What Old Covenant Laws are the New Covenant believer to obey?

[GracePeace]

I made no attempt to interpret Jesus...NONE. I quoted Him.

The Torah principle that He upholds is "respect God"--the Law said "Respect God--keep your vows", Christ says "Respect God--don't even make a vow. Humble yourself."

 

[GracePeace]

I added nothing to Jesus quote, and I took nothing away. Jesus doesn't lie, nor does He need your opinion. You're not omnipotent.

An honest person sees inconsistency, and makes inquiry as to how to reconcile and restore coherence--you, on the other hand, are just throwing verses away, and attacking people who raise those verses to point out your incoherence to help you restore coherence. You're not being helpful.

 

[GracePeace]

The Torah principle that He upholds is "respect God"--the Law said "Respect God--keep your vows", Christ says "Respect God--don't even make a vow. Humble yourself."

If not, then how do you reconcile the fact that Christ both upholds the Law and countermands the Law? Both of those are facts--He upholds the Law AND cancels some Laws.
That's literally why He had to clarify He WAS NOT coming to do away with Torah--because He DID remove some laws (He says vows are of the evil one, and Torah's "any-cause" divorce He calls "adultery").

 

[TheHC]

First of all, let’s keep in mind Jesus’ own words @ Matthew 5:17…

“Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill.”

Of the 5 choices you posted, the one where love is required.

Romans 13:9,10….
For the law code, “You must not commit adultery, you must not murder, you must not steal, you must not covet,” and whatever other commandment there is, is summed up in this saying: “You must love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does not work evil to one’s neighbor; therefore, love is the law’s fulfillment.

Self-sacrificing love is the Law of the Christ:
John 13:34…
“I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, that you also love one another.”

Our Savior gave His life for others.

Has Christendom? I’d say no; the majority of its leaders have involved themselves in the world’s wars. (Matthew 7:23). A sad fact.

That doesn’t make Christ’s teachings wrong….only those who’ve failed to teach it by example.

 

[BarneyFife]

Jesus did not actually teach anybody to follow the old covenant laws and regulations which is where some get confused thinking He did.

"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love."

"I and My Father are one.”

.

 

[Writer]

"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love."

"I and My Father are one.”

.

I never said, mentioned or insinuated that Jesus actually taught anybody to follow the Law. God created the law to establish impunity for breaking the law. The law brought death so man could realize that apart from following God's word by faith, which brought new life (Abraham, the father of faith in the O.T), man would fail miserably at attempting to fulfill the law to gain what only faith could. In other words - futility. Man could never, ever be a perfect and acceptable sacrifice of himself before God because man was already blemished by birth being born in the Adamic Nature.

The Messiah, from the book of Isaiah, prophesied the way in which this occurrence would show. Jesus was anointed as Christ when He received the baptism of the Holy Spirit at the river Jordan and was taken up to the mount of temptation and there was tested.

 

[BarneyFife]

I never said, mentioned or insinuated that Jesus actually taught anybody to follow the Law. God created the law to establish impunity for breaking the law. The law brought death so man could realize that apart from following God's word by faith, which brought new life (Abraham, the father of faith in the O.T), man would fail miserably at attempting to fulfill the law to gain what only faith could. In other words - futility. Man could never, ever be a perfect and acceptable sacrifice of himself before God because man was already blemished by birth being born in the Adamic Nature.

The Messiah, from the book of Isaiah, prophesied the way in which this occurrence would show. Jesus was anointed as Christ when He received the baptism of the Holy Spirit at the river Jordan and was taken up to the mount of temptation and there was tested.

Okay...


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[Writer]

The Torah principle that He upholds is "respect God"--the Law said "Respect God--keep your vows", Christ says "Respect God--don't even make a vow. Humble yourself."

Respect is not just a word, respect is an "ACT". If one cannot explain how to respect God than one should not demand it.

 

[GracePeace]

Respect is not just a word, respect is an "ACT". If one cannot explain how to respect God than one should not demand it.

In what way did I fail to explain how Christ defined the "ACT" of respect there?

Just like you cherry pick the Bible words that suit you, and end up giving false impressions of the Bible, you cherry picked my words and gave the false impression I somehow came up short.

I specified the way in which Christ taught God was/is to be respected with regard to the issue. Any reader can see that. I didn't hide anything.

YOU should, now, tell ME what I said about how Christ wanted us to respect God regarding the issue.

 

[Writer]

In what way did I fail to explain how Christ defined the "ACT" of respect there?

Just like you cherry pick the Bible words that suit you, and end up giving false impressions of the Bible, you cherry picked my words and gave the false impression I somehow came up short.

I specificied the way in which Christ taught God was/is to be respected with regard to the issue. Any reader can see that. I didn't hide anything.

YOU should, now, tell ME what I said about how Christ wanted us to respect God regarding the issue.

Firstly; You're good at criticizing, you're not good at standing on your own truth or characterizing it. You're like the person who walks around trouble shooting everything but never offers solutions or become part of any kind of solution.

Ok, I will tell you, not about your failure because that wouldn't be fair. I don't consider you a failure. The most important thing God wants us to respect about Him is His Word. The thing that separated the prophets in the old testament from the rest of the people was the respect the prophets had in God's word, where the people respected God's law and tried to keep it...in vain. Abraham or Abram at the time, had no law, there was no priesthood, no alter, no sacrifices, no circumcision, no bible - O.T. or otherwise, yet God called upon Abram, and Abram answered "here I am Lord", acknowledging Gods Lordship over himself, an act of respect and humility. Later, while still Abram, God considered Abram His friend. Abram walked toward the promised land without a roadmap, a blue print, no signs or wonders, no spiritual guides. He simply trusted in God's word and chose to walk in a manner pleasing to God in real time, rather than walk somewhere as though he was hired and "working" for poor God who needed his help. So many today do exactly that and then give themselves a big hug for effort...ahhhh!

When God said let there be light, He wasn't calling light into existence, God was commanding His word to create light. In the Gospel of John, we see clearly that nothing that was created was created apart from the word, which was from the beginning. Apart from His word, nothing could have existed, not even light. Before there was a man, God established His word as the Lord of All. "and the word became flesh and dwelt among us as the only begotten of the Father".

Believing in God's word is not enough. We must receive His word and act upon it/Him!

 

[GracePeace]

Firstly; You're good at criticizing, you're not good at standing on your own truth or characterizing it. You're like the person who walks around trouble shooting everything but never offers solutions or become part of any kind of solution.

Ok, I will tell you, not about your failure because that wouldn't be fair. I don't consider you a failure. The most important thing God wants us to respect about Him is His Word. The thing that separated the prophets in the old testament from the rest of the people was the respect the prophets had in God's word, where the people respected God's law and tried to keep it...in vain. Abraham or Abram at the time, had no law, there was no priesthood, no alter, no sacrifices, no circumcision, no bible - O.T. or otherwise, yet God called upon Abram, and Abram answered "here I am Lord", acknowledging Gods Lordship over himself, an act of respect and humility. Later, while still Abram, God considered Abram His friend. Abram walked toward the promised land without a roadmap, a blue print, no signs or wonders, no spiritual guides. He simply trusted in God's word and chose to walk in a manner pleasing to God in real time, rather than walk somewhere as though he was hired and "working" for poor God who needed his help. So many today do exactly that and then give themselves a big hug for effort...ahhhh!

When God said let there be light, He wasn't calling light into existence, God was commanding His word to create light. In the Gospel of John, we see clearly that nothing that was created was created apart from the word, which was from the beginning. Apart from His word, nothing could have existed, not even light. Before there was a man, God established His word as the Lord of All. "and the word became flesh and dwelt among us as the only begotten of the Father".

Believing in God's word is not enough. We must receive His word and act upon it/Him!

This is all untrue and irrelevant.

To reiterate my point your critique rests upon intentionally ignoring: the Law instructed, "Respect God by keeping vows you make in His Name", but Christ says, "Respect God by making no vows."

So, I fully furnished you with the "ACT" whereby Christ said God was to be "respected"--you ignored that, and emptily critiqued what was said, simply because you prefer to go on in your own ideas.

You also have to ignore the fact that Christ countermands Torah to continue to hold to your preferred position.

This is why Christ had to clarify He wasn't doing away with the Law--because He does nullify some Laws, yet He upholds the precepts that are behind the Laws by that very same nullifying.

This is one way I resolve the two ideas--Christ didn't come to do away with the Law, and yet Christ cancels some Torah Laws--you, on the other hand, either don't recognize or don't acknowledge there is a problem in need of solving at all. My brain doesn't "bend" that way--I have to be honest with myself.

 

[Writer]

This is all untrue and irrelevant.

To reiterate my point your critique rests upon intentionally ignoring: the Law instructed, "Respect God by keeping vows you make in His Name", but Christ says, "Respect God by making no vows."

So, I fully furnished you with the "ACT" whereby Christ said God was to be "respected"--you ignored that, and emptily critiqued what was said, simply because you prefer to go on in your own ideas.

You also have to ignore the fact that Christ countermands Torah to continue to hold to your preferred position.

This is why Christ had to clarify He wasn't doing away with the Law--because He does nullify some Laws, yet He upholds the precepts that are behind the Laws by that very same nullifying.

This is one way I resolve the two ideas--Christ didn't come to do away with the Law, and yet Christ cancels some Torah Laws--you, on the other hand, either don't recognize or don't acknowledge there is a problem in need of solving at all. My brain doesn't "bend" that way--I have to be honest with myself.

What I said was Action is not derived by words but by deed. You want to respect God? Respect His word and follow Him to the cross. Get YOURSELF out of the way. All you look for is trouble. There is no hope in that, and since you are hopeless, don't talk about respect. God doesn't leave us hopeless. You are the bearer of carnal deeds mixed with bitterness. You are one ugly dude spiritually. Get yourself washed in the blood and get over yourself.

 

[GracePeace]

What I said was Action is not derived by words but by deed. You want to respect God? Respect His word and follow Him to the cross. Get YOURSELF out of the way. All you look for is trouble. There is no hope in that, and since you are hopeless, don't talk about respect. God doesn't leave us hopeless. You are the bearer of carnal deeds mixed with bitterness. You are one ugly dude spiritually. Get yourself washed in the blood and get over yourself.

You're changing the subject.

This discussion is not about me or you.

Again, Christ says He upholds the Law, and yet Christ nullifies Laws, so the solution to this superficial contradiction is He upholds the principles behind the Laws He nullifies. In the case of vows, the Law says "Respect God, keep your vows you make in His Name," but Christ says, "Respect God, don't make any vows."

 

[GracePeace]

For the sake of context, let's follow the conversation...

You misinterpret Jesus, bc He immediately called making and keeping vows, a Torah Law, "of the evil one", saying, instead, "let your 'yes' be yes and your 'no' be no--anything beyond this [eg, making vows] is of the evil one."

James echoes Jesus's teaching--"make no vow at all".

Your "response" to this doctrine that doesn't "jive" with your obvious error is that Christ didn't say not to make vows, but just said not to break them...

Literally no one can get through to these "Torah Observant" people--they don't even care what Jesus says. They'll twist His words to whatever shape they like, like the gays do with the Bible. They have no shame.

Disagreeing with me, you said,

I made no attempt to interpret Jesus...NONE. I quoted Him. As far as your skribbish, you should try learning to say more by saying less.

Disagreeing that you did not attempt to interpret Jesus, I said,

Yeah, by ignoring the immediately following teaching that contradicts your "takeaway" from those words, you most certainly are misrepresenting those words.

and

The Torah principle that He upholds is "respect God"--the Law said "Respect God--keep your vows", Christ says "Respect God--don't even make a vow. Humble yourself."

You find fault with this, trying to re-establish the notion that Christ "fulfills every single Law verbatim", by emptily claiming I did not define "how to respect God", because "respect is an act"

Respect is not just a word, respect is an "ACT". If one cannot explain how to respect God than one should not demand it.

Obviously, I had already provided the specific way in which He wanted us to "act" with respect, which, again debunks your overly simplistic view, based on a single statement of Christ, and in intentional rejection of the whole of His Words.

What is your "solution" to this problem?

"You're a sinner! Who are you to tell me to respect God?"

1. Whether I am a sinner or not is irrelevant.
2. I never told anyone "Respect God"; the thread has a topic, and I discussed the topic.

You have a dedication to your own view, and your view is threatened by what I am saying Scripture says, and you're unwilling to admit that, so you lash out and attack me.

 

[GracePeace]

What I said was Action is not derived by words but by deed. You want to respect God? Respect His word and follow Him to the cross. Get YOURSELF out of the way. All you look for is trouble. There is no hope in that, and since you are hopeless, don't talk about respect. God doesn't leave us hopeless. You are the bearer of carnal deeds mixed with bitterness. You are one ugly dude spiritually. Get yourself washed in the blood and get over yourself.

I suggest you start a new thread, or maybe a business, where people come and seek your "life coaching", if you're so excited about disseminating your opinions about other people. On this thread, however, none of that is relevant, and it, in fact, works to suppress the conversation, and obfuscate the truth... but you know that, I think, and, I think, that is exactly why you tried to derail the conversation like that. You want to escape the consequences of Scripture, you want to preserve your view "by hook or by crook".

I trust the readers will see through what you are trying to do.

 

[Writer]

I suggest you start a new thread, or maybe a business, where people come and seek your "life coaching", if you're so excited about disseminating your opinions about other people. On this thread, however, none of that is relevant, and it, in fact, works to suppress the conversation, and obfuscate the truth... but you know that, I think, and, I think, that is exactly why you tried to derail the conversation like that. You want to escape the consequences of Scripture, you want to preserve your view "by hook or by crook".

I trust the readers will see through what you are trying to do.

If you are a true believer you wouldn't keep coming at me for sharing my revelations about biblical truth. What you will do is comment negatively about what I just said about biblical truth and how it doesn't relate to anything, and you'll put a twist on your theatrics about how I didn't answer your questions. That is all you know to do. You do not share any of your God given revelations about anything. You just jump into other peoples conversations and squat your dung on it. What's more, you build yourself up as a victim and accuse me of setting you up.

But look, I came here to share my faith in Jesus for people even as perfect as you. Your rantings, your sarcasms, your criticisms against my testimonies and revelations speak for themselves. I don't post with an intent to stir up a hornets nest over quoting Jesus own words. I don't need to defend that. No one does. But having you continually chase me around with absolutely nothing but critique with absolutely no originality of your own regarding Jesus or your testimony or your experience leaves me wondering what your vision for YOU is in this place.

 

[GracePeace]

If you are a true believer you wouldn't keep coming at me for sharing my revelations about biblical truth. What you will do is comment negatively about what I just said about biblical truth and how it doesn't relate to anything, and you'll put a twist on your theatrics about how I didn't answer your questions. That is all you know to do. You do not share any of your God given revelations about anything. You just jump into other peoples conversations and squat your dung on it. What's more, you build yourself up as a victim and accuse me of setting you up.

But look, I came here to share my faith in Jesus for people even as perfect as you. Your rantings, your sarcasms, your criticisms against my testimonies and revelations speak for themselves. I don't post with an intent to stir up a hornets nest over quoting Jesus own words. I don't need to defend that. No one does. But having you continually chase me around with absolutely nothing but critique with absolutely no originality of your own regarding Jesus or your testimony or your experience leaves me wondering what your vision for YOU is in this place.

What I see when I read your off topic nonsense is a dishonest ignorant self-absorbed person.

I do not see "revelation", I see worthless rambling.

I do not care what you have to say if it is not on topic, and I certainly don't care what you have to say when you reject Scripture in order to try to preserve your misconceptions instead of humbling yourself and rejoicing in the truth even when it debunks your ignorance.

 

[Writer]

What I see when I read your off topic nonsense is a dishonest ignorant self-absorbed person.

I do not see "revelation", I see worthless rambling.

I do not care what you have to say if it is not on topic, and I certainly don't care what you have to say when you reject Scripture in order to try to preserve your misconceptions instead of humbling yourself and rejoicing in the truth even when it debunks your ignorance.

I got news for you. Your not the topic police and you're not my rule maker. Again, you state what you don't care about and generalize rubbish and then wear it like a badge of honor. You use words like misconceptions but never point to them, because there aren't any. You accuse me of not rejoicing in the truth, but you don't state what Truth you rejoice in. You call me ignorant, but don't point to it. Again, you just love to throw words, critique and a twist here and rubbish there and voila GracePeace.

 

[GracePeace]

But having you continually chase me around

Have you lost your mind?

You realize you're on a discussion forum, right? You realize you're going to be discussing things... with other people... here, right?

If you're saying that me literally being on a discussion forum, and me discussing things with other people is me "continually chasing" all these people (including you) around, you either have a screw loose or you're intentionally mischaracterizing me.

You are free to place me on ignore if you find me that objectionable (as I have done with many). I do not need to talk with you. I do not care what is rattling around in your Scripture-denying brain.

 

[GracePeace]

I got news for you. Your not the topic police and you're not my rule maker. Again, you state what you don't care about and generalize rubbish and then wear it like a badge of honor. You use words like misconceptions but never point to them, because there aren't any. You accuse me of not rejoicing in the truth, but you don't state what Truth you rejoice in. You call me ignorant, but don't point to it. Again, you just love to throw words, critique and a twist here and rubbish there and voila GracePeace.

Again, not on topic, so I don't even waste time reading.