The Kingdom of God.... Is it within you?
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The way I see it, until such a time as the sun and moon cease from their ordinance, Israel shall not cease from being a nation before God. So are we agreed that at least until such a time Israel remains a nation before God?
And then we can look as see what is said about after that point in time?
Much love!
Johann
Well-Known Member
NASB"For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel"
NKJV"For they are not all Israel who are of Israel"
NRSV"For not all Israelites truly belong to Israel"
TEV"For not all the people of Israel are the people of God"
NJB"Not all those who descend from Israel are Israel"
The meaning of this paradoxical statement revolves around the different biblical meanings of the term "Israel."
1. Israel, meaning Jacob's descendants (cf. Gen. 32:22-32)
2. Israel, meaning the elect people of God (cf. TEV)
3. spiritual Israel, Israel meaning the church, (cf. Gal. 6:16; 1 Pet. 2:8,9; Rev. 1:6) versus natural Israel (cf. Rom. 9:3-6)
Only some of Abraham's children were the children of promise (cf. Rom. 9:7). Even the Jews were never right with God based solely on their lineage (cf. Rom. 9:7), but on their faith (cf. Rom. 2:28-29; 4:1ff.; John 8:31-59; Gal. 3:7-9; 4:23). It was the believing remnant who received God's promises and walked in them by faith (cf. Rom. 9:27; 11:5).
Verse 6 starts a series of supposed objections (cf. Rom. 9:14,19,30; 11:1). This continues Paul's diatribe format. It conveys truth by means of a supposed objector (i.e., Mal. 1:2,6,7 [twice],12,13; 2:14,17 [twice]; 3:7,13,14).
9:7 The second half of this verse is a quote from Gen. 21:12d. Not all of Abraham's children were children of God's covenant promise (cf. Gen. 12:1-3; 15:1-11; 17:1-21; 18:1-15; Gal. 4:23). This shows the distinction between Ishmael and Isaac in Rom. 9:8-9, and Jacob and Esau in Rom. 9:10-11.
9:8 Here Paul is using the term "flesh" to refer to national descent (cf. Rom. 1:3; 4:1; 9:3,5,). He is contrasting the natural children of Abraham (the Jews of Rom. 9:3) with the spiritual children (children of the promise) of Abraham (those who will trust God's promised Messiah by faith, cf. Rom. 2:28-29). This is not the same contrast as 8:4-11, fallen mankind versus redeemed mankind.
9:9 This is a quote from Genesis 18:10,14. The promised child ("the seed") will come from Sarah at God's initiative. This eventually will culminate in the birth of the Messiah. Isaac was a special fulfilment of God's promise to Abraham in Gen. 12:1-3 thirteen years earlier.
9:10 The wives of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were barren; they could not conceive. Their inability to have a child was one of God's ways to show that He was in control of the covenant promises, the Messianic line.
The other way was that the true Messianic line never proceeds through the oldest son of the Patriarchs (which was culturally expected). The key is God's choice (cf. Rom. 9:11-12).
9:11-12 Verses 11-12 are one sentence in Greek. This account is taken from Gen. 25:19-34. This example is used to prove that God's choice (cf. Rom. 9:16), not (1) human lineage or (2) human merit or achievements (cf. Rom. 9:16). This is the new mechanism of the gospel, the new covenant (cf. Jer. 31:31-34; Ezek. 36:22-36). However, it must be remembered that God's choice was not meant to exclude, but to include! The Messiah will come from a select seed, but He will come for all (who exercise faith, cf. Rom. 2:28-29; 4:3,22-25;--)
I concur.
J.
What you assert, that national Israel - the descendants of Jacob - is no longer considered in what you refer to as "Spiritual Israel", which is not the descendants of Jacob.
Much love!
Ethnic Israel has never ceased from being a nation according to God's promise. They have been exiled and returned, also according to the Scriptures.
Much love!
Spiritual Israel includes physical descendants (ethnic Jews), and physical non-descendants (ethnic Gentiles), of Jacob, who are in Christ.
I thought that was obvious.
So what is replaced?
That’s a fair way of looking at it but we also have Jeremiah 31:37. Heaven above can be measured as seen in Revelation 21:15-16 where the angel measures New Jerusalem with the golden reed.
Johann
Well-Known Member
My apologies for taking over your thread-going to Romans brother.
J.
No . . . they have been nation in exile, before returning to . . . . wait for it . . . their land.
Much love!
I have to say, I wasn't expecting this!
But I don't think that's going to get off the ground.
Much love!
You've replaced the descendants of Jacob with those who did not descend from Jacob, calling them "Spiritual Israel".
Much love!
This thread is really tanking looking at some of the arguments being presented.
Much love!
Johann
Well-Known Member
Well the interesting thing is that all the conditions of the Jeremiah 31 conditional promises are met in some way in the scriptures.
Once physically dispossessed of its land, it no longer physically qualifies as a nation.
An angel measures the temple = measuring the the heavens? I am certainly not convinced by this asserted equivalency.
And then there is the foundations of the earth remaining.
Much love!
Johann
Well-Known Member
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