7 Common Errors of Interpretation for Chapters 4-6 of Revelation

[6 Stories]

You are missing the whole point I made.

No generation has only had a 24% death rate. You cannot stretch Revelation over the last 2,000 years like you describe. Every generation has had a 100% death rate. They are all gone.

I got your point. My point is that no generation has died at a rate greater than 25% specifically as the result of a conqueror, through war, famine and pestilence. The remaining 75% of any generation has died from other causes.

Revelation is not multiple accounts of the same time frame like the Gospels. Revelation is John's version of the Olivet Discourse, because he did not write the Discourse in his Gospel. He lived out the experience in real time.

I agree that the seals follow the pattern of the Olivet Discourse.

The point is that the 6 Seals are the end right before the Second Coming. But they don't repeat again in the Trumpets. The Second Coming does not start with the AoD.

Please download my chart at timeline.png.

Both God the Father and Jesus appear in the 6th seal. Both have come!
The seals don't repeat again in the trumpets, but events of the 6th seal do repeat in the 7th trumpet.
I agree that the second coming does not start with the AoD. That is the start of the GT.

The generations at the Second Coming are the ones who suddenly experience an unprecedented death rate besides the normal 100% death rate.

I don't know what you mean.

No one takes Adam's dead body, nor a set of bones that are changed and puts them on.

Adam will put on his old bones that will be raised immortal into the clouds and joined with Adam's spirit.

Paul explains that the old is taken off, and something new is put on. Jesus explains the old returns to dust.

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked."

Souls gathered in death and the grave are naked, and the body of death returns to dust. The redeemed were moved from the grave at the Cross, and no longer naked souls but clothed with God's permanent incorruptible physical body. So is the current state of all in Christ currently in Paradise, and Jesus brings them clothed with that body to meet, those alive in Adam's flesh on the earth, in the air. That is when those on earth change out of that body of death into God's body of life.

I agree with these statements.

That happens at the 5th Seal, as Jesus continues to the Mount of Olives and Jerusalem at the 6th Seal. That is the Second Coming.

I don't agree with the timing 'at the 5th seal.'
I do agree that Jesus comes to the Mount of Olives at the 6th Seal, the second coming.

 

[6 Stories]

Our Spirit Man looks just like our Flesh body. Our Glorious body will look like that image also, but it will not be a flesh body that has ever seen sin.

I agree, but I don't really know what we will look like. We will shine like the stars of heaven.

1 Cor. 15 is the Rapture, the dead in Christ are raised and we are CHANGED FIRST so we can go to heaven, our sin flesh can not enter heaven. We return with Jesus 7 years later at the 2nd coming.

Please show me where the rapture is mentioned in 1 Cor 15 and where Jesus comes in secret 7 years before his second coming.

That happens after the 1000 year reign.

I agree.

That is why 1 Cor. 15 is the Pre 70th week rapture, the 1000 yeas is future. At th9s point in time the 70th week is still to come.

1 Thes contains the 'trump of God.' 1 Cor contains the 'last trump of God.'
1 Thes contains the rapture. 1 Cor contains no rapture, only the change.

Paul is trying to teach the Corinthians faith in belief, and that Christ died and was seen by 500, they were fearing their dead loved ones would not gain everlasting life. So, Paul tells them Christ arose that we may have life, then he tells them THE ORDER of things to come.......THEN in verses 42-52 he explains it all in vivid detail.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming(The pre 70th week rapture).

There is no pre 70th week rapture.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet(1000 year reign).

Jesus reigns for 1000 years until the change mentioned in 1 Cor 15:52. At this time, Jesus has even put death under his feet (He rules over death), but he has not destroyed death.

Then Jesus lets Satan out of his prison to rule over those who have not been changed. Satan and the peoples of the world try to kill the saints but are not able to do so. This is when death is destroyed in verse 26 below.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

So the pre 70th week Rapture.........the 2nd Coming............. and finally the 2nd Resurrection where the wicked are judged and death is defeated forever more. Verses 42-52 explain the Rapture.

Flesh and blood can not enter Heaven. We go to Heaven to get our Glorious Bodies.


1 Cor. 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

I think you are just mistaken on that thought process brother.

I agree with this, but I believe the natural body comes out of the grave and undergoes the same change as those who are still alive.

That is not the same thing, SMH. Context matters. Here we know this is about Babylon's king, and so this was about Four Beast Kingdom ON EARTH, before the Kingdom Age comes. So, its HEREAFTER King Nebuchadnezzar, on this earth. Meanwhile Rev. 4 is the HEREAFTER in the context of the 7 Churches or complete Church Age (the THINGS THAT ARE).

The churches existed during the 4th beast kingdom, the context in which John was writing.

Daniel's use of the word hereafter therefore was used in the context of 4 world kingdoms. You know this.


After the 7 Churches and the Rev. 4:1 pre 70th week rapture comes the HEREAFTER. The number 7 equals Divine Completion. John foresaw in a vision his own rapture from the dead in Christ who arise.

Then he was in heaven before Jesus!

No seals are opened, the seals are not REAL EVENTS, they merely seal up the Scroll, with 7 Wax Signet Seals, thus God wrath can not fall until the 7th seal is opened.
View attachment 40763

Nothing can be read until the Seals are all loosed, that is why the 7th Seal is opened over in Rev. 8, where the Trumpet Judgments fall. Notice no angels are involved here, the covering Beast in Heaven says COME AND SEE (so all are future events to come when they are opened in Rev 6 they happen in Rev 8, 9 and 16) where as the Seven (7)Trumps have to be blown or sounded by an Angel, likewise the Seven (7) Vials have to be poured out by angels, no angels are ever seen whilst the Seven Seals are loosed. Jesus looses them in a metaphoric manner, he is saying with each seal, the wrath is closer, the wrath to come is closer et al.

Your opinion is logical, but the repetition of events reveals a different reality.

 

[6 Stories]

CONTINUED.......


Its the Pre 70th week Raptured Church SEEN in Heaven. Quit dodging facts sir. The 7 Church are the THINGS THAT ARE (Church Age) the things that will be HEREAFTER (one verse after the Church Age) from Rev. 4:1 on. Tryin g to play it off like this is not the Church in Heaven will not work. Two scriptures prove this overwhelmingly. In Rev. 4:2 and then in Rev.

Rev. 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. (So, immediately after John was told to come up here he's in the Spirit, or out of his body)

Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

So, John was told to come up here, he was in the Spirit, then saw the Pre 70th week Raptured Church who had all the things promised unto those who OVERCOME. Then in Rev. 5:9-10 we see those singing, in Heaven, say that Jesus has REDEEMEEMED them by his blood, that can only be the Pre Trib. Raptured Church. And they stated also that he made them Kings and Priest unto God. Well, 1 Chronicles 24 shows us the 24 orders of the Priesthood. You have to understand prophecy is much deeper than most think.

The Seals are opening a Scroll, THATS IT, everything else is IMAGINED. The Seals point top a future Anti-Christ only weeks or days away whilst Jesus is opening the seals post 70th week but pre Great Tribulation which happens in the exact middle of the 70th week.



You are just down a rabbit hole brother. No Seals can be opened until the 70th week HEREAFTER the Church Age begins. Seals 1-5 DESCRIBE the Anti-Christs 42 month rule. The silence is exactly what I stated, the Angels and Heavenly hosts are not joyful that billions of humans must be judged and killed. God was sad (it repented him when he flooded the earth) when he flooded the earth, this is a somber silence. Nevertheless, Judgment has to be brought via a Righteous God.

The Seals DO FORETELL the 7 Trumps, that is true, but they are only opened after the Rapture and JUST BEFORE God's Wrath falls at the 1260 point.

It appears we are at an impasse. I have given all the reasons that this point of view is erroneous. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[ewq1938]

If 7 candlesticks = 7 churches, then 2 candlesticks = 2 churches. These 2 churches are the 2 witnesses comprised of the 144,000 Jews of Rev 7.

You are leaving out one of the two witnesses which is the two olive trees. The two candlesticks are HALF of the two witnesses.

 

[6 Stories]

Of course they match, 1/3 of the world is ablaze/on fire. The Earthquake in Rev. 8 is THE IMPACT, the Earthquake at the 7th Vial is the 2nd Coming when Jesus puts his foot down. Come on, you know this.

Rev 8:5 "And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake."

Rev 4:5 "And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God."

Lightnings, thunderings and voices represent the throne of God. When the throne of God comes to earth, there is an earthquake just as there was in Ex 19 when God gave the 10 commandments.

Rev 8:5 and Rev 16:18 are the same event.
"And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great."

Come on, take another look! It's shown 4 different times in the Revelation, once without the symbolism for the throne of God.

The Earthquake in Rev. 11 happens during the 2nd Woe which can be seen in Rev. 9, Revelation 11 is not a real tine event per se, the 2nd (5th Trump) can be seen in real time in Rev. 8, just like the 3rd Woe (7th Trump) can be seen in Rev. 16, via the 7 Vials, which are the 3rdb Woe which emits from the 7th Trump. The Earthquake that is seen in Rev. 11 can not be the Rev. 8 earthquake nor the Rev. 16 earthquake.

Rev 11:13 "And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."
This earthquake ends the GT. This is also the earthquake of Rev 6:12, again, the last thing to happen in the GT, which is followed in Matt 24 by the signs immediately after the GT, the dark sky.
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll

Rev 11:19 " And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."
This is the same earthquake as Rev 8 and 16. All appear during the wrath of God which is the time following the GT.

The 3rd Heaven is God's throne. I do not think the passage says the 3rd Heaven is revealed, it says they are simply told to COME UP HERE. The Two-witnesses have glorious bodies, they can't be killed, God allows it on their 1260th day for a REASON, so we can understand they have to show up BEFORE the Beast because they DIE before the Beast dies, the Two-witnesses are the 1335, they show up 75 days before the 1260. 1335 - 1260 = 75. All of the numbers are how many days, from those events, it is until the 2nd coming ENDS ALL OF THESE WONDERS !! It is that simple.

The 2 witnesses are killed as Jesus was. They will be raised as Jesus was raised. They will be seen in heaven from earth as the heaven departs as a scroll - Rev 6:14 (firmament splits). They are the 144,000 in Rev 14:5. Heaven is also shown to be open in Rev 15:5. This is the same time as Rev 6:14. Then heaven is closed by the cloud in Rev 15:8 as the wrath of God is poured out in the 7 vials.

That is all wrong. The Two-witnesses are Elijah and I think Moses, the 144,000 is a CODE for the number of Jews who repent (Jews = AL 12 Tribes) and we know via Zech. 13:8-9 that 1/3 repent so 5 Million Jews will repent and flee Judea JUST BEFORE the 1260 Wrath of God falls. Thus the Two-witnesses shows up with ONE JOB, to get Israel to repent first and foremost. Then after that they pray down the plagues. The number 12 = Fulness and 10 = Completeness so Fulness x Completeness means ALL Israel or 5 million Jews who repent. 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 144,000 or ALL Israel who repent. The 144,000 are the First-fruits of the Jews (Wheat) the Church is the first-fruits of the Barley which does not need to be Crushed to be sifted. Wheat HAS TO be Crushed to be sifted. Its a sign, the Church is Raptured pre 70th week tribulation, because we do not need to be crushed to be sifted, we are already saved. Israel must be crushed in order to be sifted, that is why it is called "Jacob's Troubles".

It's called Jacob's Troubles because Israel was to be punished for 70 years under the Babylonian Empire. However, they did not fully turn to God, so the 70 years was multiplied by 7 or 490 years. 7 years are still future.

You have followed someone off a cliff brother. Wormwood is the Asteroid's FALLOUT !! This is bad eschatology my friend.

Wormwood is Chernobyl. If you read your Ukrainian bible, it says Chernobyl. The fallout is the 4th trumpet also representing the fall of Satan's angels to earth.

The 1290 AoD happens 30 days before God's Wrath STARTS at the 1260. I mean you are not even close brother, someone led you down a bad path at some point in time. Stay true to Jesus, but please do not try to teach prophecy brother. You haven't even got the basics down. You need to reevaluate.

1260 days of the 70th week under Rome. AoD and removal of sacrifice, 1260 days of 70th week under Seleucid AC. Last 1260 days is GT. This is followed by the time of God's wrath.

 

[6 Stories]

Firstly, read the Book of Revelation, understand the numbers. The number 7 Churches = Divine Completion.

Jesus told John write the things you have SEEN (Jesus in all his Glory) The THINGS WHICH ARE (The Church Age and the promises to those who OVERCOME, then in Rev. 4:1 we see the HEREAFTER (after the Church Ag, the 70th week events, CLEARLY). This is not really debatable tbh.

And yet here I am showing the errors of this theory you follow which has only led to confusion.

They are different, those killed at the 5th Seal CAN NOT BE RAPTURED, that is the my point. Thus those seen in Rev. 7:9-16 can only be the Pre Trib/Pre 70th week raptured Church, who indeed went through great troubles that saw millions of our brothers killed for their faith.

Why can't those killed at the 5th seal be raptured?
How can you state that those seen in Rev 7:9-16 can only be Pre Trib/Pre 70th week when the text says they came out of the Great Tribulation. They had to be there to come out of it.

God/Jesus FORETELLS what is in their hearts. Rev. 8 Trump 1 BEGINS that 1260 days of Wrath however.

No where is God's wrath mentioned in Trump 1. God's wrath does not begin until after the GT has ended. The GT is not shown until Trump 6.

No, that is not true, the Vials. In the 7 last plagues is God's Wrath FILLED UP. Meaning quenched. Well, of course God's wrath is finished off with the 7 Vials. Jesus shows up at the 7th Vial and starts the Kingdom Age of 1000 years on earth. You guys conflate mere words, do deeper studies.

God's wrath is filled up means that the sin of the world has reached the point where God needs to intervene. Sin fills the bowl. God's wrath empties the bowl according to the sin that was in it.

Israel was stuck in Egypt for 400 years until the sin of the those living in the land was filled up.

You are in error.


Of course it is, and part of that Wrath is him allowing the Anti-Christs 42 month rule.

AC's 42 ,month rule is the GT. God's wrath is then poured out; all 7 vials.

NO........Seals 1-5 FORETELLS of the Anti-Christs 42 month rule. Seal #6 FORETELLS of God's Wrath, part pf that wrath is the A.C.'s rule. That is why the parallel for the exact same 42 months. The 7th Seal merely LOOSES it all or begins the Wrath.


This is bogus bad Eschatology, Matt. 4-13 was all about the Disciples lives. Verses 7-8 was just Jesus SHOWING why vs, 6 was NOT THE END YET. Matt. 4-6 is about 70 AD. Verses 7-8 is a description why vs 6 can't be then 70th week end, THIS, THIS & THIS must happen before the 70th week comes. Then in vs. 9 we go right back to the Disciples, Jesus tell them they will all be killed, the false prophets here are not Christs but the Jupiter/Zeus types, they cried unto Rome complaining about losing their patrons to this new (Christian) religion, this they had Rome kill them all. This is why Jess says in vs. 23 ye must ENDURE until the end [ of their loves ] Jesus did not want them to become another Judas. Then in vs. 24 we see the Rapture after the Gospel is preached unto ALL THE WORLD, then and only then can THE END (70th week) come.

Rev 14:6-7
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
These verses occur between the firstfruits of the resurrection seen in heaven (Rev 14:1-5, aka the 2 witnesses) and Jesus' second coming. (Rev 14:14)
The 70th week ended when the 2 witnesses/144,000 were raised into heaven.
Then the everlasting gospel was preached.
Then comes Jesus.

The Disciples knew of China, India and the Scythians (modern day Russia) and thus they knew 100 percent that they would never see the 2nd Coming and thus that 70 AD (Rumors of wars) could not be Jesus come again. If they had rushed back to Jerusalem, with the fledgling church, that would have wiped out the Church via Rome. So, Jesus in Matt. 24-1-14 is doing ONE THING, teaching the Disciples what not to do and what to look for (being killed) it had nothing to do with END TIMES.

I mostly agree except these signs are repeated until the end.

And I just proved this WRONG brother, you bought that which I long ago rejected. Matt. 24:15-31 is the 70th week.


The 144,000 is the Jews who repent (1/3, 5 Million ENCODED via 144,000) and flee Judea.


ALL 7 Trumps are God's Divine Complete Wrath. PERIOD.

Only the 7th trumpet describes God's wrath. Show me God's wrath in trumpets 1-6.

The 1335 = the Two=witnesses

The 1290 = the False Prophet

The 1260 = The Beast.

Dan 12:11-12
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Daniel's 70th week is comprised of 1260 days under a new Roman Empire. 1st half of 70th week.
Daily sacrifice removed and AoD is set up. 1260 days with Roman Empire ruled by Seleucid king. GT. Days of AC and FP and 2 witnesses.
From the end of Daniel's 70th week until day 1335 is the period of God's wrath.
The GT and God's wrath are 2 distinct period of time.
Note: Authority of AC ends at end of Daniel's 70th week, but he is not destroyed until the period of God's wrath.

 

[6 Stories]

There is no inbetween events as those are both the same thing, Jesus appearing in the 1st heaven which is where the clouds are.

There is ONE second coming left, not two.

The sign of the son of man is the death, resurrection, and ascension of the 2 witnesses. When heaven opens, these 2 witnesses are seen in heaven from earth as the 144,000 in Rev 14:1-5. Jesus' return is pictured later in Rev 14:14.

The sign of the son of man is not the same thing as the 2nd coming. I agree that there is only 1 2nd coming.

 

[6 Stories]

You are leaving out one of the two witnesses which is the two olive trees. The two candlesticks are HALF of the two witnesses.

Just 2 different symbols for the same thing.
Jesus is the Lion and the Lamb does not mean there are 2 Jesus's.

 

[covenantee]

Covenantee said, "Little horn (kingdom) and king: The Roman papacy, governed by pope Gelasius I when the first of the three kings in Daniel 7:8,20,24, Odoacer of the Heruli, was overthrown in 493.

The three kings overthrown ("subdued"): Odoacer of the Heruli in 493, Gelimer of the Vandals in 534, Teia of the Ostrogoths in 553.

These horns/beasts/kings/kingdoms were subsequently recognized as the early prophetic precedents and fulfillments leading to the eventual Protestant Reformation."

To which I replied, "Jesus is not yet reigning on earth" and then I made a reference to the Lord's prayer.

My point was that if the 10 kings were the kings you stated, Jesus would be reigning by now because his reign is what removes the reign of the 10 kings.

Daniel 2
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Jesus was already reigning since Calvary, more than four centuries before the ten kings.

Matthew 6
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Present tense when written.

 

[ewq1938]

Just 2 different symbols for the same thing.

Nope. Two churches are not the same as two anointed people (the two olives trees)

In scripture, olive trees feed olive oil to the candlesticks so they can have a flame. To say the candlestick and the olive trees are the same is just wrong.

There is a reason why Rev 11 does not say the two witnesses are killed and lay in the street for 3.5 days. It's only one of those two witnesses who do, the two prophets which are two people rather than two churches which is a larger number of people.

Rev starts talking about the two witnesses and explains how there are 4 things that compose this concept, then it focuses on only part of that with the death of the two prophets.

 

[ewq1938]

The sign of the son of man is the death, resurrection, and ascension of the 2 witnesses.

That's not what the bible says.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The sign of the Son is directly tied to the second coming. The two prophets are already in heaven and have joined Christ's following army by the time of this verse.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

I agree, but I don't really know what we will look like. We will shine like the stars of heaven.

I will catch you tomorrow brother, old lady had me working all afternoon, need to rest a bit.

 

[Davy]

How do you interpret Matt 24:22?
"And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

The only ones the coming false-Messiah will go after are those who 'refuse' to bow to the "image of the beast" IDOL that he will setup for the whole world to bow in worship to, or be killed. And that won't be until the very END of the "great tribulation". So study the plight that Daniel and his fellows went through with refusing to bow to Nebuchadnezzar's idol. Same idea for the END.

And even then, with those of us that refuse to bow to the coming Antichrist's "image of the beast", or refuse his 'mark', that does not mean all of us. If it did, then there would be no Church left on earth when Jesus comes to gather His saints.

Mark 13:13
13 And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
KJV

Luke 21:17-20
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
KJV

 

[Davy]

You are correct in what you have stated about the crowns you mention. That does not negate the fact that the things on earth were made according to the pattern that already existed in heaven.

You have no Scripture evidence to treat that vision of the elders with crowns as having already being in effect. It's not, John was given a vision of a future event with those elders, and by the below verse you should have picked that understanding up...

Rev 5:9-10
9 And they sung a new song, saying, "Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
KJV

I don't see the similarities that you do in the book of Joel.

Might want to get busy and do that Old Testament homework in the prophets. Joel 2 wasn't quoted by Apostle Peter on Pentecost in Acts 2 for nothing.

I agree that Matt 24:22 is about the time of "great tribulation."
The earthquake of Rev 6:12 ends the time of great tribulation. The rest of seal 6 occurs after the period of great tribulation.

About that earthquake on the 6th Seal of Rev.6:12, that's not the same great earthquake that happens when Jesus returns. You should break that Rev.6:13 verse down that happens next, because it is about the stars of heaven falling to the earth. Per Rev.12:3-4, the "red dragon" (Lucifer) drew a third of the stars (angels) to earth at his rebellion in the old world which God destroyed. At Rev.6:14 forward is actually about Jesus' coming.

Thus the 6th Seal is in TWO parts. The first part is about the future Rev.12:7-17 events when Satan and his angels are booted out of the heavenly dimension down to our earth, in OUR earthly dimension. That is what will kick off the coming "great tribulation". That untimely figs is a metaphor pointing to that future event of deception. The winter fig grows in the winter and falls off early, in the spring. It represents Satan and his host that appear on earth first, and the fate of those who won't wait for Christ's return later, but instead fall away to the false-Christ that comes first.

Please clarify what you mean by the cloven tongue. I don't find the cloven tongue in Matt 24 or Mark 13...I found it at the end of your statements!

When those saints Jesus said that will be delivered up to councils and synagogues, Jesus said to not premeditate what to say, but speak what The Holy Spirit gives to speak in that hour. How did the cloven tongue of Pentecost manifest? By The Holy Spirit (see Acts 2).

If 7 candlesticks = 7 churches, then 2 candlesticks = 2 churches. These 2 churches are the 2 witnesses comprised of the 144,000 Jews of Rev 7. The 2 witnesses are raised from the dead in Rev 11 and are seen as firstfruits of the resurrection as the 144,000 in Rev 14:1-5.

Some of that is WILD, and not Bible Scripture at all.

FACT: not all the 144,000 represent Jews. Your claim they do shows you haven't studied your Old Testament history (see 1 Kings 11 thru 2 Kings 17). The title of 'Jew' originated from the sole tribe of Judah, and it applies historically only to those of the southern "kingdom of Judah". The Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.) said that title of 'Jew' is what those who returned to Jerusalem from the Babylon captivity called theirselves. That was only those of the "house of Judah" that went captive to Babylon for 70 years. The majority of Israelites were of the ten northern tribes of Israel, and when God split old Israel into two kingdoms, He gave Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim ten tribes to reign over as "king of Israel". The ten northern tribes didn't use that title of 'Jew'. Thus only the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi made up those historically known as Jews. By the time of Nebuchadnezzar destroying Jerusalem and taking the Jews captive to Babylon, all of the ten northern tribes had already been removed about 120 years earlier, captive by the Assyrians.

That's what people say, but there is no evidence to support that point of view. I will post my chart at the end to show the overlap between the 6 stories, which is great evidence that there are 6 stories and not just 1.

"Stories"? Sounds like men's doctrine. The idea of 'selah' is written... in the Psalms. So I wouldn't be so quick to pass that idea off in favor of men's 'stories' instead.

Satan's power comes to an end at the earthquake of the 6th seal, as this is when the GT ends. You are correct about the 6th trumpet, but all of the vials are part of God's wrath which occurs after the GT has ended. Please see the chart.

Charts mean absolutely nothing if they don't align with Bible Scripture. And I guarantee your's do not, simply because the first part of the 6th Seal of Rev.6:12-13 is about Satan's coming at the end of this world, PRIOR to Christ's return. And I already covered that. That idea of the "untimely figs" of Rev.6:13 is a metaphor that not that many understand, so you've got a lot of company. Likewise with the Rev.12:7-9 event, many try to push that back in history when Satan first rebelled, which is an erroneous interpretation, though popular.

The singing is in Rev 14:1-5 which is followed by Christ's return in Rev 14:14.
The song of Rev 15:3 is equivalent by those who die during the GT as seen in Rev 7. Heaven is opened, which will enable people on earth to see the 144,000 in heaven in Rev 15:5. This is also on the chart

Like I said, per Rev.14 & 15, the new song, and song of Moses, are sung by Christ's elect AFTER His future return. Those are visions of future events that John was given to see.

Rev.15:5 is a future event for AFTER Christ's future return also.

The main purpose of Rev.7 is the 'sealing' of God's servants for the END of this present world. The 144,000 that are sealed in the first part of that chapter represent Christ's very elect of the seed of Israel. The "great multitude" mentioned later are the Gentiles in Christ's Church that are also 'sealed' with God's seal by The Holy Spirit. With them, John is shown a vision of their future time with Christ after His future return.

The firstfruits of the resurrection are specifically mentioned in Rev 14:1-5 as the 144,000.

Jesus alone, is mentioned as the firstfruits of the resurrection in 1 Cor 15:20, which leads me to believe those who came out of their graves went back into them at some later time like Lazarus.

Not just the 144,00. The "great multitude" of Gentiles in Rev.7 represent firstfruits in Christ also...

James 1:18
18 Of His own will begat He us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.
KJV

Rom 8:23
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
KJV

The spirits in prison were OT saints seen in Luke's parable about the rich man and Lazarus. OT saints were in the 'good side of hell.' When Jesus shed his blood in heaven, he prepared heaven for mankind to be able to join him. This is when the spirits in prison, OT saints, were able to enter heaven.

The "spirits in prison" represent ALL... those who had died prior to Christ's death and resurrection, not only saints. Per Apostle Peter in 1 Peter 3 & 4, Jesus preached The Gospel to those in Satan's prison house, and led out of darkness those who 'believed'. Those became saints by their Faith on The Gospel of Jesus Christ. But all of those "spirits in prison" were then judged according to men in the flesh so they might live according to God in the spirit. That event was first prophesied in Isaiah 42:7 about the time of Christ's 1st coming.

I agree that the 144,000 are sealed Israelites in Christ Jesus. The great multitude of Rev 7 are the dead in Christ who's spirits are in heaven at the end of the GT. This would include Gentiles and believing Jews, excluding the 144,000. I agree that all of these will go through the GT.

Where's your proof that the "great multitude" of Rev.7 are the "dead in Christ"? That idea is not written there. Instead, John is given a future... view about those in the world to come. The idea that they came out of great tribulation is about their having gone through it, not necessarily having been killed by it.

And no, that "great multitude" does not... include Jews. The Jews among the 144,000 are the only Israelites of the seed that are 'sealed'. So I don't know why in the world you would try to push that idea of Jews among the great multitude.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Jesus was seen. The 2 witnesses will be seen. The change from mortal to immortal is not the rapture. I do not have your comfort level.

It shows 'hereafter' doesn't have to jump to some point in the distant future as most believe.

All that I have on this is that the tabernacle in Exodus was created after the pattern that already existed in heaven.
You are correct that this is weak evidence.

Well for the church, the change takes place at the last rump (not the 7th trump of revelation) It is okay if you do not accept it, we all will see when it comes.

As for being seen being caught up? You are forming a conclusion based on other events. Just because Jesus and the witnesses were seen does not mean the people caught up in the rapture will be seen. Like I said, time will tell.

 

[Timtofly]

I got your point. My point is that no generation has died at a rate greater than 25% specifically as the result of a conqueror, through war, famine and pestilence. The remaining 75% of any generation has died from other causes. I don't know what you mean.

If you don't know what I mean, how can you get my point?

Even with 2 world wars, it was still closer to 10% with 90% from natural causes.

The point is that at the Second Coming it will be 25% of the population that suddenly dies of war, plague, and famine. Or simply the rapture removing people from the earth.

 

[ewq1938]

Well for the church, the change takes place at the last rump (not the 7th trump of revelation)

The 7th trump is the last trump in prophecy.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

I agree, but I don't really know what we will look like. We will shine like the stars of heaven.

We will bear the exact same image forever, glad I was born a pretty boy (LOL).

Please show me where the rapture is mentioned in 1 Cor 15 and where Jesus comes in secret 7 years before his second coming.

Well, for starters Paul told us "I show you a mystery" and mystery comes from the Greek word musterion and half the word (muo the derivative) ) means God is silent by closing the mouth. So, God never gave the "Rapture to the Jews because their destiny is to rule with Jesus in the Kingdom Age, so why would God confuse them with a Rapture of the Bride of Christ? Israel is the bride of God, we are the Bride of Christ, Rachel was the preferred bride, Leah the forced bride. Jacob had two brides. In Revelation the 144,000 (5 million Jews or 1/3) have the Fathers name on their forehead. You guys fail to see the big picture because you get lost in the minutia at times. Romans chapters 9-11 explains it all, but Satan is good at whispering half truths.

So, what is the Fulness of the Gentiles? many actually think it means the Gentile rule, but if that is true then why is the Beast only said to rule for 42 months? People fail to understand there has been no Beast for nigh 2000 years, because the Beast was put forth by God over Israel for 490 years of penance, and 483 of those years passed with Jesus' death, they have only 7 years left once they are put back on the clock. But can you read Romans chapters 9-11 and tell when that will happen? Its there for all to see.

Let me give a quick synapsis. In Rom. 9 Paul tells how God called Abraham and promised a child and in Isaac shall thy seed be called. Then Isaac and Rebecca conceived and before either was born, God chose Jacob over Esau, (do you gets that this is ALL ABOUT SERVICE via God's choosing yet? That vet important later on in chapter 11). And God said the Elder shall serve the Younger (Israel will be an elder unto the Church, its a FORESHADOWING). Then Paul says God hardened Pharaoh heart so who can resist His will. (But he is referring unto SERVICE unto God). Later on Paul refers to God as the Potter who molds the clay vessel. Then in chapter 10 Paul quotes Isaiah and says "I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me." So heading into chapter 11 its VERY CLEAR, Paul is talking about service unto God and how God choses as He so pleases, when He pleases and whom He pleases to serve Him.

In Ch. 11 Paul starts out by saying God has not cast his people away forever, but he later says Israel were cut off because of unbelief but if they turn from their unbelief they would one day be grafted back into God's family. Lastly, he says this:

Romm. 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Let me break it down. Blindness IN PART means as a Nation only they are blinded, not as individual Jews, of course, God draws all men unto Him, but why couldn't Israel repent as a nation? The Diaspora, its hard to repent as a nation when you are no longer a nation !! So, until 1948 this was not even a possibility, they were as "Dead Men's Bones" just as Ezekiel 37 foretold they would be until the very end times. So, in order for Israel as a Nation to be grafted back in they have to turn from their blindness as a Nation, and they are now a nation, BUT.........they still will not repent until the Fulness of the Gentiles [Service] is come in. So, only when the Gentile Churches mission is complete will the 70th week begin. The church was not here for the 69 weeks, we will not be here for the 70th week, our mission is to spread the Gospel unto the world, that MISSION has to be complete by the time Israel's 70th week of penance falls on them. The Mortal Wound was Rome converting to Christianity. Only when the Church is gone does the Beast arise again. It takes a Beast over Israel before the 70th week penance can be completed.

So, you thinking God should have vast details of a "Peoples God had not known" makes ZERO SENSE brother, why would God want to confuse Israel with an event that is not targeted unto them for the most part? Israel's mission was to 1.) Birth the Messiah and 2.) Rule with the Messianic King during the Kingdom Age. The Churches mission was evangelize the whole world after Israel rejected God in person, Jesus Christ. Our missions do not cross paths via the timeline.

Where did the Beast leave off? Rome, where does it back back up? The exact same place.

THE WOUND WAS HEALED.


Rome Received the Mortal Wound above

The E.U. after the Rapture will Heal the Mortal Wound by conquering as Dann. 11:40-43 shows.


CONTINUED...........

 

[Ronald D Milam]

So, read Dann. 11:40-43, he conquers COUNTRIES to get at Israel, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Turkey which is also foretold in Dan. 8:9 via the direction he conquers from, the Northwest towards the East which is Seleucus/Turkey and South which is Egypt/Ptolemy. Dann. 11:40-43 then says Edom, Ammon and Moab will not be conquered, that just so happens to be where Israel flees unto during the 70th week, the 1/3 who repents, the Woman of Rev. 12 et al. Then he conquers all of North Africa. Now look at the European Neighborhood Policy on Wikipedia and elsewhere, it just so happens that the E.U. has deals in place (7 year deals I might add) with every nation shown above in Orange. When he goes forth conquering, this is who he conquers, not the whole world, then and ONLY THEN will the Beast be HEALED or Revived. The reason God says the 10 (Complete Europe) kings rule with the Beast is the E.U. is his base, he then conquers Israel and the whole Mediterranean Sea Region area where he heals the heretofore and UNDER THE SEA, Wounded Seven Headed Beast System, who has been dead and under water for nigh 2000 years because the gates of hell could not overcome the Church.

So, the Church is not a part of these events, Israel had a mission, Birth the Messiah "CHECK" and to Rule with Christ during the Kingdom Age for 1000 years "SOON TO COME" The Church had one mission, to take the Gospel unto the whole world "CHECK" via TV and Satellites and our modern tech via phones, instant messaging etc. etc. this has been completed, we are now just awaiting ONE EVENT.

Israel will join the E.U. imho, and this kicks everything off. The 70th week starts and the Church is Raptured. Its not a secret rapture, Paul told us about in several places, 2 Thess. 2:3 shows the Church must DEPART before the Day of the Lord arrives. Its not a DEPARTING of the faith, the Gathering unto Christ is spoken about in vs. 1, NOWHERE is Faith ever mentioned in the whole passage.

So, look on either side of the Church and you see the same Kingdom, look at the Statue, you have Iron legs, THEN.........Iron and Clay feet & toes which means the 10 (Completion) is the same nation, the E.U. but with many nations trying to be one which is why Clay is used, its not a cohesive nation ruled by force like Rome was, its a collection of many, many nations who freely give their power unto the Beast (A.C.). If the Church can not be overcome by the gates of hell then how can the Beast ever rule? There is a huge difference in individuals being Martyred and the Church being overcome, the fact is we the Church DELIVERED the Mortal Wound to the Beast, not the other way around, we converted the Beast Rome unto a Christian Nation, we overcame the Beast !! Amen, via our blood. We the church WILL NOT be overcome by the Gates of hell, never ever will that happen, Jesus said so.

There are tons of other things that point to a pre 70th week rapture, people who do not understand the Rapture's timing are just not, IMHO, able to grasp the full facts, they have tunnel vision. You do nit want to see what you do nit want to see. The Jewish bride and groom always spend 7 days in the wedding chambers at the fathers house. We return with Jesus in Rev. 19 and the A.C. and his minions are still on the earth. We see the Church in Rev. 4:1 being raptured as Jesus sounds the LAST TRUMP. We understand the Harvest always ended via the Feast of Trumps, we understand Jesus fulfilled the 1.) Passover (his death) and also 2.) Unleavened Bread (he knew no sin) 2.) The First-fruits (He was the first to overcome death) and that we are now in the 4.) Feast of Week or Harvest/Pentecost, and we are saving souls as the Church for the High Priest in heaven, Jesus, who will end "THE HARVEST" via the "LAST TRUMP" or 5.) Feast of Trumps. Then and ONLY THEN can Israel repent (it goes back to my Romans 9-11 points) because the 6.)Feast of Atonement was POINTING towards an End Time Israel repenting, and then lastly the 1000 year Kingdom Age is fulfilled by the 7.) Feast of Tabernacles (to Tabernacle means to DWELL with God) where Israel will dwell with God for 1000 years.

The Feasts were practiced by Israel over 3000 years ago, they had no clue what they meant, so don't you find it interesting that Jesus has to fulfill all 7 Feasts and that 6 are about Israel, and one is about the Summer Feast or "The Harvest" which just so happens to be the Churches mission on this earth? Then in Rev. 4:1 we see that Jesus tells John to "come up here" and John says he sounds as a "TRUMP". This happens right after the "THINGS WHICH ARE" Church Age ends (the 7 Churches = Divine Completion) in Revv. 3 and John is then told everything else he sees will be the "HEREAFTER" or 70th week. Its all so simple my friend, you guys complicate it by jumping to illogical conclusions or by listening to men who don't understand what they are talking about on prophecy.

CONTINUED..........

 

[Ronald D Milam]

1 Thes contains the 'trump of God.' 1 Cor contains the 'last trump of God.'
1 Thes contains the rapture. 1 Cor contains no rapture, only the change.

1 Cor. 15 is "The Rapture" those who are Dead in Christ will be raised and those who are alive will be CHANGED (this means we shed or flesh sins, in simple terms, we DIE and our spirit man goes straight to heaven because no sin flesh can enter heaven).

There is no pre 70th week rapture.

Of course there is, we have a mission on earth, out mission is different than Israel's mission.

Jesus reigns for 1000 years until the change mentioned in 1 Cor 15:52. At this time, Jesus has even put death under his feet (He rules over death), but he has not destroyed death.

Then Jesus lets Satan out of his prison to rule over those who have not been changed. Satan and the peoples of the world try to kill the saints but are not able to do so. This is when death is destroyed in verse 26 below.

You are confused brother, the CHANGE is 1 billion Christians dying, there are now 2 Billion Christians on this earth, we know Jesus says only 5 of the 10 virgins make the wedding call, now you know why ONE is taken and ONE left in Mattt. 24:36-51, its the exact same 50 % ratio. We return with Jesus and then ONLY the Jews serve with Jesus during the Kingdom Age as per human beings, the Martyrs of Rev. 20:4 will serve and reign with Jesus on this earth for 1000 years, but ONLY THOSE which refuse the Mark of the Beast which means they had to be alive during the 70th week AND be converted to Christ during the 70th week, which means no one not living during the 70th week will rule with Jesus on this earth during his 1000 year reign. Go read it, ONLY THOSE who refused the Mark of the Beast rules with Jesus for the 1000 years with Glorious bodies. HINT God doesn't need billions with Glorious bodies on earth, we will be in Heaven, IMHO, finishing off the New Jerusalem, that is why when it descends its called the Bride of Christ.

Death and hell (hades/the grave) is cast into the lake of fire along with Satan, after the 1000 years, which is over a 1000 years after the Rapture.

I agree with this, but I believe the natural body comes out of the grave and undergoes the same change as those who are still alive.

No, we go to heaven as Spirit men, we will be there in a flash, Satan and his Demons travel as Spirit men, why would God need to give us a body just to travel? We go to heaven in a FLASH and then we receive our glorious body in a grand ceremonial event, not flying through the air. The CHANGING is those who are alive, it says so in the scripture, we DIE, or our Spirit leaves our body to go be with the Lord. Pssstt, now you know in part what the COVID 19 event was all about, prepping the world for one billion deaths.

The churches existed during the 4th beast kingdom, the context in which John was writing.

Well sorta, but the fact is after 33 AD God left the Temple (He rent it or left) and in 70 AD God saw Israel from that point on as Dead Men's Bones so they were not an entity in God's eyes, and since each Beast is over Israel, they were placed over Israel to achieve a goal of repentance, then Israel not being around means there can't be a Beast over Israel (of course) any longer, but since the beast was around before Israel died off, Rome was still technically a Beast until they fell because in Rev. 17 we see that 5 Kings have fallen, and ONE IS (which means Rome would fall later), and then the LAST BEAST (A.C./Little Horn) would be the 7th and final Beast who will fall. But The Church OVERCAME the Beast, we delivered the Mortal Wound of Rev. 13.

Besides all that, the HEREAFTER is referring to the 70th week Beast which is the A.C. not Rome.

Then he was in heaven before Jesus!

Jesus is Eternal, John was created, Jesus was raised to the Heaven just after his death. John was shown the vision in 90ish AD. 90 AD comes after 33 AD. Besides all that, you point makes no sense brother. The Lamb was always in Heaven, if you are saying he was not there in Rev. 4, that just means John did not understand the symbolism at first, the Dead Lamb was Jesus.

Your opinion is logical, but the repetition of events reveals a different reality.

Well, its only repetition if they happen again, not if they are firstly prophesied. Joel 2:31 and the 6th Seal are both POINTING TOWARDS (Prophesying) about a coming Asteroid Impact or Day of the Lord God's Wrath on mankind. Everything starts with the Asteroid Impact as seen in Rev. 8 via Trumps 1-4.

It appears we are at an impasse. I have given all the reasons that this point of view is erroneous. Thanks for the discussion.

But I am correct, so the impasse is a bad chess move on your part my brother.