Who are the sons of God and the daughters of men

[CadyandZoe]

This argument shows you are as decieved as Eve was by Satan. The argument that shows you won't die, because you are already a dead sinner separated from God.

So God was just putting up with them in their sin?

I wish you would prove your accusations.

 

[Timtofly]

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
— Revelation 1:20

There’s some scripture that conflicts with what you’re stating. The angels of the seven churches received epistles from John.

Is your point that John never actually gave a copy of the book of Revelation to any human? Then I guess you can explain how any one received a copy of the book then, and how it was distributed.

If your argument means angels were actually on earth as the leaders of these churches instead of humans, then you must think John was not even born a human but was a mere angel himself like Paul? Evidently God allows humans to be able to kill even angels?

I guess you can justify your erroneous doctrine that states God allows some angels to leave their estate and live on earth, based on the symbolism in the book of Revelation?

Personally I don't see stars as humans do, just bodies of gas out there in the cosmos. Do you think all those stars a few hundred miles away from the surface of the earth make up a gigantic universe or just a lot of angels only a few hundred miles above the earth? Why would a star/angel not stand as a guard or representative over a church, in the spiritual fight of demonic forces sent by Satan to destroy that church? Ephesians 6:12

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

Don't you think humans can, in prayer and obedience to God, wrestle against demonic forces, or do some humans have to be literal angels?

I think the point was that John was supposed to write what he saw. Even if what he wrote was to be given to an actual angel. That still is not proof angels are humans, nor sons of God. It could mean that Satan has the whole world deceived about the stars and some non existing universe. This virtual universe that will dissolve at the Second Coming, along with the erroneous notion angels are the sons of God.

Angels are the stars created on the 4th Day.

The sons of God are adamkind/humankind created on the 6th Day.

That is why in Job we are told the angels sang, and the humans shouted back that first week of creation. Obviously humans were giants compared to Adam's dead state that he was placed in after he disobeyed God, and thus introduced sin into creation, that had not been there prior to Adam's disobedience. Adam did physically die. He was no longer a son of God, but now the father of dead corruptible flesh. As a son of God, Adam was not a sinner. Now in dead corruptible flesh, Adam lived in the bondage of sin and death. Adam and Eve passed that state of physical death on to Seth, and all their offspring after Seth.

"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:"

Adam was no longer a son of God, and passed the image of sin and death on to Seth.

The other point is that male offspring of Adam and Eve cannot carry a conception to term in their womb. Thus not viable to the sons of God. The daughters, or female offspring could carry a conception to to term.

 

[Timtofly]

I wish you would prove your accusations.

Because all you did was repeat what Eve was thinking, while decieved by Satan. Reread your argument and compare it to Eve's, why she should disobey God.

Eve disobeyed God. But that did not bring them death. Obviously she did not die when she touched the fruit, because she was still alive to hand it to Adam after she already ate.

But they did die when Adam chose to eat, because Adam's disobedience caused death. Adam brought sin into the world, not Eve. Sin happened because of Adam's disobedience. Adam did not disobey, because sin was already in the world. Sin was the result, not the cause. Adam's disobedience was the cause, not the result.

There was literally no death, until that point. Nothing had ever died. Not even a seed in the ground to bring forth new plants. Not a single plant nor tree had ever died, thus never needed replacing. The seeds and fruit is what every other life form on earth and in the water ate for nourishment. That is even if nourishment was necessary. Obviously that diet prevented any seed or fruit from germinating and overrunning the earth with new plants and trees. That was the balance stated in:

"And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so."

"And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground."

So nothing wild nor planted by sons of God ever started any new plants nor trees. Then God planted a Garden somewhere were no sons of God lived, and placed Adam in that garden alone. Adam was a son of God separated from all others, thus that made him alone.

Then God brought all the animals for Adam to name. Adam was still alone. We see time passing before even God separated Adam into two genders. Time past where there was no sin nor death.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Because all you did was repeat what Eve was thinking, while decieved by Satan. Reread your argument and compare it to Eve's, why she should disobey God.

What part of my argument is in view here? I don't know, but perhaps you have never heard about the fact that people are not likely to believe a bold-faced lie. But they might believe a lie shrouded in the truth. Satan mixed a lie with truth to deceive Eve. What I said in my argument is the true part of what Eve thought. Was it true that eating from the tree would make someone wise? Yes. What did Eve learn after she ate from the tree? She is a sinner.

Eve disobeyed God. But that did not bring them death.

Yes it did. The day she ate of the tree she was under God's condemnation.

Obviously she did not die when she touched the fruit, because she was still alive to hand it to Adam after she already ate.

Eve was not forbidden to touch the fruit. She added that part.

But they did die when Adam chose to eat, because Adam's disobedience caused death. Adam brought sin into the world, not Eve.

Eve brought sin into the world, but God held Adam responsible because Adam is the head of the family.

Sin happened because of Adam's disobedience.

No, rather, Adam's disobedience was a sin.

Adam did not disobey, because sin was already in the world.

Adam disobeyed because sin was in him.

Sin was the result, not the cause. Adam's disobedience was the cause, not the result.

A choice isn't free unless it reflects who the person is. Adam's choice to disobey reflected something about him personally: his hopes, desires, dreams, preferences, likes, values, expectations, etc. Before Adam disobeyed, he was already the kind of person who would disobey if given the chance. God gave him the chance and he took it, proving what kind of person Adam was.

There was literally no death, until that point. Nothing had ever died. Not even a seed in the ground to bring forth new plants. Not a single plant nor tree had ever died, thus never needed replacing. The seeds and fruit is what every other life form on earth and in the water ate for nourishment. That is even if nourishment was necessary. Obviously that diet prevented any seed or fruit from germinating and overrunning the earth with new plants and trees.

We don't know that.

 

[David in NJ]

The declaration is in scripture, but it isn’t where David could ever find it.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
— 1 John 3:9-11
This also applies to biological females.

Excellent - thank you for the reminder

 

[Timtofly]

Was it true that eating from the tree would make someone wise? Yes. What did Eve learn after she ate from the tree? She is a sinner.

She was a sinner because Adam disobeyed God. Not because she ate some fruit. She was not a sinner, until Adam disobeyed God.

They were now in a state of death, and not life. That is how they happened to notice they were different. They were different. They lost their former physical body, and their spirit was removed from them. All they were left with was a soul and a dead body, that would eventually turn to dust.

Adam's choice to disobey reflected something about him personally.

Sure, he wanted to do the same thing she did, except it only counted when Adam disobeyed God.

 

[Timtofly]

We don't know that.

Of course we do. The explicit Word of God tells us that truth.

 

[CadyandZoe]

She was a sinner because Adam disobeyed God.

No, we are all responsible for our own sins. Eve knew herself to be a sinner because she sinned.

They were now in a state of death, and not life.

If by "death" you mean the effects of moral depravity, I agree with you.

That is how they happened to notice they were different.

Yes, the passage says that they noticed their nakedness. But that was not a new experience for them. How could they avoid seeing each other naked? Why did they attempt to hide from God? For the first time in their life, they felt guilt and shame when God was around. Their mortality was no basis for shame or guilt. The basis for their guilt was disobedience.

They were different. They lost their former physical body, and their spirit was removed from them. All they were left with was a soul and a dead body, that would eventually turn to dust.

We have no scripture to prove your assertions.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Of course we do. The explicit Word of God tells us that truth.

You argue from silence. Just because the scriptures don't say anything about the death of animals or trees, it doesn't mean that animals or trees didn't die.

But if Adam and Eve had not experienced the death of animals, then this is how God's commandment would sound to them.

The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely [whah, whah, whah] ” And Adam would ask God, "What does whah, whah, whah mean?"

You see, Adam needed to have witnessed death firsthand to understand God's warning about death. Without experiencing death, a warning about dying is incomprehensible.

 

[Timtofly]

No, we are all responsible for our own sins. Eve knew herself to be a sinner because she sinned.

If by "death" you mean the effects of moral depravity, I agree with you.

Yes, the passage says that they noticed their nakedness. But that was not a new experience for them. How could they avoid seeing each other naked? Why did they attempt to hide from God? For the first time in their life, they felt guilt and shame when God was around. Their mortality was no basis for shame or guilt. The basis for their guilt was disobedience.


We have no scripture to prove your assertions.

Of course we do. God said they would die. When they became death they saw themselves without that body of life. They saw themselves without a spirit. They saw themselves in death. They did die just as God claimed they would. Now you and all of us live in that state of death.

They hid their changed selves. Where is the verse claiming they had guilt, instead of actually dying like God stated? Did God state they would die, or just have guilt?

 

[Timtofly]

You argue from silence. Just because the scriptures don't say anything about the death of animals or trees, it doesn't mean that animals or trees didn't die.

But if Adam and Eve had not experienced the death of animals, then this is how God's commandment would sound to them.

The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely [whah, whah, whah] ” And Adam would ask God, "What does whah, whah, whah mean?"

You see, Adam needed to have witnessed death firsthand to understand God's warning about death. Without experiencing death, a warning about dying is incomprehensible.

No one witnessed death until Adam and Eve died that day. You are arguing from silence claiming death had to happen even though it was never mentioned.

Death comes from sin. Romans 5:12

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

Not even a seed died in the ground. Unless you don't believe Paul who uses a seed dying in the ground to produce a new body, as an example.

"Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body."

God's Word states that no seed sprang out of the ground a new plant or tree. And no human tilled the ground planting seeds. The plants never died, themselves, but kept producing seeds over and over like the trees. Do you think God was lying when God's Word stated nothing died?

Or do you need to justify what you think Adam did not know, so he had no faith in his obedience to God. Faith is obeying God without knowing the outcome. If Adam knew the outcome why is faith necessary? Faith is also part of obedience that pleases God.

We know they had not been killing animals for clothing, because God had to show them how now, even animals would have to die, for clothing.

Still baffled that you all think God created this world with sin and death rampant and part of every day life.

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

 

[David in NJ]

Of course we do. God said they would die. When they became death they saw themselves without that body of life. They saw themselves without a spirit. They saw themselves in death. They did die just as God claimed they would. Now you and all of us live in that state of death.

They hid their changed selves. Where is the verse claiming they had guilt, instead of actually dying like God stated? Did God state they would die, or just have guilt?

The guilt is the death = spiritual death

 

[CadyandZoe]

Of course we do. God said they would die. When they became death they saw themselves without that body of life. They saw themselves without a spirit. They saw themselves in death. They did die just as God claimed they would. Now you and all of us live in that state of death.

They hid their changed selves. Where is the verse claiming they had guilt, instead of actually dying like God stated? Did God state they would die, or just have guilt?

I don't see any of that in the scriptures. Where do you get such ideas?

 

[CadyandZoe]

No one witnessed death until Adam and Eve died that day.

Provide the scripture.

You are arguing from silence claiming death had to happen even though it was never mentioned.

What is wrong with my argument?

Death comes from sin. Romans 5:12

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

Are you just taking Paul's word for it, or can you see from Genesis where he is getting his ideas?

When we examine the Genesis account, we all note the fact that Adam and Eve didn't die the day they ate from the Tree. This becomes the basis of much speculation concerning what God meant by "die" in that context. One only needs to read the passage in the original Hebrew or look up the phrase "surely die" in the Hebrew lexicon. The English translator employed the word "surely" in an attempt to give due emphasis on the double mention of "die" in that verse. A better translation would be "dying you shall die."

There are two distinct ways in which the term "die" is understood: 1) as the suffering, misery, futility, disease, psychosis, and pain caused by sin, and 2) as physical death.

To rephrase what God said to Adam, he warned him that eating from the fruit would bring him all the pain, frustration, and futility associated with sin, which is a kind of death, until his physical death.

According to the story, God warned Adam that he would face difficulties and struggles in life. Similarly, God told Eve that she would experience sorrow and pain due to the sinful ways of her children. While the birth process itself was not mentioned to be painful, the pain would arise from living in a world plagued by greed, malice, envy, jealousy, and other negative emotions.

God's Word states that no seed sprang out of the ground a new plant or tree.

I don't see this in the scriptures.

And no human tilled the ground planting seeds.

The fact that agriculture came after creation doesn't mean that trees didn't bear fruit with seeds or that plants didn't germinate and propagate naturally.

 

[Timtofly]

The guilt is the death = spiritual death

Provide a verse if so inclined to flex your human philosophical opinion.

 

[Timtofly]

Provide the scripture.

What is wrong with my argument?

Are you just taking Paul's word for it, or can you see from Genesis where he is getting his ideas?

When we examine the Genesis account, we all note the fact that Adam and Eve didn't die the day they ate from the Tree. This becomes the basis of much speculation concerning what God meant by "die" in that context. One only needs to read the passage in the original Hebrew or look up the phrase "surely die" in the Hebrew lexicon. The English translator employed the word "surely" in an attempt to give due emphasis on the double mention of "die" in that verse. A better translation would be "dying you shall die."

There are two distinct ways in which the term "die" is understood: 1) as the suffering, misery, futility, disease, psychosis, and pain caused by sin, and 2) as physical death.

To rephrase what God said to Adam, he warned him that eating from the fruit would bring him all the pain, frustration, and futility associated with sin, which is a kind of death, until his physical death.

According to the story, God warned Adam that he would face difficulties and struggles in life. Similarly, God told Eve that she would experience sorrow and pain due to the sinful ways of her children. While the birth process itself was not mentioned to be painful, the pain would arise from living in a world plagued by greed, malice, envy, jealousy, and other negative emotions.


I don't see this in the scriptures.

The fact that agriculture came after creation doesn't mean that trees didn't bear fruit with seeds or that plants didn't germinate and propagate naturally.

You don't understand this concept of death and separation from God.

They did die, and were separated from God, physically and spiritually.

God's restoration is the reversal of this death.

 

[David in NJ]

Provide a verse if so inclined to flex your human philosophical opinion.

Numbers 18:9
A portion of the most holy offerings reserved from the fire will be yours. From all the offerings they render to Me as most holy offerings, whether grain offerings or sin offerings or guilt offerings, that part belongs to you and your sons.

2 Chronicles 28:13
“You must not bring the captives here,” they said, “for you are proposing to bring guilt upon us from the LORD and to add to our sins and our guilt. For our guilt is great, and fierce anger is upon Israel.”

GOOD NEWS = "HE will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." - 1 Cor 1:8

 

[David in NJ]

Good Night

 

[CadyandZoe]

You don't understand this concept of death and separation from God.

They did die, and were separated from God, physically and spiritually.

God's restoration is the reversal of this death.

Separation isn't death. When I went on business trips, Zoe and I were separated, but I wasn't dead.

Where in the Bible does it associate death with separation? People say stuff like this all the time, but they don't think it through.
Sin DOES create separation between the sinner and God, but the Bible refers to this as "enmity," not "death." We see this most clearly in the writings of Paul, who highlights the fact that through the cross of Christ we now have peace with God. We were once enemies of God, but we are now friends.

Romans 5:11 -- And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

2 Corinthians 5:19 -- namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Adam and Eve didn't die on the day they ate the fruit. Rather, on the day they ate the fruit they became enemies of God. And for that reason, God removed them from the garden of Eden. And what was the result?

Genesis 3:24 -- So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

God drove the man out of the garden, cutting him off from the tree of life. Adam began dying at that moment.

Revelation 22:14 -- Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.

Those who want access to the tree of life must reconcile with God. And God will reconcile with anyone who believes in his son Jesus Christ.

 

[David in NJ]

Provide a verse if so inclined to flex your human philosophical opinion.

From a 'philosophical' point of view, you have shared some very good thoughts from the word of Truth.
Some that i fully agree with and find to be truthful and accurate.

Others need to be refined in the 'fire' of God's Truth so that any dross can be removed.