You have to read Gods Word and pray for the Holy Spirit so it can guide you and give you understanding on this, or the devil can deceive as we can see..
The False Doctrine of Infant Baptism
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Augustin56
Well-Known Member
So, where does the buck stop? How and when do you know that your interpretation of Scripture is correct or wrong? There are literally tens of thousands of denominations, all based on some individual's personal interpretation of Scripture. Since they felt that the difference in interpretation were different enough that they had to start a new denomination, then we must have tens of thousands of differing, contradictory interpretations of Scripture, yes?
Rella ~ I am a woman
Well-Known Member
Do you really and truly believe anyone on here just does a cursory reading of the bible. Do you not believe that most all rely on the Holy Spirit's guidance when participating?
YET... there still are few consensus.
Now y'all gonna call me a heretic or something for saying this but I almost see this misunderstandings to be
by design. Going back to the reason God scrambled their languages at the Tower of Babel.....
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO dont anyone say that was a parable and not to be believed because it was put in the Bible for our education....
So could be that in a way we all are right because for every debate here that is biblically sourced, the counterpart also has their own biblical sources.
Just look at the Reformation and Luther.... and the disagreements Calvin brought into the mix.
The very most learned of men differed... and not just those two but countless ones.
And I know the Catholics here are going to counter that is why they are the "only" church and way because of their original start...
But look what happened ... the ORTHODOX split off away from them.... because someone understood something differently.
Okay... off my musings
Rella ~ I am a woman
Well-Known Member
Augustin56
Well-Known Member
Let's use an analogy. Say we were wine connosieurs. We loved wine. And someone came up to you and offered you a glass of the world's best wine. Would you drink it? Of course! But! What if, right before they handed it to you, they put one tiny teaspoon of sewerage into it and mixed it up. Would you drink it then? No! Why? Because now it's just an expensive glass of sewerage. The Faith is an integrated whole, like a glass of wine is an integrated whole.
We have to ask ourselves, did Christ leave us a sure way to know His truths, that didn't require our personal guessing? In fact, for that matter, did He tell anyone to write a New Testament? Did he tell the Apostles, "Ok, y'all. I want you to write down what I taught you, add the existing Scriptures (Old Testament), and make as many copies of this, hand 'em out to everyone and tell them that whatever they interpret it to mean, I guarantee to be true!" That didn't happen. He gave the Apostles the entire deposit of faith, all Divine Revelation, and commanded them to go forth and teach and preach everything (orally). They, in turn, taught their successors, the bishops. As they begin dying off, they realized that Jesus wasn't coming "right" back, so they started writing down some of what they were taught.
I would argue that Christ did leave us a sure guide to His teachings. The Church. See 1 Tim 3:15 that says the Church is the "pillar and foundation of truth." It is the Church that provided the Bible. It decided which books went into the New Testament in the late 4th century. It is the Church that has Christ's authority to do this. ("Whatsoever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven...")
Rella ~ I am a woman
Well-Known Member
My point is that too many people interpret the four corners of the Holy Bible differently.
They read the same words but come away with a different understanding.
The first that comes to mind is what is the meaning of a household in a bible. The anti-infant baptism people will say there were no infants ever baptised in the bible and the pro infant baptism people will counter with what were the households of the Jailer, Lydia, Staphanus and Crispus made up with?
That kind of thing.
Not that the holy book itself is wrong but people's interpretations do not coincide with each other.
The RCC church is heavy into "works" and primarily because of James. But James was the only person in the bible who emphasized that so much.
You say the church is the "pillar and foundation of truth".
I say it should be but there are too many disagreements between denominations and if you counter back to the RCC where you have those whose are so adamantly certain that the word until means the end therefore
Mary stayed a virgin forever..... when there is not one translation I have ever read that says she did....
that is a RCC truth that simply is not substantiated.
And not knew her until that she had brought forth a son..... Greek/English interlinear
25And he did not know her sexually until she delivered her firstborn son, and she called his name Yeshua.... The Peshitta /Aramaic
But not just between Protestants and Catholics , there are church differences themselves but between Protestants.
The worst is the Baptism thing. Churches take a stand and if you belong to one opposite the other poster... watch out.
I could go on... but you get my meaning I am sure
Augustin56
Well-Known Member
Well, I don't say the Church is the "pillar and foundation of truth." St. Paul does in his first letter to Timothy. From an historical viewpoint, he could only have been talking about one Church, since there were no others.
Works are a necessary part of true, salvific faith. True faith is not mere intellectual assent. It is active. It guides how we live. See Matt. 25:31-46 where Jesus describes Judgement Day, where everyone is sent to either heaven or hell. It's all based on "works!" "I was hungry, and you gave Me to eat...", etc.
Take a 10,000 foot view of Christianity. There is, as you have pointed out, much confusion today about what's true and what's not. But that wasn't always the case. For the first 1000 years of Christianity, there was but one Church, one group, the Catholic Church. Then, in 1054 A.D., the Orthodox splintered off, but retained Apostolic Succession, and, therefore, all seven Sacraments.
Since Protestantism began, with it's man-made doctrinal pillars, Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide, there has been nothing but a constant splintering, into more and more different-believing, confused denominations. That cannot possibly be the grounding for truth. If there were any possibility of credibility to Protestantism, there would be one Protestant denomination, one set of doctrines, with everyone believing the same. But the opposite is true.
When people are doing things God's Word does not teach and they claim it's of God... yes that's wrong and deceptive!
Augustin56
Well-Known Member
Take a gander at John 3:3-5:
Jesus answered and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.”
Nicodemus said to him, “How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot reenter his mother’s womb and be born again, can he?”
Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit."
The term "born of water" refers to water Baptism. Water Baptism, therefore, according to Jesus, is a normatively necessary condition for salvation.
I think because it is a personal decision, and one can live a Christian life without be baptized as a youth. If the parents are adamant about it, ok, but still, when the age of accountability comes, the choice to follow Jesus is a persona one, and baptism is a service that shows that.I very much appreciate your account of Presbyterian Infant Baptism. It was very similar in our Lutheran denomination. Thanks much!
Why should parents wait until some subjective "age of accountability" to begin to treat their children like Christians? Should they wait until they are 21 to get Baptized before they start living the Christian life?
Rella ~ I am a woman
Well-Known Member
NO IT DOES NOT
And he never told Nick to go get immersed.
He said "3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
He said "5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
He said 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
He said 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
He said 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
And Nick asked him... 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
He said 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
Jesus knew very well that it would have been abundantly obvious to Nicodemus, a teacher of all Israel, that Jesus was surly plainly speaking of tevillah, or mikvah, or what Christians call baptism. And Jesus knew that
Nicodemus would know that the Mikvah (a ritual pool of water, used for the purpose of attaining ritual purity).
"Immersion" in connection with Repentance and to remove the impurity of sin. Also for Conversion.. and as such Jesus would have been clearer. Nicodemus, after all was looking for a conversion of sorts.
Jesus could easily have said to start there..... but he didn't
What Jesus was referring to was what we have learned from Ezekiel 36: 25-27... for this is what Nicodemus as
a master of Israel would have known.
25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
A new spirit born again with the Spirit God.
Augustin56
Well-Known Member
Water Baptism doesn't have to be by immersion. It can be by pouring or sprinkling. And Baptism more or less replaces circumcision that the Jews did to male infants.
Here's an informative article on Baptism: Dunk, Pour, or Sprinkle? How to Baptize New Testament Style
Rella ~ I am a woman
Well-Known Member
Please provide the Book, Chaopter, and Verse from any Holy Bible to support your views.
BTW.... I was baby baptised and I have had a long fight for many a year on that one.
I agree immersion is not needed but never found the sprinkling other then Ezekiel
Augustin56
Well-Known Member
Fair enough. I like that you're a thinker. That'll get you far.
Here's an article that explains what you're seeking: Dunk, Pour, or Sprinkle? How to Baptize New Testament Style
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Rella is stuck on the question WHO IS IN A HOUSEHOLD .
When in truth the question is WHO CAN BE BAPTIZED.
you see the RCC tries to use the example of the jailor and his household being baptized
as a means for infant baptism to be justifed .
Walk into many houses . You will notice some have OLDER children , their children are no longer infants
In some houses you do have infants . In some its both or in some housholds you have no children .
BUT , WHO CAN BE BATPIZED can BE PROVED IN THE BIBLE .
Rella ducked my response on this one .
You see the eunach asked a real good question to phillip .
The enuach had seen water and said , LOOK here is water , what does HINDER ME , PREVENT ME , from being baptized .
AND PHILLIP TOLD HIM , IF YE BELIEVE WITH ALL YOUR HEART , YOU MAY BE .
OOOPS . babies dont know anything . and not all houses even have babies any more as they grew into children .
BUT WHO CAN BE BAPTIZED STILL REMAINS . THOSE WHO DO BELIEVE can BE . RELLA NO LIKEY MY RESPONSE
he ducked it and ran and then continues his facade of WHO or what does a household consist of .
EXACTLY . HE IS and has been stumped and he ignored my response rather than even trying to debate it .
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
I suppose you have to live through the experience to fully understand it. I was baptized as an infant and raised in Christianity. In my adolescence I assumed I was a Christian but had hard choices to make between continuing to follow Christ or to follow the world.
I've also raised a child in Christianity from birth, and our pastors would not baptize her as a child. They wanted her to make a personal decision. That made her look like she was regarded as a non-Christian.
She has also had hard choices to make in her adolescence and in her young adulthood. However, she has ultimately decided to become a more committed Christian. Water Baptism seems to have played no more role in my experience than appearances.
Sometimes folk who are baptized as infants don't have the same experience. I still maintain that you can raise your child as you please, but a relationship with Jesus is personal, and you cannot dictate the outcome for another.
it doesn't make her a non christian if she wasn't baptized as a child.
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
If you believed a person would go to heaven if they aren't baptized, would you have your children baptized as soon as possible?
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
That was my point. It is just a "Dedication Service," designed as a commitment by the parents to raise the child up with Christian instruction. The child, as he or she grows, has to make the hard decisions for himself or herself.
But importantly, parents must *not,;* as Christians, put off raising the child as a Christian until some unknown "age of accountability." We should have no fear in sharing the proposition that God is real, Christ is real, and Salvation is a real offer. We should not try to "drive faith" into a child. But we can responsibly teach what Christ commands as Deity.
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