Ultimately, it's a matter of the heart rather than any sort evidence or experience. Satan had full knowledge of God and still rebelled.
We do have a part to play. God offers the pardon but it's up to us to take it or not.
My agnostic friend says: "I don't need it." - How would you respond?
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Ultimately, it's a matter of the heart rather than any sort evidence or experience. Satan had full knowledge of God and still rebelled.
We do have a part to play. God offers the pardon but it's up to us to take it or not.
Isn't "a matter of the heart" experiential?
Or at least merely emotional? Not a very firm foundation.
Can we trust our emotions?
That assumes that everyone will have (did have) the opportunity. Is that true?
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He makes an interesting observation in this video. (beginning at 12:00 min)
How would you respond?
"Does this reveal a flaw in God's character?
If God is omnipotent and omniscient, but he chose to confuse his followers with the Bible, then he isn't omnibenevolent.
If God is omnipotent and omnibenevolent, but chose to confuse his followers with the Bible, then he isn't omniscient.
If God is omniscient and omnibenevolent, but chose to confuse his followers with the Bible, then he isn't omnipotent."
How would you respond?
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
He chose to confuse people with the Bible? HE chose? There's a lot of presumption going on there. What if God chose to give the Bible as a teaching tool throughout eternity? Which would mean that a full understanding of the depths and riches of the scriptures would never be realised. On this earth there is sufficient to understand in order to be saved and to get to know God as our Creator and Saviour.
The confusion comes, and there's a lot of confusion, when man gives meaning and nuances to God's word that simply isn't there. That isn't God's doing. That's on us. I could give several glaring and obvious examples that would start multiple thread branches and numerous contradictory opinions on matters and doctrines of importance.
Good post, thanks.
His presumption seems well founded in the outcome.
Perhaps we can't blame the obvious confusion about the biblical message on God, but we can't claim it isn't there.
And certainly from the position of biblical inerrancy, we could blame it on God. (but wouldn't)
If the message was inerrant, why was it delivered in a manner that resulted in confusion?
Seems like a valid question.
Yes, what if? Is that a presumption?
But I would tend to agree, we won't realize the full measure of "the depths and riches of the scriptures" in this lifetime.
Although they would be of limited use in the afterlife, I suppose. ???
Yes, it works on that level. Although there is no consensus on how that works exactly.
The debates are still raging. OSAS would be one example. Eternal security, or not?
Valid arguments on both sides. ???
Good, we both agree with the atheist on this point. There is confusion.
The question is, could a God who is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent have prevented this?
Does this not call into question those characteristics? Or what should we conclude?
I'm not worried about going off topic at this point, and that may actually be on topic really.
As long as it deals with how we answer these serious objections from agnostics and atheists.
But we could spin another topic off of this one if that seems more appropriate.
I do that all the time. Thematic topic thread chains.
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The heart is more than just our emotions; it's our thoughts, will, desires, character, etc. It's our inner person laid bare. I still think it comes down to a choice. Two people can have the same experiences and the same evidence (or lack thereof), yet one may be receptive to God and the other may not. The only difference is that one chose to accept God in faith. For the believer, no evidence is required. For the non-believer, no amount of evidence will suffice.
I believe so, assuming they lived long enough. There may be gray areas where we don't fully know how God will judge someone. We just have to trust that He will judge fairly.
Yes.
I think the judgement will be a lot more complex than we realize.
All individuals, as well as the nations and the leaders, both of government and churches/religions.
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I fully agree that emotions does not mean something is true. Let's all pray for his friend. Ask that friend about.
Romans 2:14-15
Easy-to-Read Version
14 Those who are not Jews don’t have the law. But when they naturally do what the law commands without even knowing the law, then they are their own law. This is true even though they don’t have the written law. 15 They show that in their hearts they know what is right and wrong, the same as the law commands, and their consciences agree. Sometimes their thoughts tell them that they have done wrong, and this makes them guilty. And sometimes their thoughts tell them that they have done right, and this makes them not guilty.I forget which of these fallalices he is using.
The false dilemma fallacy occurs when someone misrepresents an issue by offering only two options (when more exist) or by presenting the options as mutually exclusive (when they are not).
What is the false dilemma fallacy?
The false dilemma fallacy occurs when someone misrepresents an issue by offering only two options (when more exist) or by presenting the options as mutually exclusive (when they are not).
False Dilemma Fallacy | Examples & Definition
The false dilemma fallacy involves presenting a limited number of options as if they were the only options available. This forces people to choose between
www.scribbr.com
What is a false dichotomy your fallacy?
A dichotomy is the division of something into two distinct, separate parts. A false dichotomy fallacy uses the illusion of a dichotomy when there are other options beyond the implied two.
googled false dilemma fallacy
Will he listen to testimony of healing by someone who had their condition documented on both ends? Their is a team of Doctors who investigate and publish their findings.
Craig S. Keener
Miracles Today: The Supernatural Work of God in the Modern World
Craig S. Keener
Is Drew, in the video, actually using either a false dilemma fallacy, or a false dichotomy fallacy?What is the false dilemma fallacy?
The false dilemma fallacy occurs when someone misrepresents an issue by offering only two options (when more exist) or by presenting the options as mutually exclusive (when they are not).
What is a false dichotomy your fallacy?False Dilemma Fallacy | Examples & Definition
The false dilemma fallacy involves presenting a limited number of options as if they were the only options available. This forces people to choose between
Can you point them out?
I understand the video to be his own testimony about why he is an atheist. It's not a debate.
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I posted based on what was written. I do not have a computer with sound or CC at times.
V
I would ask him, "If you are fundmentally wrong about the truth of spirituality, would you even want to find that out?"
I'd like to challenge your friend to read all the numbered examples of paranormal experiences in my thread "My Life Journey through the Lens of My Many Charismatic and Paranormal Experiences" in the "Testimonies" section. Tell him that the most evidentiary of these experiences convinced an online agnostic friend, who was a top executive of the Federal HUD agency to at least believe in postmortem survival and the existence of a supernatural realm. Two other online agnostics converted through out dialogue, but exactly why is unclear.
I would ask him, "If you are fundmentally wrong about the truth of spirituality, would you even want to find that out?"
Thanks. I'll send the link.
Here it is for anyone else that is interested.
My Life Journey through the Lens of My Charismatic Experiences
This thread is intended to complement my other thread on speaking in tongues by focusing on some of the key charismatic and paranormal experiences that shaped my faith and thought throughout my life. These experiences will eventually illustrate what it can mean to grow up Pentecostal and how...
www.christianityboard.com
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
The scriptures as I view them, are principally a revelation of God. I don't think learning about God will ever be exhausted. I don't think the scriptures however will be the only source of understanding of course, but in context of how our lives played out and how so much of history reflected man's misconceptions about God, the Bible, as a record and eye witness testimony to truth, and mankind's Q'srejection of that testimony, will be a core part of our education methinks, and a core part of why there will never ever be another insurrection.
The just shall live by faith. There are times we must trust God despite what our senses tell us to the contrary. We can choose to believe in an incomplete study of scripture, or we can choose to trust and believe in a merciful gracious God and allow the scriptures to validate that faith.
There are already threads, some now closed but destined to be reawakened, that bring out the best and worst of believers. While I am not squeamish in entering into such discussions, having strong convictions on certain issues, sometimes we really need to have a reappraisal of our desire for truth and willingness to be taught. I see little evidence of that these days.
But, where would you like to start?
The Sabbath? Eternal conscious torment? The identity of the Antichrist? The validity of the reformation both historically and currently? Is Catholicism a cult and a form of apostasy? Eternal security? The relation between faith and works? The Godhead/trinity?
That would be appropriate to this topic.
Most unbelievers aren't much concerned about the Sabbath, identity of the Antichrist, validity of the reformation both historically and currently, Catholicism as a cult and a form of apostasy, eternal security, the relation between faith and works, the Godhead/trinity.
Although there may be some interest in those things.
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Rev. Wombat
New Member
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
I apologise, you are right. I forgot that this thread was focused on unbelievers. And you are right about ECT being of interest perhaps to unbelievers, even the reason they don't believe. The Bible presents God as one who would value our friendship and love. Even a God who sacrificed Himself for that purpose. There are many who don't believe in a God who would condone ECT. Who find it difficult to think a relationship with such a person could ever develop into one that is deeply personal, confiding, and fully trusting. Difficult to surrender to someone who promises to infinitely incinerate those He chooses to. I don't believe in that God either.
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