Who are the sons of God and the daughters of men

[CadyandZoe]

@CadyandZoe says: "My argument is this: God wanted Adam to know himself, so He placed a tree in the garden and commanded Adam to abstain from eating the fruit. However, Adam ate from the tree and showed that he was capable and willing to sin. Therefore, Adam was not created without sin."

EXCELLENT thought process - now let's SEE what God says because your argument is noteworthy and God has His reply.

Hebrews 4:14-16
Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses,
but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Take this to the LORD in prayer and ask Him to increase your understanding (which is what i do - Psalm 51:6).
Then share with me in Light of this scripture and the others we have been looking at.

Peace and Blessing upon you Today in the LORD Jesus Christ = while it is still TODAY

What's your point? Why use Jesus as your evidence that Adam was without sin. Makes no sense.

 

[Waiting on him]

It appears that God declares some humans to be his sons, so I cannot argue from Genesis that angels mated with humans.

Genesis is an allegorical story in which God declares to Moses what will be completed in the first century.
My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
— Galatians 4:19
Paul in my opinion is a messenger/angel of God. It is Spiritually performed.

 

[Waiting on him]

What's your point? Why use Jesus as your evidence that Adam was without sin. Makes no sense.

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
— 1 Timothy 2:14-15
What do we do with the women unable to conceive?

 

[David in NJ]

What's your point? Why use Jesus as your evidence that Adam was without sin. Makes no sense.

Every artist knows the benefits and function of 'contrast.'

God is the Artist of Life.

Watch how He, the Spirit of Truth, uses art/contrast = 1 Corinthians ch15

v20-22
But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

v45-49
And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

 

[David in NJ]

None of those passages say that Adam was without sin.

No one dies spiritually. That isn't a Biblical idea.

God said Adam was created without sin, just as those passages declare and MORE.

 

[Waiting on him]

God said Adam was created without sin, just as those passages declare and MORE.

This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
— Genesis 5:1-2
Which Adam?

 

[BlessedPeace]

Logic is trapped inside a cranium
If you look to find it you may need some germanium
Whereas Faith in His Word makes us look like dumb turds
Only in the eyes of those whose logic is for the birds

Faith in His Word is the Real Deal
My Father said so and that is why i Kneel
Trust in Him like a little Child - do it Today
For our Heavenly Father will Smile as He shows you the Way

The Creator who made the world and all things
He is so Smart that He did not even use a graph or a Chart
Nor did He need man for any Part
His Plans were spoken in Truth and Love
Don't you know that the Spirit is a Dove

In this poem all THREE can be seen
That is, if you Know what i mean
So when you look up at the moon, stars and sun
Always remember where the Light comes From

When you can't answer a straight forward question you make truth appear as bad for your digestion.

 

[David in NJ]

When you can't answer a straight forward question you make truth appear as bad for your digestion.

If i answer Straight
it is sure to bring out Hate
when people are in the dark
NASA can say 'look into the lark'
this they will do as they await
you know who - the Man of Hate


"many will be offended and hate one another" - Matt ch24

 

[Timtofly]

i only accept God's words and i reject human theology.

Matt 4:4 - "Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the Mouth of God."

Jude 1:6 - But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

1 Peter 2:4-6
For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

Yes, humans have been punished for disobedience right along side of angels. Do you have a point, based on human theology that because angels sin, they automatically become sons of God?

Your verses do not prove that angels became human and thus were no longer angels but sons of God. No species of creation can change into another species of creation.

Adam stopped being a son of God, but was still human like all the other sons of God. Adam physically put on death, that is why we are born into death, and not into the without death form, son of God.

Because all were humans, they could procreate, life with death. But life did not restore death back to life. The offspring became death, and took on all that death gave a human, nature wise.

"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth."

God was talking about those sons of God who became wicked, as the result of mixing life with death. He called them humans, not angels. He did not bind them with chains of darkness. He destroyed their physical bodies in a Flood, and their soul and spirit went to sheol.

The angels were bound in darkness in their only form, as an angel. Angels do not have a soul, body, and spirit. They can look like humans, but are not human, nor sons of God. Human beings restored out of death back into life is becoming sons of God.

 

[Waiting on him]

The angels were bound in darkness in their only form, as an angel. Angels do not have a soul, body, and spirit. They can look like humans, but are not human, nor sons of God. Human beings restored out of death back into life is becoming sons of God.

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
— Revelation 1:20

There’s some scripture that conflicts with what you’re stating. The angels of the seven churches received epistles from John.

 

[CadyandZoe]

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
— 1 Timothy 2:14-15
What do we do with the women unable to conceive?

Paul was discussing a common saying in the church which highlighted the irony associated with women. On one hand, a woman was responsible for bringing sin into the world, but on the other hand, a woman would give birth to the Savior of the world. Paul agreed with the saying, but he added that women should continue to practice "sobriety," which is a translation of the Greek word "sophrosyne."

Paul encountered women in Corinth and Ephesus who were trying to behave like men. They were unhappy about being created female and wanted to control their husbands. However, Paul argued that if a woman wants to be saved, she needs to embrace the virtue of "sophrosyne". This means accepting her place as defined by God, with humility and quietness. Sophrosyne is a requirement for salvation according to Paul. For a more detailed understanding of the concept, please refer to Jack's paper.

The point is not that women are saved through childbearing. The point is that women are saved through the virtues of faith, charity, and holiness with "sophrosyne." Mary, a woman, already bore the savior. But all women must practice sophrosyne, even those who cannot bear a child.

___________________________
"The Miracle of Sophrosyne" Jack Crabtree

"Sophrosune is the virtue of enlightened self-acceptance, a self-acceptance based on an accurate understanding of who one really is, a self-acceptance which results in a humble and settled contentment with and pursuit of one’s destined role in human existence.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Every artist knows the benefits and function of 'contrast.'

God is the Artist of Life.

Watch how He, the Spirit of Truth, uses art/contrast = 1 Corinthians ch15

v20-22
But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

v45-49
And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

I understand what Paul means. But I was asking you about the point YOU are making. These passages don't speak to your point. "I am aware that some people believe that since God declared man to be "perfect," it logically means that humans must be sinless. However, I argue that freedom of will inherently implies having motives, such as dreams, hopes, values, wishes, desires, and goals. Given that Adam disobeyed God, and given that he had the ability to make his own choice, it follows that Adam was created with desires and values that were contrary to the will of God. This, in my opinion, is an unavoidable conclusion."

Paul's argument is that Christ has triumphed over death and has been granted the authority to bestow life upon those who are "in him". By "in him", he refers to his followers who demonstrate unwavering faith and possess the spirit of Christ, which evokes the cry of "Abba Father".

 

[CadyandZoe]

God said Adam was created without sin, just as those passages declare and MORE.

Where is God's declaration recorded?

 

[Waiting on him]

Paul was discussing a common saying in the church which highlighted the irony associated with women. On one hand, a woman was responsible for bringing sin into the world, but on the other hand, a woman would give birth to the Savior of the world. Paul agreed with the saying, but he added that women should continue to practice "sobriety," which is a translation of the Greek word "sophrosyne."

Paul encountered women in Corinth and Ephesus who were trying to behave like men. They were unhappy about being created female and wanted to control their husbands. However, Paul argued that if a woman wants to be saved, she needs to embrace the virtue of "sophrosyne". This means accepting her place as defined by God, with humility and quietness. Sophrosyne is a requirement for salvation according to Paul. For a more detailed understanding of the concept, please refer to Jack's paper.

The point is not that women are saved through childbearing. The point is that women are saved through the virtues of faith, charity, and holiness with "sophrosyne." Mary, a woman, already bore the savior. But all women must practice sophrosyne, even those who cannot bear a child.

___________________________
"The Miracle of Sophrosyne" Jack Crabtree

"Sophrosune is the virtue of enlightened self-acceptance, a self-acceptance based on an accurate understanding of who one really is, a self-acceptance which results in a humble and settled contentment with and pursuit of one’s destined role in human existence.

Paul made it very clear for me there is no ethnicity or gender or social status in the body of Christ.
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
— Galatians 3:26-28
Jack is divided.
Paul further explains what is to be a MAN in the body of Christ.
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
— Ephesians 4:13

This is what is being misunderstood.

That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
— Ephesians 4:14-16
In the beginning when God created them He created them male and female, and he called their name ADAM

 

[Waiting on him]

Where is God's declaration recorded?

The declaration is in scripture, but it isn’t where David could ever find it.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
— 1 John 3:9-11
This also applies to biological females.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Paul made it very clear for me there is no ethnicity or gender or social status in the body of Christ.

With regard to salvation, that is true. But the Apostles taught that God-ordained family relationships including marriage, and parental obligations. Ephesians 5 and 6.

Paul further explains what is to be a MAN in the body of Christ.

In that context, Paul employs Christ's physical body as a metaphor to represent all of those who are "in Christ", i.e his followers. The term "perfect" translates the Greek word "telos", which refers to the maturity of the body, i.e. grown up. When a person grows up physically, that person is "telos."

 

[David in NJ]

Where is God's declaration recorded?

Genesis chapter 1

Let me know if you cannot find it.

 

[David in NJ]

Where is God's declaration recorded?

Genesis chapters 1 -3

Which is confirmed by the Gospel , Romans , 1 Corinthians , Ephesians

 

[Timtofly]

I understand that.

These passages prove that Adam was a sinner. They don't prove that Adam was created without sin.

Correct me if I am wrong, but your argument is this. Sin was not in the world until Adam sinned. Adam was created before Adam sinned. Therefore, Adam was created without sin.

I can definitely help you with that! Here's a clearer version of the text you provided:

My argument is this: God wanted Adam to know himself, so He placed a tree in the garden and commanded Adam to abstain from eating the fruit. However, Adam ate from the tree and showed that he was capable and willing to sin. Therefore, Adam was not created without sin.

The tree in question was called "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil". Its name indicated that consuming its fruit would bring wisdom to the one who ate it. As a matter of fact, eating from the tree exposed the true character of Adam and Eve. Both of them disobeyed God by eating from the tree, which revealed a crucial aspect of their personalities. Their decision to eat from the tree was indicative of their character. In this manner, they gained wisdom and learned something true about themselves. They were both sinners.

This argument shows you are as decieved as Eve was by Satan. The argument that shows you won't die, because you are already a dead sinner separated from God.

So God was just putting up with them in their sin?

 

[David in NJ]

The declaration is in scripture, but it isn’t where David could ever find it.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
— 1 John 3:9-11
This also applies to biological females.

Excellent - thank you for the reminder