7 Common Errors of Interpretation for Chapters 4-6 of Revelation

[6 Stories]

Did anyone watch the YouTube video on this topic?

 

[covenantee]

But Jesus is not reigning on earth.

What verse in Daniel are you referencing?

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus does not come immediately as the great tribulation ends.

Yes he does.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


The events of verse 30 happen at the same timeframe as in verse 29. Darkness, falling stars heaven shaken and Christ seen coming all happen immediately.

 

[Davy]

The conqueror of the first seal is a lesser type of the noisome beast of Ezekiel 14:21, and the noisome beast is found in Dan 7.

Rev 6:2 "And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
Ez 14:21 "For thus saith the Lord God; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?"
Dan 7:3-7
3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

The conquerors/noisome beasts/beasts of history with unlimited authority to put to death anyone anywhere (100%) are known as Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, and Rome. These conquerors put people to death by means of war, famine, and pestilence as found in Ezekiel and seals 1-4. Although these had the authority, they didn't try to kill everyone.

When the conqueror Antichrist comes to power for 42 months in a new Roman Empire, he will try to kill everyone on earth. (100%)

From the time of the last Roman Empire until Antichrist, conquerors have not been able to put to death more than 25%. Use Mongol, Ottoman, Russian, and British Empires for examples.

This power to put to death is not generational, it's about empires.

The rapture does not leave behind a dead corruptible physical body. Before the rapture, the bones of the dead will come out of their graves and the bodies of the living will be changed in the twinkling of an eye from a dead corruptible physical body to an immortal body. I can say with certainty that we are living during the times of the 4th and 5th seal, and that the graveyards are full of corpses; even though the spirits of the dead are clothed with a different body in heaven than what they had on earth.

The martyrs are redeemed as you have stated, but they also gave their lives, preventing the final world empire from emerging.

The great tribulation begins with an event called the abomination of desolation and ends with the death, resurrection, and ascension of the 2 witnesses. Time, times and a half time, 42 months, 1,260 days, and 3.5 years are different expressions telling the duration of the great tribulation.

I agree that the GT is Jacobs trouble. Jacob (Israel) did not exist from 70 to 1948, so it couldn't get into trouble during those years.

The 144k are sealed before the 4 winds blow in the new Roman Empire. Compare Rev 7:1-3 with Dan 7:1-3.
The Trumpets started blowing with WWII, so you are right that the 144k are sealed during the Trumpets.
The Trumpets are blowing and the church is still here.
Jesus is going to bring the spirits of the dead with him when he comes to rule during the Millennium. These spirits will inhabit bodies that come up from the ground at that time. The resurrected immortal bodies will rise to join their spirits in the clouds with Jesus. Those with Jesus will rule on earth with Jesus during the Millennium.

That is some WILD stuff that is NOT written.

The coming Antichrist is not going to seek to kill everyone.

The coming Antichrist is going to create a time of world "Peace and safety". That is what Apostle Paul showed the deceived will be saying in that time (1 Thess.5; Daniel 8).

The Antichrist will seek to go after ONLY those NOT deceived. That means Christ's elect who cannot be deceived, because they are "sealed" by GOD in Spirit.

 

[Davy]

What is your evidence?

The 'crowns' promised by Jesus represent REWARDS given out at His future RETURN (1 Corinthians 9:25; 2 Timothy 4:8; James 1:12; 1 Peter 5:4; Rev.2:10).

The "fourth" part "to kill" is different than having power over all peoples and nations for 42 months.
Matthew 24:22 describes what would have happened if AC were allowed to continue past the 42 months. "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

2 different subjects there.

Look at the 4 stages of the locust God gives in the Book of Joel. That is what Satan gaining power over a 4th part is really about. Those 4 tools he does it with written in Rev.6:8.

The subject of Matt.24:22 is about the time of "great tribulation", which is on a later 'seal' of Rev.6. The idea of no flesh saved isn't really about a holocaust during the "great tribulation". The tribulation will be a time of world peace, so why didn't you understand that per Daniel 8 with the "king of fierce countenance" coming to destroy many using peace, and craft prospering by his hand? and according to Apostle Paul in 1 Thess.5 when the deceived will be saying, "Peace and safety" prior to the time of "sudden destruction" (on the day of the Lord, when Jesus returns)?

Matt 10:17-22 A message given to the 12 on their first mission without Jesus.
16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Compare with Matt 24:9-13 which are signs that occur after the birthpangs.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

These signs have a long history.

See where Apostle Peter on Pentecost quoted from the end of Joel 2 as an ensample for the END regarding the cloven tongue. By Peter quoting Joel 2, he was showing how the cloven tongue is to manifest especially just prior to the coming of the "day of the Lord", which is the day of Christ's future return. So the main event prophesied for the manifesting of the cloven tongue is for the end of this world, which is why Jesus covered that in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. The "two candlesticks" of Rev.11, during the coming "great tribulation" time (6th trumpet - 2nd woe), are scheduled to prophesy against the beast along with God's "two witnesses". According to Lord Jesus, who do the "candlesticks" represent per the end of Revelation 1?

This pause is in heaven because something new is happening in heaven.

The pause (selah) with the 7th Seal represents an ending of the Seals, and preparation for the subject of the 7 trumpets (Rev.8:1-2). Jesus returns on 777 (actually 2nd part of the 6th Seal, but 7th Seal is included because of the pause; 7th Trumpet; 7th Vial).

Satan comes on 666. First part of the 6th Seal (Rev.6:12-13), 6th Trumpet-2nd Woe (Rev.9:11 thru Rev.11:13), 6th Vial (Rev.16:12-14). The beast system is prepared by the locusts of Joel before Satan comes.

1st song reflected that people were saved through faith in a creator God. Rev 4:11 "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

2nd song reflected that people were saved by faith in Jesus, the slain Lamb. Rev 5:9 "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;"

The singing of the new song is for AFTER Christ's future return, not before. It's about the new song in Rev.14, and the 'song of Moses' of Rev.15.

3rd song reflects the sign of the son of man in Matt 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
Jesus died, rose from the dead, ascended into heaven while people watched. Then he is seen in heaven in Rev 5 as firstfruits of the resurrection.
The 2 witnesses of Rev 11 die, rise from the dead, ascend into heaven while people watch. Then they are seen in heaven in Rev 14:1-5 as the 144,000 firstfruits of the resurrection. The 2 witnesses are 2 churches/candlesticks containing 144,000 members.

The "firstfruits" of resurrection are represented by those who came out of their graves after Jesus' resurrection, and of those "spirits in prison" which Jesus preached The Gospel to, and led out of Satan's prison house in the heavenly. (See 1 Cor.15:20).

The idea of "firstfruits of the Spirit" is not the same thing.

The 144,000 represent only 'sealed' Israelites in Christ Jesus. The "great multitude" in that Rev.7 chapter represent those 'sealed' of the Gentiles. Both together represent Christ's Church today, and both together will go through the coming "great tribulation".

Only TWO Churches represent the "two candlesticks" of Rev.11, and it's those who will manifest the cloven tongue during the "great tribulation", giving a Testimony for Jesus against the beast.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The 6 stories have 1 conclusion, that is, they all come to the same end. Most stories do have different starting points and different facts.

Wekk thge stories lead to one conclusion, but have differing conclusions leading to that one conclusion.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I was asking for evidence that people instantly vanish. Both Jesus and the 2 witnesses are visible when they are caught up until they disappear in the clouds.

Well maybe believers will be seen being caught up to heaven in the rapture, or maybe they won't. the language is too inconclusive to be 100% sure. I am comfortable with just disappearing as we are transformed from mortal to immortal in a moment.

What do you say about Daniel 2 where hereafter referred both to the past, King Neb was already in charge for 2 years, and the present, King Neb is that head of gold.

Well Neb was the head of Gold before the vision so He was in the past, present and future until He lost His reign. NO biggie.

There you go.

Yesd other than personal opinion, we have no evidence that angels are called elders and sit on thrones.

 

[Timtofly]

The conqueror of the first seal is a lesser type of the noisome beast of Ezekiel 14:21, and the noisome beast is found in Dan 7.

Rev 6:2 "And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
Ez 14:21 "For thus saith the Lord God; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?"
Dan 7:3-7
3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

The conquerors/noisome beasts/beasts of history with unlimited authority to put to death anyone anywhere (100%) are known as Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, and Rome. These conquerors put people to death by means of war, famine, and pestilence as found in Ezekiel and seals 1-4. Although these had the authority, they didn't try to kill everyone.

When the conqueror Antichrist comes to power for 42 months in a new Roman Empire, he will try to kill everyone on earth. (100%)

From the time of the last Roman Empire until Antichrist, conquerors have not been able to put to death more than 25%. Use Mongol, Ottoman, Russian, and British Empires for examples.

This power to put to death is not generational, it's about empires.

The rapture does not leave behind a dead corruptible physical body. Before the rapture, the bones of the dead will come out of their graves and the bodies of the living will be changed in the twinkling of an eye from a dead corruptible physical body to an immortal body. I can say with certainty that we are living during the times of the 4th and 5th seal, and that the graveyards are full of corpses; even though the spirits of the dead are clothed with a different body in heaven than what they had on earth.

The martyrs are redeemed as you have stated, but they also gave their lives, preventing the final world empire from emerging.

The great tribulation begins with an event called the abomination of desolation and ends with the death, resurrection, and ascension of the 2 witnesses. Time, times and a half time, 42 months, 1,260 days, and 3.5 years are different expressions telling the duration of the great tribulation.

I agree that the GT is Jacobs trouble. Jacob (Israel) did not exist from 70 to 1948, so it couldn't get into trouble during those years.

The 144k are sealed before the 4 winds blow in the new Roman Empire. Compare Rev 7:1-3 with Dan 7:1-3.
The Trumpets started blowing with WWII, so you are right that the 144k are sealed during the Trumpets.
The Trumpets are blowing and the church is still here.
Jesus is going to bring the spirits of the dead with him when he comes to rule during the Millennium. These spirits will inhabit bodies that come up from the ground at that time. The resurrected immortal bodies will rise to join their spirits in the clouds with Jesus. Those with Jesus will rule on earth with Jesus during the Millennium.

You are missing the whole point I made.

No generation has only had a 24% death rate. You cannot stretch Revelation over the last 2,000 years like you describe. Every generation has had a 100% death rate. They are all gone. Revelation is not multiple accounts of the same time frame like the Gospels. Revelation is John's version of the Olivet Discourse, because he did not write the Discourse in his Gospel. He lived out the experience in real time.

The point is that the 6 Seals are the end right before the Second Coming. But they don't repeat again in the Trumpets. The Second Coming does not start with the AoD.

The generations at the Second Coming are the ones who suddenly experience an unprecedented death rate besides the normal 100% death rate. No one takes Adam's dead body, nor a set of bones that are changed and puts them on. Paul explains that the old is taken off, and something new is put on. Jesus explains the old returns to dust.

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked."

Souls gathered in death and the grave are naked, and the body of death returns to dust. The redeemed were moved from the grave at the Cross, and no longer naked souls but clothed with God's permanent incorruptible physical body. So is the current state of all in Christ currently in Paradise, and Jesus brings them clothed with that body to meet, those alive in Adam's flesh on the earth, in the air. That is when those on earth change out of that body of death into God's body of life. That happens at the 5th Seal, as Jesus continues to the Mount of Olives and Jerusalem at the 6th Seal. That is the Second Coming.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

We are clothed in heaven with new bodies.
We also rejoin our bodies that will come up from the earth at the time Jesus returns.
Both events are called resurrection.

Our Spirit Man looks just like our Flesh body. Our Glorious body will look like that image also, but it will not be a flesh body that has ever seen sin.

I believe 1 Thes 4 is the resurrection and rapture that occurs when Jesus returns with the trump (voice) of God.
I believe 1 Cor 15 is the resurrection that occurs at the end of the Millennium, at the last trump (last voice of God.) No rapture at this time.

1 Cor. 15 is the Rapture, the dead in Christ are raised and we are CHANGED FIRST so we can go to heaven, our sin flesh can not enter heaven. We return with Jesus 7 years later at the 2nd coming.

These are surrounded by the world armies. Rev 20:8-9
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

That happens after the 1000 year reign.

1 Cor 15:22-26
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Jesus reigns for 1000 years. Verse 25 says that Jesus has power over death, implying those who belong to him are no longer dead at the end of the 1000 years. However, the enemy Satan, that Jesus also has power over, gathers the world against the saints after the 1000 years have ended. It is only after this gathering has died that death is destroyed. When death is destroyed, the dead will appear before the great white throne. Those that were made alive and belong to Jesus at the end of the 1000 years are immortal and do not appear before the great white throne.

That is why 1 Cor. 15 is the Pre 70th week rapture, the 1000 yeas is future. At th9s point in time the 70th week is still to come.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 20:14 fulfills 1 Cor 15:26.

There are a multitude of verses that show dead bodies do come back to life. (Salvaged)

Paul is trying to teach the Corinthians faith in belief, and that Christ died and was seen by 500, they were fearing their dead loved ones would not gain everlasting life. So, Paul tells them Christ arose that we may have life, then he tells them THE ORDER of things to come.......THEN in verses 42-52 he explains it all in vivid detail.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming(The pre 70th week rapture).

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet(1000 year reign). 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

So the pre 70th week Rapture.........the 2nd Coming............. and finally the 2nd Resurrection where the wicked are judged and death is defeated forever more. Verses 42-52 explain the Rapture.

Flesh and blood can not enter Heaven. We go to Heaven to get our Glorious Bodies.

There are a multitude of verses that show dead bodies do come back to life. (Salvaged)

1 Cor. 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

I think you are just mistaken on that thought process brother.

Dan 2:1 "And in the second year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar Nebuchadnezzar dreamed dreams, wherewith his spirit was troubled, and his sleep brake from him."

Dan 2:29 "As for thee, O king, thy thoughts came into thy mind upon thy bed, what should come to pass hereafter: and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass."

That is not the same thing, SMH. Context matters. Here we know this is about Babylon's king, and so this was about Four Beast Kingdom ON EARTH, before the Kingdom Age comes. So, its HEREAFTER King Nebuchadnezzar, on this earth. Meanwhile Rev. 4 is the HEREAFTER in the context of the 7 Churches or complete Church Age (the THINGS THAT ARE).

Daniel's use of the word hereafter therefore was used in the context of 4 world kingdoms. You know this.

This seemingly future tense is also found twice in Rev 4:1.
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

After the 7 Churches and the Rev. 4:1 pre 70th week rapture comes the HEREAFTER. The number 7 equals Divine Completion. John foresaw in a vision his own rapture from the dead in Christ who arise.

The dreams in both Daniel and Revelation show future events, but I believe Revelation 4:1 was a past state of heaven (the moment of Jesus ascension) just as Babylon was in a past state of existence (King Nebuchadnezzar's 2nd year).

No seals are opened, the seals are not REAL EVENTS, they merely seal up the Scroll, with 7 Wax Signet Seals, thus God wrath can not fall until the 7th seal is opened.


Nothing can be read until the Seals are all loosed, that is why the 7th Seal is opened over in Rev. 8, where the Trumpet Judgments fall. Notice no angels are involved here, the covering Beast in Heaven says COME AND SEE (so all are future events to come when they are opened in Rev 6 they happen in Rev 8, 9 and 16) where as the Seven (7)Trumps have to be blown or sounded by an Angel, likewise the Seven (7) Vials have to be poured out by angels, no angels are ever seen whilst the Seven Seals are loosed. Jesus looses them in a metaphoric manner, he is saying with each seal, the wrath is closer, the wrath to come is closer et al.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

CONTINUED.......

The tabernacle on earth was built to reveal heaven. The 24 elders on earth worked in the tabernacle representing the 24 elders who were already in heaven at the time of the tabernacle constructed during the Exodus. Wasn't that 4000 years ago. The church will dress in the same manner and will become part of these 24 orders in the service of God.

Heaven was not constructed to reveal the church.

Its the Pre 70th week Raptured Church SEEN in Heaven. Quit dodging facts sir. The 7 Church are the THINGS THAT ARE (Church Age) the things that will be HEREAFTER (one verse after the Church Age) from Rev. 4:1 on. Tryin g to play it off like this is not the Church in Heaven will not work. Two scriptures prove this overwhelmingly. In Rev. 4:2 and then in Rev.

Rev. 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. (So, immediately after John was told to come up here he's in the Spirit, or out of his body)

Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

So, John was told to come up here, he was in the Spirit, then saw the Pre 70th week Raptured Church who had all the things promised unto those who OVERCOME. Then in Rev. 5:9-10 we see those singing, in Heaven, say that Jesus has REDEEMEEMED them by his blood, that can only be the Pre Trib. Raptured Church. And they stated also that he made them Kings and Priest unto God. Well, 1 Chronicles 24 shows us the 24 orders of the Priesthood. You have to understand prophecy is much deeper than most think.

The Seals are opening a Scroll, THATS IT, everything else is IMAGINED. The Seals point top a future Anti-Christ only weeks or days away whilst Jesus is opening the seals post 70th week but pre Great Tribulation which happens in the exact middle of the 70th week.

Story 1 is from Rev 6:1 - 6:17. Story 2 is from Rev 7:1 - 8:5. The 6th seal begins immediately after the period of great tribulation.

The seals are a separate story from the trumpets, just as Matthew is a separate story from Mark.
The seals are also not single day events.

Story 1 is from Rev 6:1 - 6:17. Story 2 is from Rev 7:1 - 8:5. The 6th seal begins immediately after the period of great tribulation. The seal of the 144,000 begins a new story that starts before the 4 winds blow in a new world empire. The silence of the 7th seal is the time of the earthquake of Rev 6:12. The end of both stories contains the throne of God. Rev 6:16 specifically states the throne of God has come, while Rev 8:5 shows this same event symbolically.

The end of the time of the 6th trumpet Rev 11:13 shows the earthquake of Rev 6:12 which ends the GT. The silence of the 7th seal is the time the 2 witnesses spend ascending into heaven in Rev 11:12, ending the GT. This is followed by God's wrath in the 7th trumpet, including the symbolic version of the throne of God.

You are just down a rabbit hole brother. No Seals can be opened until the 70th week HEREAFTER the Church Age begins. Seals 1-5 DESCRIBE the Anti-Christs 42 month rule. The silence is exactly what I stated, the Angels and Heavenly hosts are not joyful that billions of humans must be judged and killed. God was sad (it repented him when he flooded the earth) when he flooded the earth, this is a somber silence. Nevertheless, Judgment has to be brought via a Righteous God.

The Seals DO FORETELL the 7 Trumps, that is true, but they are only opened after the Rapture and JUST BEFORE God's Wrath falls at the 1260 point.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Joel 2:31 and the 6th seal do match. I don't know if it's an asteroid that causes the earthquake, but there is an earthquake which ends the GT.

Of course they match, 1/3 of the world is ablaze/on fire. The Earthquake in Rev. 8 is THE IMPACT, the Earthquake at the 7th Vial is the 2nd Coming when Jesus puts his foot down. Come on, you know this.

At the time of this earthquake, the 2 witnesses rise from the dead and ascend into heaven.

The Earthquake in Rev. 11 happens during the 2nd Woe which can be seen in Rev. 9, Revelation 11 is not a real tine event per se, the 2nd (5th Trump) can be seen in real time in Rev. 8, just like the 3rd Woe (7th Trump) can be seen in Rev. 16, via the 7 Vials, which are the 3rdb Woe which emits from the 7th Trump. The Earthquake that is seen in Rev. 11 can not be the Rev. 8 earthquake nor the Rev. 16 earthquake.

Heaven gets dark and then the 3rd heaven is revealed.

The 3rd Heaven is God's throne. I do not think the passage says the 3rd Heaven is revealed, it says they are simply told to COME UP HERE. The Two-witnesses have glorious bodies, they can't be killed, God allows it on their 1260th day for a REASON, so we can understand they have to show up BEFORE the Beast because they DIE before the Beast dies, the Two-witnesses are the 1335, they show up 75 days before the 1260. 1335 - 1260 = 75. All of the numbers are how many days, from those events, it is until the 2nd coming ENDS ALL OF THESE WONDERS !! It is that simple.

The 144,000 are 2 candlesticks which are 2 churches as revealed in Rev 1:20. These are the 2 witnesses of Rev 11 which ascended into heaven, who are shown as the 144,000 in heaven. The 144,000 are the firstfruits of those who will rise from the dead and ascend into heaven. There is a new song in heaven because this is something new in heaven.

That is all wrong. The Two-witnesses are Elijah and I think Moses, the 144,000 is a CODE for the number of Jews who repent (Jews = AL 12 Tribes) and we know via Zech. 13:8-9 that 1/3 repent so 5 Million Jews will repent and flee Judea JUST BEFORE the 1260 Wrath of God falls. Thus the Two-witnesses shows up with ONE JOB, to get Israel to repent first and foremost. Then after that they pray down the plagues. The number 12 = Fulness and 10 = Completeness so Fulness x Completeness means ALL Israel or 5 million Jews who repent. 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 144,000 or ALL Israel who repent. The 144,000 are the First-fruits of the Jews (Wheat) the Church is the first-fruits of the Barley which does not need to be Crushed to be sifted. Wheat HAS TO be Crushed to be sifted. Its a sign, the Church is Raptured pre 70th week tribulation, because we do not need to be crushed to be sifted, we are already saved. Israel must be crushed in order to be sifted, that is why it is called "Jacob's Troubles".

Trumpet 1 was WWII. Trumpet 2 shows a mountain (Axis Powers) defeated and assimilated back into the sea of nations.
Trumpet 3 was the Chernobyl explosion. Chernobyl is Wormwood. Trumpet 4 was the radiation cloud.

You have followed someone off a cliff brother. Wormwood is the Asteroid's FALLOUT !! This is bad eschatology my friend.

When the army of the 6th trumpet get to Jerusalem and stops the twice daily lamb sacrifice, the GT begins. Different aspects of the GT are shown through Rev 11:14.
Continued

The 1290 AoD happens 30 days before God's Wrath STARTS at the 1260. I mean you are not even close brother, someone led you down a bad path at some point in time. Stay true to Jesus, but please do not try to teach prophecy brother. You haven't even got the basics down. You need to reevaluate.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

What is your evidence that the seals begin during the 70th week?

Firstly, read the Book of Revelation, understand the numbers. The number 7 Churches = Divine Completion.

Jesus told John write the things you have SEEN (Jesus in all his Glory) The THINGS WHICH ARE (The Church Age and the promises to those who OVERCOME, then in Rev. 4:1 we see the HEREAFTER (after the Church Ag, the 70th week events, CLEARLY). This is not really debatable tbh.

Compare these 2 groups of martyrs. There is nothing in the first group about when they arrived and they don't appear to be numerous. The second group does appear at the end of the GT, the end of the last half of the 70th week and they are a great multitude.

They are different, those killed at the 5th Seal CAN NOT BE RAPTURED, that is the my point. Thus those seen in Rev. 7:9-16 can only be the Pre Trib/Pre 70th week raptured Church, who indeed went through great troubles that saw millions of our brothers killed for their faith.

Seal 6 is a prophetic utterance in that it hasn't yet happened.

God/Jesus FORETELLS what is in their hearts. Rev. 8 Trump 1 BEGINS that 1260 days of Wrath however.

The bowls are defined as the wrath of God in Rev 15:1 "And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God."

No, that is not true, the Vials. In the 7 last plagues is God's Wrath FILLED UP. Meaning quenched. Well, of course God's wrath is finished off with the 7 Vials. Jesus shows up at the 7th Vial and starts the Kingdom Age of 1000 years on earth. You guys conflate mere words, do deeper studies.

In a recent post, I explained the symbolism of a mountain being a kingdom and the sea as the nations.

You are in error.

God's wrath is not part of the 42 months of GT. God's wrath sequentially follows the GT.

Of course it is, and part of that Wrath is him allowing the Anti-Christs 42 month rule.

Story 1, Rev 6:1-6:17 Everything through 6:11 occurs before the GT. Everything after the earthquake of 6:12 occurs after the GT.

NO........Seals 1-5 FORETELLS of the Anti-Christs 42 month rule. Seal #6 FORETELLS of God's Wrath, part pf that wrath is the A.C.'s rule. That is why the parallel for the exact same 42 months. The 7th Seal merely LOOSES it all or begins the Wrath.

Compare this to Matt 24. The signs in Matt 24:1-13 are the same as the first 5 seals, before the GT.

This is bogus bad Eschatology, Matt. 4-13 was all about the Disciples lives. Verses 7-8 was just Jesus SHOWING why vs, 6 was NOT THE END YET. Matt. 4-6 is about 70 AD. Verses 7-8 is a description why vs 6 can't be then 70th week end, THIS, THIS & THIS must happen before the 70th week comes. Then in vs. 9 we go right back to the Disciples, Jesus tell them they will all be killed, the false prophets here are not Christs but the Jupiter/Zeus types, they cried unto Rome complaining about losing their patrons to this new (Christian) religion, this they had Rome kill them all. This is why Jess says in vs. 23 ye must ENDURE until the end [ of their loves ] Jesus did not want them to become another Judas. Then in vs. 24 we see the Rapture after the Gospel is preached unto ALL THE WORLD, then and only then can THE END (70th week) come. The Disciples knew of China, India and the Scythians (modern day Russia) and thus they knew 100 percent that they would never see the 2nd Coming and thus that 70 AD (Rumors of wars) could not be Jesus come again. If they had rushed back to Jerusalem, with the fledgling church, that would have wiped out the Church via Rome. So, Jesus in Matt. 24-1-14 is doing ONE THING, teaching the Disciples what not to do and what to look for (being killed) it had nothing to do with END TIMES.

The signs in Matt 24:1-13 are the same as the first 5 seals, before the GT. Matt 24:14 jumps to the time of Gods wrath, after the GT. Matt 24:15-31 is a second Matt 24 story that begins at the GT in verses15-28, followed by God's wrath using the same signs as found in the 6th seal.

And I just proved this WRONG brother, you bought that which I long ago rejected. Matt. 24:15-31 is the 70th week.

Story 2, Rev 7:1-8:5 Rev 7:1-8, the 144,000 are sealed before the 4 winds blow in the final Roman Empire. See Dan 7:2-3. Rev 7:9-17, the people who die and go to heaven during the GT. Rev 8:1-5, the prayers of the saints go to God and God answers by pouring out his wrath on the earth. Rev 8:2 is part of the 3rd story.

The 144,000 is the Jews who repent (1/3, 5 Million ENCODED via 144,000) and flee Judea.

Story 3, Rev 8:6-11:19 Trumpets 1-5 occur before the GT. The GT begins when this army stops the twice daily sacrifice on the temple mount in Jerusalem. Rev 10 is similar to the time, times, and a half time of Dan 12, the GT. The 42 months and the 1260 days are the GT. The GT ends at Rev 11:14. The earthquake of Rev 11:13 is the same one found in Rev 6:12, ending the GT. This is followed by the 7th trumpet which again is described as God's wrath.

God's wrath always follows the GT which is the last half of the 70th week. The terms are not interchangeable, and they do not occur at the same time.

ALL 7 Trumps are God's Divine Complete Wrath. PERIOD.

The GT lasts for 1260 days. The 75 days between the end of the GT and day 1335 are the time of God's wrath.
AC's reign ends at day 1260, but he is not killed until after that, sometime during the next 75 days.

The 1335 = the Two=witnesses

The 1290 = the False Prophet

The 1260 = The Beast.

 

[ewq1938]

The 1335 = the Two=witnesses

The 1290 = the False Prophet

The 1260 = The Beast.

Nope.

1260 = the Two witnesses

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.




42 months = The 7 headed Beast and the False Prophet Beast

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

 

[6 Stories]

What verse in Daniel are you referencing?

Covenantee said, "Little horn (kingdom) and king: The Roman papacy, governed by pope Gelasius I when the first of the three kings in Daniel 7:8,20,24, Odoacer of the Heruli, was overthrown in 493.

The three kings overthrown ("subdued"): Odoacer of the Heruli in 493, Gelimer of the Vandals in 534, Teia of the Ostrogoths in 553.

These horns/beasts/kings/kingdoms were subsequently recognized as the early prophetic precedents and fulfillments leading to the eventual Protestant Reformation."

To which I replied, "Jesus is not yet reigning on earth" and then I made a reference to the Lord's prayer.

My point was that if the 10 kings were the kings you stated, Jesus would be reigning by now because his reign is what removes the reign of the 10 kings.

 

[6 Stories]

Yes he does.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


The events of verse 30 happen at the same timeframe as in verse 29. Darkness, falling stars heaven shaken and Christ seen coming all happen immediately.

The following things occur between the appearance of the Son of man in heaven and the Son of man coming in the clouds:

Rev 6:14 "and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."
Rev 8:4-5 "And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
Rev 11:19 "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake,..."
Rev 14:6-15
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 15:8-16:20
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Rev 18:1-19:10 This was too long to quote.

This is the reason the 6 story perspective on the return of Jesus is necessary.

 

[6 Stories]

That is some WILD stuff that is NOT written.

The coming Antichrist is not going to seek to kill everyone.

How do you interpret Matt 24:22?
"And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

The coming Antichrist is going to create a time of world "Peace and safety". That is what Apostle Paul showed the deceived will be saying in that time (1 Thess.5; Daniel 8).

The Antichrist will seek to go after ONLY those NOT deceived. That means Christ's elect who cannot be deceived, because they are "sealed" by GOD in Spirit.

1 Thes 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

During the first 3.5 years of Daniel's 70th week, the new Roman Empire will be formed with 10 kings and there will be a time of peace. When antichrist, from the area of Seleucia arises, he will bring the sudden destruction.

Dan 8:25 "And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

The peace antichrist offers likely refers to the economic security found by unbelievers through the mark of the beast. Being unable to participate in the economy will destroy many.

 

[ewq1938]

The following things occur between the appearance of the Son of man in heaven and the Son of man coming in the clouds:

There is no inbetween events as those are both the same thing, Jesus appearing in the 1st heaven which is where the clouds are.

There is ONE second coming left, not two.

 

[6 Stories]

The 'crowns' promised by Jesus represent REWARDS given out at His future RETURN (1 Corinthians 9:25; 2 Timothy 4:8; James 1:12; 1 Peter 5:4; Rev.2:10).

You are correct in what you have stated about the crowns you mention. That does not negate the fact that the things on earth were made according to the pattern that already existed in heaven.

2 different subjects there.

Look at the 4 stages of the locust God gives in the Book of Joel. That is what Satan gaining power over a 4th part is really about. Those 4 tools he does it with written in Rev.6:8.

I don't see the similarities that you do in the book of Joel.

The subject of Matt.24:22 is about the time of "great tribulation", which is on a later 'seal' of Rev.6. The idea of no flesh saved isn't really about a holocaust during the "great tribulation". The tribulation will be a time of world peace, so why didn't you understand that per Daniel 8 with the "king of fierce countenance" coming to destroy many using peace, and craft prospering by his hand? and according to Apostle Paul in 1 Thess.5 when the deceived will be saying, "Peace and safety" prior to the time of "sudden destruction" (on the day of the Lord, when Jesus returns)?

I agree that Matt 24:22 is about the time of "great tribulation."
The earthquake of Rev 6:12 ends the time of great tribulation. The rest of seal 6 occurs after the period of great tribulation.

I answered Dan 8 and 1 Thes in my last post.

See where Apostle Peter on Pentecost quoted from the end of Joel 2 as an ensample for the END regarding the cloven tongue. By Peter quoting Joel 2, he was showing how the cloven tongue is to manifest especially just prior to the coming of the "day of the Lord", which is the day of Christ's future return. So the main event prophesied for the manifesting of the cloven tongue is for the end of this world, which is why Jesus covered that in Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

Please clarify what you mean by the cloven tongue. I don't find the cloven tongue in Matt 24 or Mark 13...I found it at the end of your statements!

The "two candlesticks" of Rev.11, during the coming "great tribulation" time (6th trumpet - 2nd woe), are scheduled to prophesy against the beast along with God's "two witnesses". According to Lord Jesus, who do the "candlesticks" represent per the end of Revelation 1?

If 7 candlesticks = 7 churches, then 2 candlesticks = 2 churches. These 2 churches are the 2 witnesses comprised of the 144,000 Jews of Rev 7. The 2 witnesses are raised from the dead in Rev 11 and are seen as firstfruits of the resurrection as the 144,000 in Rev 14:1-5.

The pause (selah) with the 7th Seal represents an ending of the Seals, and preparation for the subject of the 7 trumpets (Rev.8:1-2). Jesus returns on 777 (actually 2nd part of the 6th Seal, but 7th Seal is included because of the pause; 7th Trumpet; 7th Vial).

That's what people say, but there is no evidence to support that point of view. I will post my chart at the end to show the overlap between the 6 stories, which is great evidence that there are 6 stories and not just 1.

Satan comes on 666. First part of the 6th Seal (Rev.6:12-13), 6th Trumpet-2nd Woe (Rev.9:11 thru Rev.11:13), 6th Vial (Rev.16:12-14). The beast system is prepared by the locusts of Joel before Satan comes.

Satan's power comes to an end at the earthquake of the 6th seal, as this is when the GT ends. You are correct about the 6th trumpet, but all of the vials are part of God's wrath which occurs after the GT has ended. Please see the chart.

The singing of the new song is for AFTER Christ's future return, not before. It's about the new song in Rev.14, and the 'song of Moses' of Rev.15.

The singing is in Rev 14:1-5 which is followed by Christ's return in Rev 14:14.
The song of Rev 15:3 is equivalent by those who die during the GT as seen in Rev 7. Heaven is opened, which will enable people on earth to see the 144,000 in heaven in Rev 15:5. This is also on the chart

The "firstfruits" of resurrection are represented by those who came out of their graves after Jesus' resurrection, and of those "spirits in prison" which Jesus preached The Gospel to, and led out of Satan's prison house in the heavenly. (See 1 Cor.15:20).

The firstfruits of the resurrection are specifically mentioned in Rev 14:1-5 as the 144,000.

Jesus alone, is mentioned as the firstfruits of the resurrection in 1 Cor 15:20, which leads me to believe those who came out of their graves went back into them at some later time like Lazarus.

The spirits in prison were OT saints seen in Luke's parable about the rich man and Lazarus. OT saints were in the 'good side of hell.' When Jesus shed his blood in heaven, he prepared heaven for mankind to be able to join him. This is when the spirits in prison, OT saints, were able to enter heaven.

The idea of "firstfruits of the Spirit" is not the same thing.

I'm not sure of your point.

The 144,000 represent only 'sealed' Israelites in Christ Jesus. The "great multitude" in that Rev.7 chapter represent those 'sealed' of the Gentiles. Both together represent Christ's Church today, and both together will go through the coming "great tribulation".

I agree that the 144,000 are sealed Israelites in Christ Jesus. The great multitude of Rev 7 are the dead in Christ who's spirits are in heaven at the end of the GT. This would include Gentiles and believing Jews, excluding the 144,000. I agree that all of these will go through the GT.

Only TWO Churches represent the "two candlesticks" of Rev.11, and it's those who will manifest the cloven tongue during the "great tribulation", giving a Testimony for Jesus against the beast.

Oh, the cloven tongue is a testimony for Jesus. I agree that the 2 churches represent 2 candlesticks who will give a testimony for Jesus against the beast.

 

[6 Stories]

Wekk thge stories lead to one conclusion, but have differing conclusions leading to that one conclusion.

What?

 

[6 Stories]

Well maybe believers will be seen being caught up to heaven in the rapture, or maybe they won't. the language is too inconclusive to be 100% sure. I am comfortable with just disappearing as we are transformed from mortal to immortal in a moment.

Jesus was seen. The 2 witnesses will be seen. The change from mortal to immortal is not the rapture. I do not have your comfort level.

Well Neb was the head of Gold before the vision so He was in the past, present and future until He lost His reign. NO biggie.

It shows 'hereafter' doesn't have to jump to some point in the distant future as most believe.

Yesd other than personal opinion, we have no evidence that angels are called elders and sit on thrones.

All that I have on this is that the tabernacle in Exodus was created after the pattern that already existed in heaven.
You are correct that this is weak evidence.