What Old Covenant Laws are the New Covenant believer to obey?

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BarneyFife

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You mentioned you were age-d, so I thought you might be interested in knowing, in case you haven't heard, cocoa reverses age related memory loss. I actually think it's a lot better to have the organic cocoa nibs--more intense brain boost, and a lot safer, bc, in the processing (creation of cocoa powder), metal machines are used to crush the stuff, and, apparently, that also crushes the metal machine, itself, releasing it into the cocoa, so, a lot of prepared cocoa has heavy metal contamination. So, cocoa nibs are an all around better Cocoa choice IMO.

Enjoy!


Thank you. My memory has always been bad, except for trivial, useless stuff. I had Attention Deficit Disorder before they had a name for it. It got me a lot of attention - lol. Heavy metals are bad stuff. They're finding more and more of them in fish, of all things. My main problem is that my thoughts are disorganized and I type too slowly. I can't have cocoa because of the caffeine and theobromine, which triggers my PSVT (Paroxysmal Supraventricular Tachycardia—nasty stuff, but rarely life-threatening), which I've had practically from birth. But my doctor says I'm in excellent overall health, and could possibly live to be 100 with my family history and lifestyle. I try to live according to the NEWSTART health and wellness acronym that's in my signature.

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BarneyFife

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You mentioned you were age-d, so I thought you might be interested in knowing, in case you haven't heard, cocoa reverses age related memory loss. I actually think it's a lot better to have the organic cocoa nibs--more intense brain boost, and a lot safer, bc, in the processing (creation of cocoa powder), metal machines are used to crush the stuff, and, apparently, that also crushes the metal machine, itself, releasing it into the cocoa, so, a lot of prepared cocoa has heavy metal contamination. So, cocoa nibs are an all around better Cocoa choice IMO.

Enjoy!


I don't know how interested you are in health but I heard recently that if you are caffeine-free you can get as much alertness and energy benefits from watermelon or watermelon juice as you can from several cups of coffee without the wired feeling and the error potential. (They did a study once on typists that showed they could type faster with caffeine but made more mistakes.)

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Big Boy Johnson

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It is important with friends to be always ready to correct them so they won't ever want to talk about religion. I know that's what I always look for in a friend.

You definitely need a friend that loves you enough to ... correct you!

Those that don't love others, don't care if they get caught up in error or not so they wouldn't bother saying anything.
 

BarneyFife

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You definitely need a friend that loves you enough to ... correct you!

If I have to depend on you to advise me as to what I need, I've become hopeless.

If you could correct in some way other than evasion, denial, doubling down, mocking emoticons, etc., or the dispensationalism you erroneously call "the New Covenant," we might have something serious to talk about.

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BarneyFife

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Yeah, some folks just not a fan of the new thing the Father has done thru Jesus Christ... that's unfortunate for them.

The Lamb of God was "slain from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8).

God promised to put enmity between the serpent and the woman as early as Genesis 3:15.

There is nothing new under the sun (Ecclesiastes 1:9).

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GracePeace

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It seems to me that you're using a rule of expression I don't necessarily see dictated here. I can't see any requirement that if we're not condemned by the law then we must therefore be condemned by grace. I certainly see the possibility of such expression, which is common enough but what if the emphasis is on what we are affected by (bad or good) rather than how it affects us? For law can, by nature, condemn, but grace never invokes such a thing. Couldn't "under the law" mean condemned by the "law of sin and death" spoken of in Romans 8:2, which simply refers to the fact that "the wages of sin is death" as stated in Romans 6:23?

Peter himself claims that Paul wrote many things that are hard to understand, and yet I notice that many people handle his writings as if any 5-year-old child could easily grasp them. I wouldn't confine Paul's sophisticated intellect to any type of expression. I have asked before if anyone would volunteer some passage from Pauline text that they find virtually impossible to understand and I never get any response. I wouldn't study Romans 7 and 8 together for years because there were so many interpretations of it circulating, none of which I could settle on or improve on.

I confess I don't have the virtually allergic reaction to the word "law" that many seem to have today. When I was a child "law" was something that kept people safe and free to live prosperous lives. The church I grew up in (Southern Baptist) held the Ten Commandments in the highest regard and kept Sunday significantly "holier" than it is today.

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1a. If under in "under Law" means "condemned by", then that would render the phrase "condemned by Law"... but that would also force you to read "under Grace" as "condemned by Grace"--and, importantly, it wouldn't go very far in explaining why that arrangement would result in us not being "mastered by sin" (as that is what the verse is teaching).

1b. If I am correct in defining "Law" as "the Law of Moses/God", then we would expect that someone who IS "under Law" WOULD be "mastered by sin". Isn't the unsaved Jew, depicted in Romans 7, who is "under Law", "mastered" by (ie, a "slave" to) sin?
Yes : among other things, he is sold under slavery by sin.
Why?
"The Law came in that the transgression might abound", and "When we were in the flesh, the sinful desires, aroused by the Law", and, as 1 Cor 15 says, "the Law is the strength of sin".

2. The "Law" spoken of (in "under Law") is unquestionably the Law of Moses, because this formulation ("under the Law") is used elsewhere:
i. 1 Corinthians 9
19For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. 20To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law

Obviously, "those under the Law" are Jews--and they are "under the Law of Moses". The term "under" means "under the jurisdiction of"--the Law of Moses dictates how they are to live.
There are other examples of this formulation that could be given, but you get the point.

ii. The Pharisees of today (and Paul was a Pharisee), basing their beliefs on the ancient Talmudic traditions that were being formulated in Paul's days, and in days that came before his, actually espouse the same belief that "death frees a Jew from the Law" expounded by Paul in Romans 7:1-6

Niddah 61b
Our Rabbis taught: A garment in which kil'ayim4 was lost5 may not be sold to an idolater,6 nor may one make of it a packsaddle for an ass, but it may be made into7 a shroud for a corpse. R. Joseph observed: This8 implies that the commandments will be abolished in the Hereafter.9 Said Abaye (or as some say R. Dimi) to him: But did not R. Manni10 in the name of R. Jannai state, 'This8 was learnt only in regard to the time of the lamentations11 but for burial12 this is forbidden'?13 — The other replied: But was it not stated in connection with it, 'R. Johanan ruled: Even for burial'? And thereby R. Johanan followed his previously expressed view, for R. Johanan stated: 'What is the purport of the Scriptural text, Free14 among the dead?15 As soon as a man dies he is free from the commandments'.

Except for the fact that Paul bases his argument on Torah Law, it is essentially the same. He argues that the Jewish believers have died with Christ, and that that death has effected their freedom from the Law. "Through the Law, I died to the Law" Gal 2:19 means "The Law Itself demands my freedom from it--my freedom from the Law is totally legit. It's demanded by the Law." This is how he could affirm that he "walked orderly and kept Torah" without being a liar--he couldn't blow his cover in Jerusalem, the center of Jewish living, but, since those who walk after the Spirit keep its righteous requirements (Ro 8:4), and since his freedom from the Law IS "orderly" and "in accordance with the Law", he could affirm that without lying and without blowing his cover/destroying his opportunity to witness to the Jews.

It doesn't mean the Law is bad, and it doesn't mean sin is good, it just means there is a new means of serving God--ie, the Spirit of Grace. To the point, the Gentile believers are deemed "doers of the Law" without knowing the Law (Ro 2:13-15, 26, 27). by dint of this new method of service (the Spirit of Grace writing the Law on their hearts--the fulfillment of the New Covenant promise).

How ever anyone wants to work this doctrine out, the result must be holiness, taking care of one's neighbor, because those who have Grace fulfill the Law's righteous requirements.

3. The difference between "works of the Law" and "justified by works" (James) is that "works of the Law" are "a righteousness of my own", but "justified by works" refers to working God's works, abiding in Christ by walking in faith so that "God Is My Righteousness".
Paul, in Galatians, says the Galatians are wrong for being "under Law" (Gal 4:21)--he doesn't direct them to "Christ alone", he instructs them to "through love serve one another". Christ's Name is "God Is Our Righteousness". God is love. Faith works by love. Therefore, the person who is walking by faith the Spirit works in his heart is walking in love and God is his righteousness. He is a "doer of the Law", and is justified, but if he does what he doubts, he is "condemned" (Ro 14:23).

4. There are some issues with this explanation that I haven't gotten worked out, but I'm not uncertain about what I've said.

Paul does say, "Children, obey your parents in the Lord which is the first command with a promise". What's the difference between Paul issuing the command, and them reading it in the Law?
Paul says "in the Lord"--as elsewhere, he stipulates that one's life is to be lived "as unto the Lord", and we "abide in the Lord" by keeping the two commands to believe in His Name and to love one another (1 Jn 3:23, 24). We love others when we're living according to our convictions (Ro 1:17, 14:5, 23): "My righteous one will live by faith, but if my righteous One draws back, My soul will have no pleasure in him" ("without faith it is impossible to please God"). So, as we are abiding in the Lord, we are to obey our parents, which sounds like "Don't stop abiding in the Lord because of this, don't let your parents pull you away from the Lord with anything they say or direct you to do, but... don't be unaware that honoring your parents, while you're retaining your God-given convictions before the Lord, has a blessing attached to it."

So, yeah, that is a little "problematic", but it doesn't at all break the deal.
 
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GracePeace

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I don't know how interested you are in health but I heard recently that if you are caffeine-free you can get as much alertness and energy benefits from watermelon or watermelon juice as you can from several cups of coffee without the wired feeling and the error potential. (They did a study once on typists that showed they could type faster with caffeine but made more mistakes.)

:hearteyes:
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Yeah, I'm into health. I'm a bit wary of melons, though, bc I've heard flouride gets concentrated upwards of 120-150x in it--meaning that you would have to know the farmer you're buying it from, what's in their water.

Fluoride is said to accumulate in the brain--supposedly calcifies the pineal gland.
Tangentially, turmeric will chelate it from your brain--but also Turmeric is high in oxalate, so you may want to consider a raw one, like the one sold at Global Healing, or else juice it. I think it goes good with mango. Foods of similar colors go together flavor wise as well.

Also, watermelon is unnatural--man-formed, like banana--and is sweeter than what it ought to be.

Also, I have kidney failure (not diabetes related--an injury), so I can't (appreciably) convert citrulline to arginine to increase nitric oxide and increase vasodilation.
 
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BarneyFife

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1a. If under in "under Law" means "condemned by", then that would render the phrase "condemned by Law"... but that would also force you to read "under Grace" as "condemned by Grace"--and, importantly, it wouldn't go very far in explaining why that arrangement would result in us not being "mastered by sin" (as that is what the verse is teaching).

This seems an awful lot like a slightly protracted re-assertion of your original claim, which I assume means that you're not entertaining any alternative possibility which is okay if that's your final position.

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GracePeace

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This seems an awful lot like a slightly protracted re-assertion of your original claim, which I assume means that you're not entertaining any alternative possibility which is okay if that's your final position.

:hearteyes:
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Actually, you offered an alternative view, and I addressed that.
 
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GracePeace

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Sorry, I was looking for something that addressed why the "condemned by grace" thing would be necessary and I just didn't see it. It's probably just over my head.

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Well, what's the alternative reading?

You do realize the definition of the word "under" isn't unknown, right? There is a word for "condemned" in Greek, and that's not the word used there--the Greek word used there means "under the jurisdiction of".

What you're doing is kind of like pretending you're playing hide and seek, but you're not actually hiding--"under" isn't an unknown, and isn't open to "helpful" speculative definitions that might help us "crack the case". Its definition is known.
 

GracePeace

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Sorry, I was looking for something that addressed why the "condemned by grace" thing would be necessary and I just didn't see it. It's probably just over my head.

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Well, what's the alternative reading?
I meant: the only alternative would be to arbitrarily change the definition of "under" (from "condemned" to "___? ___") mid sentence.

Are you actually saying you don't see the problem with that?

The word has to mean the same thing both times it's used, as is the grammatical norm with every other word.
Without demanding adherence to that, every single word, every phrase, every sentence, becomes unknowable, and open to speculative definitions, so the Bible could be made to say literally anything.

You see the problem I'm sure.
 
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BarneyFife

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Well, what's the alternative reading?

You do realize the definition of the word "under" isn't unknown, right? There is a word for "condemned" in Greek, and that's not the word used there--the Greek word used there means "under the jurisdiction of".

What you're doing is kind of like pretending you're playing hide and seek, but you're not actually hiding--"under" isn't an unknown, and isn't open to "helpful" speculative definitions that might help us "crack the case". Its definition is known.

I just don't think it's a simple thing. The Jews that were uncircumcised in heart were condemned by the law and put themselves under the jurisdiction of it at the same time.

Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

When Paul, especially, is speaking I don't think it's always easy to pin him down on whether he's talking about one kind of law, several kinds, or all law. Sometimes he makes it obvious; other times not so obvious. I imagine it was no enviable task to convince 1st century Jews and Gentiles that Law is necessary, but not able to save.

This view frustrates a lot of folks, I realize. And I don't wish to impose it on anyone. I just like to provoke thoughtful prayer and study.

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GracePeace

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I just don't think it's a simple thing. The Jews that were uncircumcised in heart were condemned by the law and put themselves under the jurisdiction of it at the same time.

Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

When Paul, especially, is speaking I don't think it's always easy to pin him down on whether he's talking about one kind of law, several kinds, or all law. Sometimes he makes it obvious; other times not so obvious. I imagine it was no enviable task to convince 1st century Jews and Gentiles that Law is necessary, but not able to save.

This view frustrates a lot of folks, I realize. And I don't wish to impose it on anyone. I just like to provoke thoughtful prayer and study.

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You're assuming and asserting Paul means "the Law of Moses", then questioning whether he means "the Law of Moses" lol

Idk what to tell you
 

BarneyFife

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I meant: the only alternative would be to arbitrarily change the definition of "under" (from "condemned" to "___? ___") mid sentence.

Are you actually saying you don't see the problem with that?

The word has to mean the same thing both times it's used, as is the grammatical norm with every other word.
Without demanding adherence to that, every single word, every phrase, every sentence, becomes unknowable, and open to speculative definitions, so the Bible could be made to say literally anything.

You see the problem I'm sure.

Unless the word "under" is being over-emphasized, as I thought I had suggested—not sure. I'd have to take some time to look into the ramifications of what you're saying here, though, which I'm willing to do as soon as I can find the time.

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BarneyFife

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You're assuming and asserting Paul means "the Law of Moses", then questioning whether he means "the Law of Moses" lol

Idk what to tell you

I think I'm just acknowledging that Paul writes many things that are hard to understand.

What do you think of the concept of paradox?

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GracePeace

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I just don't think it's a simple thing. The Jews that were uncircumcised in heart were condemned by the law and put themselves under the jurisdiction of it at the same time.
This is only a "complication" that exists for your view, bc you're importing a word ("condemned") that isn't there--it is not a problem in my view.

Paul is teaching the Jewish believers how to serve God by God's new way, which is grace and faith--I addressed this in my previous post.
 

GracePeace

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I think I'm just acknowledging that Paul writes many things that are hard to understand.

What do you think of the concept of paradox?

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Yeah, Paul writes stuff hard to understand, but he doesn't write gibberish. It is intelligible and explicable.
 

GracePeace

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Unless the word "under" is being over-emphasized, as I thought I had suggested—not sure. I'd have to take some time to look into the ramifications of what you're saying here, though, which I'm willing to do as soon as I can find the time.

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If I'm "overemphasizing" the word "under", what is it supposed to look like to "properly emphasize" the word--and aren't you actually "underemphasizing" the word "under"?