Typical questions people ask about the Olivet Discourse.
- Thread starter CadyandZoe
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
There is a slight problem with this week in your interpretation. When is your week supposed to be resolved? Why do you have the NT church within the entire scope of desolation? That is a conflict of interest.
Besides, Jesus did not come to destroy nor abominate the Law. Jesus came to fulfill or make the Law complete.
Jesus is both the Messiah and the Prince to come, however the Prince to come part is the Second Coming. Daniel 9:27 cannot even take place until after the Second Coming.
Jesus was cut off, in the midst of the 70th week which is true. Only when Jesus returns as Prince will the last 3.5 years of the 70th week be fulfilled. Daniel 9:27 is after the final harvest during the days of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, per Revelation 10:7.
"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."
That is when the covenant is confirmed to show all have been redeemed who will be redeemed.
After that point the only redeemed are those who are beheaded. That is the time of Abomination of Desolation, when the only redemption happens when one's head is chopped off.
TribulationSigns
Active Member
False! It is not a literal statue, else the two-horned beast is literal too.
Incorrect again. Christ did NOT talk about the literal temple in Jersualem as premillennialists typically believe. He was referring to His New Testament congregation of Israel, the church where the abominations can be found that leads to desolate.
No where in Scirpture that the "beast", "little horn", "man of sin", or even "he" in Daniel 9:27 is a single person who will someday sit in future literal temple. You are dreaming it up with false doctrine of premillennialism.
You fail to see the word, "sacrifice" in all Daniel's verses speaking of the time of the end. Are you saying that the following verses in Daniel refers to Jewish blood sacrifices?!
Dan 8:11-13
(11) Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
(12) And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
(13) Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
You failed to realize that Daniel 8:11 echoes 2nd Thess where Satan will sit in the temple as if he is god (magnified himself even to the prince of the host). Per context, Daniel 8:9, the little horn is obviously Satan (a spirit that works through false prophets and christs) who is attacking the church. Now, do you think the sacrifice in verse 11 and 12 referred to an Old Testament Jewish blood sarcifice system to you, regardless if the context is really speaking about the time of the end during the reign of the Little Horn in the New Testament congregation of Israel?!
And here is another example in Daniel 11.
Dan 11:30-32
(30) For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
(31) And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
(32) And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
In verse 30, Satan was RESTRAINED (in bottomless pit since the Cross) from attacking the holy covenant, but when he shall return (released from the bottomless pit), he will have intelligence at work with his false prophets (Ie. God sees false prophets and christs as the frogs, horsement, and locusts in Revelation, brings lying signs and wonders, etc.) to silence the holy covenant (hint: the killing of two witnesses). Satan will be so successful, granted by God, to take away the daily sacrifice and the abomination to maketh desolate at that time with FLATTERIES (lies - lying signs and wonders). This language is exactly what Daniel 9:27 referred to! I am sorry, Douggg, but there is NO WAY Daniel 11 speaking about the ceasing of literal old testament jewish blood saracfice in 33AD or future temple in Jersualem because it does not makes sense. Selah!
There you go. One man. LOL.
Oh? God killed one man. Poor speculations based on misapplying of Scripture.
Finding his soul? LOL. More speculations.
Return his soul back to his lifeless body? Sigh... more unbiblical speculations.
of course not!
Crazy interpreation without Bible support whatever. You do not understand the symbolic meaning of the heads upon the beast. The heads signifies AUTHORITY, not men. The head wounds signifies that Satan's authority over men has been taken away or restrained so that God could build his church. After this, Satan's head will be restored, meaning he will take his authority back to deceive the nations. Nothing is talked about the need for soul to be resurrected in a lifeless body. Premillennialists...
(continue to more refutation on next page)
TribulationSigns
Active Member
No no no. You got it all wrong. God is not talking about ten literal kings (president, prime minister, king, etc. in the nations.) God is talking about false prophets and christs here that they did not have the kingdom because the Elect were running the church. But after the building of the Church is finished, God has agreed to give the power to Satan as He once had before the Cross to deceive the false prophets and christs into giving the kingdom (church) to Him! That way, they have replaced Christ with abominations that lead to desolation. Selah! Nothing to do with ten literal nations in Europe that will give one man the power over Europe... or even the world. Silly!
The little horn symbolically a short season of power that Satan receive after he comes out of bottomless pit.
False. Daniel 9:24 is talking about Jesus CHrist, the same prince per context. God did not talk about evil prince here. You make it up.
Yeah... your speculation is phony.
Not revelation of a single man. Rather the revelation of Satan working THROUGH false prophets and christs that the Elect in the churches can "see". You are looking for the wrong antichrist.
Rev 17:9-11
(9) And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
(10) And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
(11) And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
Do you even know what wisdom Christ was talking about here? It called for spiritual discernment. Not figuring out with world maps or looking for a city with 7 literal hills. The eight is the beast himself (Satan) but is "OF" the seven. Do you even know what the seven heads represent? And no its not literal empires!
Nor it will happen in the future with your fantasy literal temple and Jewish sacrifice system.
You forgot that Christ also talked about fig tree and ALL OTHER TREES as an example to discern the signs. And the generation is not 40 or 70 years but a generation of evil that will end.
Antichrist confirms a Mt. Sinai Covenant?! More Speculation!
You don't even have an idea what the battle of Gog and Magog is about... and where.
The Scripture does not support that. Read carefully:
Mat 24:15
(15) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
Mat 24:21
(21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:29-31
(29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The rapture won't take place "between" now and the abomination of desolation. Rather the rapture and the Second Coming will take place AFTER the tribulation of those days. Not before the abomination of desolation. You have been refuted many times yet you are obsessed with your charts.
Tim, Jesus in Daniel 9:26 was cutoff. Historically, around 33 AD.
The people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and sanctuary - as it say in the remainder of Daniel 9:26.
Historically, that destruction took part in 70 AD. - 40 years after Jesus left this world.
So Jesus cannot be the prince that come. The prince who shall come will be the little horn person, who as the Antichrist will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 7 year cycle required by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.
false prophets are not kings. The ten horns (kings, leaders) have their crowns in Revelation 13;1, because they will rule with the beast-king that last 42 months before Jesus returns, His Second Coming.
The abomination of desolation is found in Daniel 12:11-12. Two time frames are given in those two verses. 1290 days and 1335 days.
In Matthew 24:29, the tribulation of those days is referring to the 1290 days from when the abomination of desolation is setup. 1290 days from that time, the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, Matthew 24:30a.
1335 days from the abomination of desolation setup, is Jesus's Second Coming in power and great glory, Matthew 24:30b.
In the 45 day interval between the sign of the Son of man in heaven and Jesus's Second Coming - the kings of the earth will be gathering their armies at Armageddon in preparation to make war on Jesus.
------------------------------------------------
The rapture/resurrection is in 1Thessalonians5:9-11, before the Day of the Lord begins and God's wrath is poured out. The beginning of the Day of Lord is triggered by the transgression of desolation act by the Antichrist in 2Thessalonians2:3-4.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
You make no sense.
It cannot be Jesus because of something that happened in 70AD?
But it has to be a future sinner, because of what?
70AD was the desolation. But that could have happened 100 years after the Cross. 250 years after, or whenever. 70AD has nothing literal nor symbolic to do with Daniel 9:27. Obviously you have some future sinner in mind.
Jerusalem was destroyed after Jesus was cut off by Jesus' own people. Jesus is still the Prince to come as stated in the 7th Trumpet. The Covenant will be confirmed with the many, ie those who will beheaded or not. There is no 7 year Covenant among humans. There is only one Atonement Covenant that was in place before the foundation of the world. It will be confirmed at the 7th Trumpet to declare the end of time for that Covenant.
The Covenant is confirmed for one reason only, and that is the redemption of all who will be redeemed. Being beheaded is the last opportunity of redemption. That is the only reason time is extended for 42 months, when it should be over in the week of days of the 7th Trumpet.
Not with Daniel 9:27, but 70 AD identifies what people the prince that shall come will be of.
Jesus left this world before 70 AD and Jesus was not of the Romans. Jesus's people were the Jews.
Applying simple grade-school grammar:
The grammatical referent of "he" in verse 27 is "prince" in verse 26.
The grammatical referent of "prince" in verse 26 is "Messiah the Prince" in verse 25.
Therefore, grammatically, "he" in verse 27 is "Messiah the Prince".
There would be no reason for the term "the prince that shall come" if it referred to the messiah. And there would be no reason to identity the people of the prince that shall come - if it referred to the messiah, because the messiah is of Daniel's people the Jews.
According you your interpretation, the verse in your mind reads as...
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of Messiah shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
.... which makes zero sense because of the historical fact that the city and sanctuary were destroyed by the Romans.
Last edited:
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
.
Dan 9:13
As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.
Dan 9:14
Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.
Dan 9:15
And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly.
Dan 9:16
O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.
Dan 9:17
Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord's sake.
Dan 9:18
O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies.
Dan 9:19
O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.
Mat 24:15
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
1Co 2:5
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
Hugs
Dan 9:13
As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.
Dan 9:14
Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.
Dan 9:15
And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly.
Dan 9:16
O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.
Dan 9:17
Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord's sake.
Dan 9:18
O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies.
Dan 9:19
O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.
Mat 24:15
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
1Co 2:5
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
Hugs
You're substituting your subjective interpretations for the objective rules of grammar.
The objective rules of grammar must be satisfied before considering subjective interpretations.
Get the priorities right.
Messiah was the prince who did come, some 500 years after Daniel's prophecy.
The Romans were the people of Messiah, in serving Him as His agents of judgment and destruction upon apostate Israel.
The prophecy makes inspired sense both grammatically and interpretively.
When not contaminated with subjective modernist Darby/Scofield/Jesuit fantasy and fallacy.
Last edited:
ewq1938
Well-Known Member
- Jul 11, 2015
- 6,081
- 1,236
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
You speak of a LONG GT when Christ said it would be shortened so less long as originally intended. The GT coincides with a leader of the entire planet, performing miracles etc. That hasn't happened yet.
Your (mis)understanding of grammar rules is the beginning of your problems.
Saying that does not make it true. Jesus is the Messiah. But Jesus is not the prince that shall come. There is no reason to refer to both the Messiah and the prince that shall come in the same verse if they are the same person.
In Daniel 9:26 two persons. The Messiah cut off but not for himself. colon (grammar rule, compound sentence). Then the second person, the prince that come, being of the people who destroy the temple and sanctuary. semicolon (grammar rule, complex sentence) ; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Daniel 9:26 is a compound, complex, sentence.
Get real. The Romans crucified Jesus and the two others on crosses at the same time. Jesus's people were the Jews.
It is historical fact that the Romans destroyed the city and sanctuary. Long after Jesus left this world. The 7 year 70th week is still unfulfilled.
Last edited:
Go back and read my edited post about verse 26 being a compound, complex, sentence.Why didn't you demonstrate the "(mis)understanding of grammar rules"?
Awaiting.
Go present your argument to the Holy Spirit and Daniel, who inspired and wrote the prophecy.
Tell us what they say.
If you actually have such a post, copy/paste it here, or link to it.
And describe how a "compound, complex, sentence" invalidates referents.
Similar threads
