The Kingdom of God.... Is it within you?

[grafted branch]

Not the same thing.

Clearly there is no actual rescinding of God's promise. The sun and moon rose today . . . Is Israel - to whom that promise was given - still a nation before God? Absolutely Yes.

Much love!

That promise was conditional and once the conditions were met that promise was fulfilled.

I would say ethnic Israel is not a nation before God.

You are arguing that the sun and moon rose as proof that the ordinances are before God. Jeremiah 31:36 says if the ordinances depart from before God, not from before mankind. I agree the sun and moon are rising and setting but that doesn’t necessarily satisfy the conditions of the promise.

In New Jerusalem in Revelation 21:23 there is no need of the sun or moon to shine in it. Where is God right now? Isn’t it entirely possible that He’s in New Jerusalem?

 

[covenantee]

Yes, they did. And it continues to be their land.

Much love!

They received all that God had promised to them. That's OT fulfillment.

See above for the NT fulfillment.

 

[Johann]

If you deny that God has appointed His Son alone as heir of all things, you declare God to be a liar.

Although I agree here but with statements like this-IF-deny-I call/declare God to be a liar.
I am out of here on this thread.

 

[covenantee]

Although I agree here but with statements like this-IF-deny-I call/declare God to be a liar.
I am out of here on this thread.

You can't possibly agree if you believe that Israel is an heir.

 

[Davidpt]

If New Jerusalem is currently in heaven then heaven above was measured through the vision John had, meaning it is possible to measure heaven above.

As far as the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, look at Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Heaven above which includes everything one can see with the naked eye and also with the help of telescopes, satellites, manned and unmanned missions into space, etc, and the things not being seen by any of these things, means that the heaven above is obviously endless. Something endless can't be measured, not even by God. To take heaven above to be meaning the NJ is ludricous. You obviously have an issue with Israel being a nation before God, otherwise you wouldn't be going out of your way to make God out to be a liar per the passage in question.

Yet, we have been over this numerous times already. And that you still insist heaven above can be measured, so that way God is not obligated to keep His promise that Israel shall remain a nation before Him forever. Except that's not the way it works. No one tells God what He should or should not do when He has already plainly declared what He will do.

 

[marks]

You can't possibly agree if you believe that Israel is an heir.

Context can sure be a pesky limitation, don't you think?

Here, you, if you are born again, shall also inherit.

1 Peter 1:3-5 KJV
3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4) To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

You can't possibly agree if you believe that Israel is an heir.

by Kimberly Troup

Recently, someone posted the following comment on our Facebook page: “They may be God’s chosen people, but that does not give them the right to deprive others of their land and their homes and their livelihoods. God loves those who seek JUSTICE, not land.”

And that got me thinking — whose land is it anyway? Since I’ve worked most of my adult life to support Jews living in the land of Israel, specifically, those living in the Biblical heartland, Judea and Samaria, I’ve come to realize this is a critical question that every Christian who loves Israel should answer with Scripture.

Psalm 24:1-2 The earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof, the world and those who dwell therein, for he has founded it upon the seas and established it upon the rivers.

King David says it so clearly in this verse: the Earth, the entire world belongs to the creator. When you think of a creative masterpiece, who initially owns that piece of art? The people who have created it. They are the only people who truly own it; they see its full potential, they see it with a vision for its ultimate destiny. They are trying to express an idea or a vision, to capture the inexpressible and share it with others. Then they choose who and how they will give their masterpiece to someone else. This is what God did when He created the world. He built paradise and shared it with mankind. So it truly is His to give to whomever He chooses. As we look further into Scripture we can see that He has made it very clear who is the rightful recipient of the Land of Israel.

Deuteronomy 32:8-9 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the Children of Israel. But the Lord’s portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage.

From this verse, we learn that the Most High gave each nation their inheritance; He divided mankind, and fixed the borders. Moreover, he fixed the borders of the nations, based on what the Children of Israel would require! God’s borders, then, are not set by governments or political parties. When I think about all of the borders that have been drawn and re-drawn in my short lifetime, I find it amazing that the borders of Israel cause so much angst for almost every nation on earth! When you look at it with a purely natural eye, the situation in Israel today with regard to borders is beyond ludicrous! If someone remodels their kitchen, or adds a porch to their house in Judea or Samaria, it causes consternation from the White House to the Kremlin, to parliaments across the world, and of course in The Hague. National borders changed and entire countries were created between the two world wars and no one made a fuss. So why is Israel different? Could it be because there is a spiritual element involved?

Genesis 12:1-8 Now the Lord had said to Abram: “Get out of your country, From your family And from your father’s house, To a land that I will show you. I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him, and Lot went with him. And Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran. Then Abram took Sarai his wife and Lot his brother’s son, and all their possessions that they had gathered, and the people whom they had acquired in Haran, and they departed to go to the land of Canaan. So they came to the land of Canaan. Abram passed through the land to the place of Shechem, as far as the Oak of Moreh (Alon Moreh). And the Canaanites were then in the land. Then the Lord appeared to Abram and said, “To your descendants I will give this land.”And there he built an altar to the Lord, who had appeared to him. And he moved from there to the mountain east of Bethel, and he pitched his tent with Bethel on the west and Ai on the east; there he built an altar to the Lord and called on the name of the Lord.

This one Scripture has two very important themes, 1) God’s commandment to Abram, first “Go to the land that I will show you”, and secondly His initial promise, “To your descendants, I will give this land”. 2) There are four very distinct city names mentioned, Shechem, Alon Moreh, Bethel and Ai. Look closely at this map to see where all four of these named cities are located. All four are found in the area that today the world calls the “West Bank”. This is the area that our friend on Facebook says doesn’t belong to the Jewish people. Where Jews are “land-grabbing” and forcing Palestinians out of house and home. When we look at this map with our Bible open and we read God’s commandment, “Go to the land that I will show you”, and then His promise, “To your descendants I will give this land”, it paints a very powerful picture. I think we can begin to see why world leaders get heartburn when a Jew builds a house in Judea or Samaria. He is fulfilling God’s commandment and partaking of God’s promise. The devil never likes to see anyone obey God or walking in the blessing of God.

Genesis 17:19-21 19 Then God said: “No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him. And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this set time next year.”

God knew what was going to happen in the twentieth century, when He fulfilled His promise to return the descendants of Abraham to the Land of Israel. He knew that the modern State of Israel would be established in 1948, and the Arab world would dispute Israel’s legitimacy. God states very clearly to Abraham, your descendants, your heirs to the promise, those that I will establish My covenant with will come through Isaac. Ishmael is your son, and he will also receive an inheritance, but My covenant people will be the sons of Abraham and Isaac.

Shalom,

Kim signature

Kimberly Troup
Director, US Office
CFOIC Heartland

To read Who Owns the Land Part 1
To read Who Owns the Land Part 2
To read Who Owns the Land Part 3
To read Who Owns the Land Part 4
To read Who Owns the Land Part 5



And with this-
Shalom and good night.
J.

 

[grafted branch]

Heaven above which includes everything one can see with the naked eye and also with the help of telescopes, satellites, manned and unmanned missions into space, etc, and the things not being seen by any of these things, means that the heaven above is obviously endless. Something endless can't be measured, not even by God. To take heaven above to be meaning the NJ is ludricous. You obviously have an issue with Israel being a nation before God, otherwise you wouldn't be going out of your way to make God out to be a liar per the passage in question.

Yet, we have been over this numerous times already. And that you still insist heaven above can be measured, so that way God is not obligated to keep His promise that Israel shall remain a nation before Him forever. Except that's not the way it works. No one tells God what He should or should not do when He has already plainly declared what He will do.

So your argument is that not even God the Father knows the measurements of the universe? How many hairs are there on a person’s head? And how many people have lived on earth so far?

Deuteronomy 1:10 The LORD your God hath multiplied you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude.

Not only can God know the measurements of all the stars of heaven, he knows exactly how many hairs are on each person when the number of people are as the stars of heaven.

The Jeremiah 31 promises were fulfilled.

 

[Davidpt]

So your argument is that not even God the Father knows the measurements of the universe?

If heaven above is endlessness, and surely it is, how can anyone including God measure something that has no bounderies? It would be like arguing that numbers, though they too are endless, but since God is God, this means that He can know the highest number that there is. Except God can't know the highest number if there is no such number. Most of us since grade school already learned, that no matter what number one can come up with, it will never be the highest number that one can come up with, because all one has to do is add 1 to that number each time and it will no longer be the highest number. One could do that forever and still not come up with the highest number. Not even God could, because if He could, it would contradict that there is no such number to begin with. Therefore, one can't know something doesn't even exist.

Obviously then, even with God some things are impossible. For example. Is it possible that God can lie? Is it possible that God can sin? No. Therefore, this alone proves that though He is God, there are still some things that are impossible for Him to do. And that includes it being impossible for Him to measure something that is endlessness.

 

[marks]

If heaven above is endlessness, and surely it is, how can anyone including God measure something that has no bounderies? It would be like arguing that numbers, though they too are endless, but since God is God, this means that He can know the highest number that there is. Except God can't know the highest number if there is no such number.

I expect that God knows the measure of the heavens, and He's searched out the foundations of the earth, of course! But the emphasis of Jeremiah's prophecy is clear, regardless of whomever is trying to poke holes in it in such a manner trying to prove the voiding of God's obviously emphatic promise that He won't ever reject Israel - the people that existed in Jeremiah's day, the nation, the children of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Much love!

 

[grafted branch]

If heaven above is endlessness, and surely it is, how can anyone including God measure something that has no bounderies? It would be like arguing that numbers, though they too are endless, but since God is God, this means that He can know the highest number that there is. Except God can't know the highest number if there is no such number. Most of us since grade school already learned, that no matter what number one can come up with, it will never be the highest number that one can come up with, because all one has to do is add 1 to that number each time and it will no longer be the highest number. One could do that forever and still not come up with the highest number. Not even God could, because if He could, it would contradict that there is no such number to begin with. Therefore, one can't know something doesn't even exist.

Obviously then, even with God some things are impossible. For example. Is it possible that God can lie? Is it possible that God can sin? No. Therefore, this alone proves that though He is God, there are still some things that are impossible for Him to do. And that includes it being impossible for Him to measure something that is endlessness.

Whether the universe is finite or infinite has not been resolved through science yet. Some people argue the universe has sides or wraparound, so when we look deep in space we are looking at some objects twice and at different times, meaning we could be looking at the same object with it being say 10 billion light years away in one direction and say 30 billion light years away in a different direction of space. It looks like two different objects but it could be the same object with 20 billion years of evolution difference, the light from the object wrapped around.

Let’s look at how the idea that this current universe is infinite and not even God can measure it fits with scripture.

How can God be certain the first heaven and earth are passed away if it’s infinite? If you remove numbers from an infinite set of numbers can you ever remove every number? No, there is always one more number that can be removed. It would be the same with an infinite old heaven and earth that must pass away before the new heaven and new earth come in.

I say the universe and creation is finite, it’s extremely large but finite. Just as the sands of the seas is an extremely large number but it’s not infinite.

 

[covenantee]

Context can sure be a pesky limitation, don't you think?

Here, you, if you are born again, shall also inherit.

1 Peter 1:3-5 KJV
3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4) To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Much love!

Of course. Complete with the key to the inheritance:

"...the power of God through faith unto salvation..."

Spiritual DNA.

Not physical DNA.

 

[covenantee]

by Kimberly Troup

Recently, someone posted the following comment on our Facebook page: “They may be God’s chosen people, but that does not give them the right to deprive others of their land and their homes and their livelihoods. God loves those who seek JUSTICE, not land.”

And that got me thinking — whose land is it anyway? Since I’ve worked most of my adult life to support Jews living in the land of Israel, specifically, those living in the Biblical heartland, Judea and Samaria, I’ve come to realize this is a critical question that every Christian who loves Israel should answer with Scripture.

Psalm 24:1-2 The earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof, the world and those who dwell therein, for he has founded it upon the seas and established it upon the rivers.

King David says it so clearly in this verse: the Earth, the entire world belongs to the creator. When you think of a creative masterpiece, who initially owns that piece of art? The people who have created it. They are the only people who truly own it; they see its full potential, they see it with a vision for its ultimate destiny. They are trying to express an idea or a vision, to capture the inexpressible and share it with others. Then they choose who and how they will give their masterpiece to someone else. This is what God did when He created the world. He built paradise and shared it with mankind. So it truly is His to give to whomever He chooses. As we look further into Scripture we can see that He has made it very clear who is the rightful recipient of the Land of Israel.

Deuteronomy 32:8-9 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the Children of Israel. But the Lord’s portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage.

From this verse, we learn that the Most High gave each nation their inheritance; He divided mankind, and fixed the borders. Moreover, he fixed the borders of the nations, based on what the Children of Israel would require! God’s borders, then, are not set by governments or political parties. When I think about all of the borders that have been drawn and re-drawn in my short lifetime, I find it amazing that the borders of Israel cause so much angst for almost every nation on earth! When you look at it with a purely natural eye, the situation in Israel today with regard to borders is beyond ludicrous! If someone remodels their kitchen, or adds a porch to their house in Judea or Samaria, it causes consternation from the White House to the Kremlin, to parliaments across the world, and of course in The Hague. National borders changed and entire countries were created between the two world wars and no one made a fuss. So why is Israel different? Could it be because there is a spiritual element involved?

Genesis 12:1-8 Now the Lord had said to Abram: “Get out of your country, From your family And from your father’s house, To a land that I will show you. I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him, and Lot went with him. And Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran. Then Abram took Sarai his wife and Lot his brother’s son, and all their possessions that they had gathered, and the people whom they had acquired in Haran, and they departed to go to the land of Canaan. So they came to the land of Canaan. Abram passed through the land to the place of Shechem, as far as the Oak of Moreh (Alon Moreh). And the Canaanites were then in the land. Then the Lord appeared to Abram and said, “To your descendants I will give this land.”And there he built an altar to the Lord, who had appeared to him. And he moved from there to the mountain east of Bethel, and he pitched his tent with Bethel on the west and Ai on the east; there he built an altar to the Lord and called on the name of the Lord.

This one Scripture has two very important themes, 1) God’s commandment to Abram, first “Go to the land that I will show you”, and secondly His initial promise, “To your descendants, I will give this land”. 2) There are four very distinct city names mentioned, Shechem, Alon Moreh, Bethel and Ai. Look closely at this map to see where all four of these named cities are located. All four are found in the area that today the world calls the “West Bank”. This is the area that our friend on Facebook says doesn’t belong to the Jewish people. Where Jews are “land-grabbing” and forcing Palestinians out of house and home. When we look at this map with our Bible open and we read God’s commandment, “Go to the land that I will show you”, and then His promise, “To your descendants I will give this land”, it paints a very powerful picture. I think we can begin to see why world leaders get heartburn when a Jew builds a house in Judea or Samaria. He is fulfilling God’s commandment and partaking of God’s promise. The devil never likes to see anyone obey God or walking in the blessing of God.

Genesis 17:19-21 19 Then God said: “No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him. And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this set time next year.”

God knew what was going to happen in the twentieth century, when He fulfilled His promise to return the descendants of Abraham to the Land of Israel. He knew that the modern State of Israel would be established in 1948, and the Arab world would dispute Israel’s legitimacy. God states very clearly to Abraham, your descendants, your heirs to the promise, those that I will establish My covenant with will come through Isaac. Ishmael is your son, and he will also receive an inheritance, but My covenant people will be the sons of Abraham and Isaac.

Shalom,

Kim signature

Kimberly Troup
Director, US Office
CFOIC Heartland

To read Who Owns the Land Part 1
To read Who Owns the Land Part 2
To read Who Owns the Land Part 3
To read Who Owns the Land Part 4
To read Who Owns the Land Part 5

View attachment 41555

And with this-
Shalom and good night.
J.

Has this writer ever heard of a will and testament?

Does this writer know what a new will and testament is, and means?

Has this writer ever heard of Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews?

Has this writer ever heard of the New Will and Testament?

Does this writer know what that New Will and Testament, written in the Precious Blood of Christ the Divine Testator, is and means?

Obviously not.

 

[rwb]

Spiritual Israel includes physical descendants (ethnic Jews), and physical non-descendants (ethnic Gentiles), of Jacob, who are in Christ.

I thought that was obvious.

So what is replaced?

If it must be given a name it should be "inclusionary theology" not "replacement theology" because Israel of God to whom the Covenant promise is given become an innumerable multitude of people from every nation, tribe, kindred and tongue, no longer one small nation as Israel of the flesh is.

 

[rwb]

Forgetting they are God's covenant people brother.
J.

Earlier you spoke only of the remnant being God's Covenant people? That was truth, because most of Israel of the flesh have died in unbelief, and to this day most of them living continue to be in unbelief.

 

[rwb]

There was no end date on God's land grant to the children of Abraham.

Much love!

But there was a stipulation they must be obedient to the Covenant, and God's patience clearly had an end date or they would still be in possession of all of the land of Cannan. The FACT that they lost the land through disobedience, as well as the utter destruction of the Holy City and Temple is physical proof that God has rejected ethnic Israelites who remain in unbelief.

 

[rwb]

Leviticus 26:44 KJV
And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.

Do you not understand that God NEVER cast them off utterly only because "the remnant of them shall be saved"? God's promises are always given only to whosoever is of faith! It's not about ethnicity, but is about faithfulness to God.

 

[Lizbeth]

If this is the covenant you are referring to, perhaps you missed the conditionality placed upon Israel IF... ye will obey My voice, and keep My covenant! Only THEN would the nation of Israel remain the people of God.

For the nation of Israel to be unto God a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation, they MUST keep the covenant.. As Scripture repeatedly affirms the nation of Israel failed to keep God's covenant, and for that reason when Christ came to earth a man the nation of Israel had already become an abomination and desolate nation unto God.
Exodus 19:5-6 (KJV) Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

God has rejected the nation of Israel as His people corporately, and only the remnant according to election of grace of them are the people of God, a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. Israel of faith with Gentiles of faith are God's peculiar treasure, a kingdom of priest, and an holy nation called Israel of God, not an ethnic people, but all people of faith. Exactly as Peter writes. The nation of Israel has forfeited forever the special status they HAD before God, through disobedience to His covenant, committing spiritual adultery, fornication and abominations, serving and bowing down to the gods of this world. For this reason Christ says to them "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."

Amen. And God foreknew Israel wouldn't be able to keep the old covenant, because it was weak through the flesh. He always had in mind to tutor Israel to Christ with the Law, and bring in the new and better covenant in the fulness of time....mystery of God from the foundation of the world.

But as Israel is loved for the sake of the patriarchs, their faithful forefathers....I believe they occupy a kind of unique position in the world. They are still chastised as sons periodically......prodigal sons.....in order to try and turn them back (as individual souls) to the Lord via His new covenant, the gospel. I don't think we are looking for a wholesale national repentance for Israel...Isaiah cried that only a remnant would be saved, as you pointed out. All the promises to Israel are only fulfilled through the gospel. Those prophesies HAVE ALREADY been fulfilled with the advent of Christ and His gospel, what the promised land represents in spirit - the kingdom of God - but only a remnant gets hold of it in each generation, just like the Gentiles. They are loved as sons, but unfortunately are also enemies for the gospel's sake. This is pictured in the OT with David's son Absalom.

 

[WPM]

Amen. And God foreknew Israel wouldn't be able to keep the old covenant, because it was weak through the flesh. He always had in mind to tutor Israel to Christ with the Law, and bring in the new and better covenant in the fulness of time....mystery of God from the foundation of the world.

But as Israel is loved for the sake of the patriarchs, their faithful forefathers....I believe they occupy a kind of unique position in the world. They are still chastised as sons periodically......prodigal sons.....in order to try and turn them back (as individual souls) to the Lord via His new covenant, the gospel. I don't think we are looking for a wholesale national repentance for Israel...Isaiah cried that only a remnant would be saved, as you pointed out. All the promises to Israel are only fulfilled through the gospel. Those prophesies HAVE ALREADY been fulfilled with the advent of Christ and His gospel, what the promised land represents in spirit - the kingdom of God - but only a remnant gets hold of it in each generation, just like the Gentiles. They are loved as sons, but unfortunately are also enemies for the gospel's sake. This is pictured in the OT with David's son Absalom.

Thanks for this.

Paul makes 3 overriding points in Romans 9–11:

· He establishes the great and lofty truth of divine election.
· He determines who true Israel is.
· He then shows how the Gentiles have been integrated into faithful Israel.

But the central (and overriding) theme that permeates Paul’s teaching in Romans 9–11 is his remnant theology. It is in these chapters that the teaching reaches its apex in regard to content and development. Paul brings much meat to the table and highlights the difference between national Israel and true remnant elect Israel. Paul also references various Old Testament Scriptures to show the continuity of the faithful remnant from the old economy to the new. He then shows on what grounds the Gentiles have been integrated into faithful Israel. He demonstrates how the New Testament congregation of God of all nations constitutes the covenant remnant of God today. He reveals how this elect company has grown to be a significant force on this earth. Paul lays all this out in a very structured, systematic and unambiguous way in these chapters.

Saying all this, the principal element that joins the old and the new, Jew and Gentile, together is shown to be Jesus Christ. He overlaps both covenants, He brings a continuity in salvation and is at the core of meeting man’s greatest need in any day. Paul, in Romans 9:30-33, shows how one’s response to Christ will ultimately determine one’s eternal destiny. Accept Him, and experience eternal life. Reject Him, and experience eternal damnation. Participation in God’s elect remnant therefore is determined by our relationship with Jesus – man’s redeemer and Israel’s only Messiah. Paul presents Christ as the epicenter of man’s favor with God. He supports his teaching with the analogy of a figurative stone which the elect embrace but the religious balk at. He refers back to the Old Testament to Psalm 118:22 and Isaiah 8:14 to support his thesis.

Romans 9:30-33 records: “the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.”

Paul shows how national religious Israel missed the boat because they rejected Christ (“they stumbled at that stumblingstone”). Also, they were bound to a religious aberration that revolved around keeping the law. The fact is: none of them could keep it. They were totally deceived if they thought they could. They were not a believing people which is why they were cut out of the good Israeli olive tree. On the other hand, Paul shows natural Gentiles (heathens) embracing that stone, experiencing salvation, and entering into the favor of God. Albert Barnes explains: “This rock, designed as a corner stone to the church, became, by the wickedness of the Jews, the block over which they fall into ruin.”

Through Calvary, the Gentiles have been brought into a new realm, a new spiritual status, and therefore enjoy a new citizenship, with new sanctified benefits. Gentile believers united with Jewish believers on an equal basis, inhabiting God’s Zion. Christ taught this same truth (that Paul shares in Romans 9:30-33) in Matthew 21:42-44 – relating various messianic prophecies to Himself (only adding Isaiah 28:16 to the mix). By doing this, Christ reveals the literal fulfilment of these figurative Old Testament prophecies in our day. In Matthew 21:44, Jesus laid it out as straight and simple as it could honestly be said: “whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.” Nothing has changed today!

Premils argue that Romans 9–11 is all about ethnic Israel. But it clearly isn’t! They fail to see that it is primarily focused on Christ and His spiritual elect (irrespective of race). They miss how the apostle defines who true Israel is and demonstrates how believing Gentiles would be integrated into faithful Israel on the grounds of saving faith. This is seen in the detailed symbolism in these chapters of the good olive tree. The whole analogy is central to his reasoning. He focuses on national Israel because there was so much confusion in the fledgling Church as to ethnic Israel’s place (or not) in the plan of God, with the introduction of the new covenant. Paul addresses this in great detail to give a proper perspective. But natural Israel is an extra in the main play, both in this narrative and in repeated New Testament instruction.

In the light of the introduction of the new covenant, and within a New Testament context, Paul takes time to examine the whole dynamic between national Israel and God’s righteous remnant. Romans 11:25-29 tells us: “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.”

This is a passage that has confused many Christians over the years. The reason for this seems to revolve around the phrase “all Israel shall be saved.” There are many that deduce corporate salvation for natural Israel from this. But is Paul contradicting himself in his Romans 9-11 discourse? In one breath in Romans 9:27 he is saying “a remnant shall be saved” (future, passive, indicative), in the next, in Romans 11:26, he is saying “all Israel shall be saved” (future, passive, indicative).

Let us be absolutely assured: Paul is definitely not opposing himself, neither is the Holy Spirit, who inspired him to pen this, confused. He is in no way teaching corporate salvation in Romans 11:25-29, as some would suggest, or else he would be reversing everything he has just taught in the preceding verses and chapters of this book (and his other Epistles) in regard to an elect remnant. Salvation was never secured on the grounds of race; it was always by grace through faith. Moreover, the Gospel opportunity in the New Testament is always shown to be open to all nationalities equally; this includes natural Israel.

 

[Lizbeth]

Thanks for this.

Paul makes 3 overriding points in Romans 9–11:

· He establishes the great and lofty truth of divine election.
· He determines who true Israel is.
· He then shows how the Gentiles have been integrated into faithful Israel.

But the central (and overriding) theme that permeates Paul’s teaching in Romans 9–11 is his remnant theology. It is in these chapters that the teaching reaches its apex in regard to content and development. Paul brings much meat to the table and highlights the difference between national Israel and true remnant elect Israel. Paul also references various Old Testament Scriptures to show the continuity of the faithful remnant from the old economy to the new. He then shows on what grounds the Gentiles have been integrated into faithful Israel. He demonstrates how the New Testament congregation of God of all nations constitutes the covenant remnant of God today. He reveals how this elect company has grown to be a significant force on this earth. Paul lays all this out in a very structured, systematic and unambiguous way in these chapters.

Saying all this, the principal element that joins the old and the new, Jew and Gentile, together is shown to be Jesus Christ. He overlaps both covenants, He brings a continuity in salvation and is at the core of meeting man’s greatest need in any day. Paul, in Romans 9:30-33, shows how one’s response to Christ will ultimately determine one’s eternal destiny. Accept Him, and experience eternal life. Reject Him, and experience eternal damnation. Participation in God’s elect remnant therefore is determined by our relationship with Jesus – man’s redeemer and Israel’s only Messiah. Paul presents Christ as the epicenter of man’s favor with God. He supports his teaching with the analogy of a figurative stone which the elect embrace but the religious balk at. He refers back to the Old Testament to Psalm 118:22 and Isaiah 8:14 to support his thesis.

Romans 9:30-33 records: “the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.”

Paul shows how national religious Israel missed the boat because they rejected Christ (“they stumbled at that stumblingstone”). Also, they were bound to a religious aberration that revolved around keeping the law. The fact is: none of them could keep it. They were totally deceived if they thought they could. They were not a believing people which is why they were cut out of the good Israeli olive tree. On the other hand, Paul shows natural Gentiles (heathens) embracing that stone, experiencing salvation, and entering into the favor of God. Albert Barnes explains: “This rock, designed as a corner stone to the church, became, by the wickedness of the Jews, the block over which they fall into ruin.”

Through Calvary, the Gentiles have been brought into a new realm, a new spiritual status, and therefore enjoy a new citizenship, with new sanctified benefits. Gentile believers united with Jewish believers on an equal basis, inhabiting God’s Zion. Christ taught this same truth (that Paul shares in Romans 9:30-33) in Matthew 21:42-44 – relating various messianic prophecies to Himself (only adding Isaiah 28:16 to the mix). By doing this, Christ reveals the literal fulfilment of these figurative Old Testament prophecies in our day. In Matthew 21:44, Jesus laid it out as straight and simple as it could honestly be said: “whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.” Nothing has changed today!

Premils argue that Romans 9–11 is all about ethnic Israel. But it clearly isn’t! They fail to see that it is primarily focused on Christ and His spiritual elect (irrespective of race). They miss how the apostle defines who true Israel is and demonstrates how believing Gentiles would be integrated into faithful Israel on the grounds of saving faith. This is seen in the detailed symbolism in these chapters of the good olive tree. The whole analogy is central to his reasoning. He focuses on national Israel because there was so much confusion in the fledgling Church as to ethnic Israel’s place (or not) in the plan of God, with the introduction of the new covenant. Paul addresses this in great detail to give a proper perspective. But natural Israel is an extra in the main play, both in this narrative and in repeated New Testament instruction.

In the light of the introduction of the new covenant, and within a New Testament context, Paul takes time to examine the whole dynamic between national Israel and God’s righteous remnant. Romans 11:25-29 tells us: “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.”

This is a passage that has confused many Christians over the years. The reason for this seems to revolve around the phrase “all Israel shall be saved.” There are many that deduce corporate salvation for natural Israel from this. But is Paul contradicting himself in his Romans 9-11 discourse? In one breath in Romans 9:27 he is saying “a remnant shall be saved” (future, passive, indicative), in the next, in Romans 11:26, he is saying “all Israel shall be saved” (future, passive, indicative).

Let us be absolutely assured: Paul is definitely not opposing himself, neither is the Holy Spirit, who inspired him to pen this, confused. He is in no way teaching corporate salvation in Romans 11:25-29, as some would suggest, or else he would be reversing everything he has just taught in the preceding verses and chapters of this book (and his other Epistles) in regard to an elect remnant. Salvation was never secured on the grounds of race; it was always by grace through faith. Moreover, the Gospel opportunity in the New Testament is always shown to be open to all nationalities equally; this includes natural Israel.

Amen, I think this is right.

We do need to distinguish between "Israel after the flesh" and the "Israel of God".

And it almost sounds to me in Romans as though Paul might have been addressing a misconception that the Jews of Israel could no longer be saved through the gospel, having missed the boat so to speak by rejecting Jesus on a national level. He was saying in effect, not so, they have not utterly been rejected so as to no longer be candidates for the gospel....but through our obedience those of them who are foreknown by God certainly may still be saved and grafted back into their own Tree.

I still do wonder what this means though...? I dont' have a grasp of what it is saying:

Rom 11:25

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.