ScottA
Well-Known Member
Your version? Fine. Let me enlarge the truth of it...because it would seem you mean to ignore it.
"Faith is believing what you know ain't so" (Mark Twain).
- Thread starter O'Darby
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Your version? Fine. Let me enlarge the truth of it...because it would seem you mean to ignore it.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
No. You don't get to turn the tables. I wasn't even asking you--I was telling you.
Rich R
Well-Known Member
God wrote to a people who lived about 3,000 years before the present time, whose worldview was radically different than our own, and whose culture was equally radically different than our own. I wonder if they would have had any discussions about the scriptures being literal or not?
And what science are we speaking of? 10th century science? 20th century science? 30th century science? While science continually evolves, the words in scripture have remained the same. So which science are to be used in comparison to the scriptures? Again such a question would not have entered the mind of those to whom God actually spoke. They were interested in how to please the gods. They had no interest in how old the earth was. God wrote to them in order to address the former. While science is certainly part of God's creation, it was not the subject of the scriptures.
In general, I think that either trying to prove/disprove science with the scriptures or prove/disprove the scriptures with science is a futile endeavor.
1 Tim 6:20,
O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you. Avoid irreverent, empty chatter and the opposing arguments of so-called “knowledge,”
Last edited:
Well, when it comes to interpreting what Paul meant in his letter to Titus, I am persuaded by Daniel Wallace's exhaustive analysis, concluding "Consequently, in Titus 2:13 and 2 Pet 1:1 we are compelled to recognize that, on a grammatical level, a heavy burden of proof rests with the one who wishes to deny that 'God and Savior' refers to one person, Jesus Christ.” Sharp Redivivus? - A Reexamination of the Granville Sharp Rule | Bible.org
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Exactly. The point being...when all is said and done, we are all One, in Christ in God--no multitudes, no son of man, One. It is only the "image" that would make it appear differently.
I'm not sure what you mean by one in Christ. I look at it this way...
I now spend much of my time right inside the spirit as close as I can get right in their face. The Greek word menō translated "abide" often deals with being in him, which I'm very concerned about when it comes to walking in Christ, which I believe is the same as walking in the spirit. To be in him or to abide in him deals with remaining or continuing to be present. To dwell, live, and be within him to the end that we are operative in him by his divine influence and energy. My first red flag that started me looking into how to do this was when I realized it's the Catholics that teach we are sinners. They teach us to look at ourselves and our sin. I teach that we should look at Christ and to walk in his spirit.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
What did I ignore?
And it was not “my version” it was from the ESV, widely accepted by Christians everywhere….
What did you highlight compared to what YOU ignored?…..
”5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.”
What “form” does God have? As already mentioned, it is spirit form….all who occupy the spirit realm are spirits, including God. Can you deny that? (John 4:24)
How did Jesus “empty himself” to take the form of a servant? Who is he serving? Himself? Can God volunteer to become his own servant? Why would he need to? Do you not understand what redemption is? An immortal God cannot die. There are two things that God cannot do….lie or die.
You are reading the same words that I am, but you are reading right over the ones that challenge your belief.
I am explaining the whole passage…apparently you ignore what you don’t want to acknowledge.
I worship the same God that Jesus did....you have swallowed an ancient lie that goes back centuries to when the great apostasy, foretold by Jesus and his apostles, took over "the church". The triune god idea is borrowed from paganism, not the Bible.
Trinities are found in pagan religions but nowhere in the Bible will you find one.
Now this was written well. I like the two things God can't do... lie and die. Who is he serving Himself and why would He need to ain't bad either.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
As I recall it was about the size of the box that contained what he could comfortably process as a belief....something that rang true....that didn't require him to step outside the box to accept it.
"Seems to be" is the devil's playground.....lots of things "seem to be" which is why there is little agreement among those who profess to be "Christians".....the plain and simple truth is...they can't all be right...but they could well all be wrong in a world influenced by its god and ruler.... (1 John 5:19)...the one they chose.
Paul also said....
"During his life on earth, Christ offered up supplications and also petitions, with strong outcries and tears, to the One who was able to save him out of death, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear. 8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. 9 And after he had been made perfect, he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him, 10 because he has been designated by God a high priest in the manner of Mel·chizʹe·dek.
11 We have much to say about him, and it is difficult to explain, because you have become dull in your hearing. 12 For although by now* you should be teachers, you again need someone to teach you from the beginning the elementary things+ of the sacred pronouncements of God, and you have gone back to needing milk, not solid food. 13 For everyone who continues to feed on milk is unacquainted with the word of righteousness, for he is a young child. 14 But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their powers of discernment trained to distinguish both right and wrong." (Hebrews 5:7-14)
Paul speaks of spiritual infants.
This is what was evident in the first century.....these 'gifts' were to show the Jewish people that God had shifted his favor to Jesus and his apostles...their leaders could not perform miracles. To counter their effect the Pharisees said it was by the power of Beelzebub that their miracles were performed. The devil can mimic some things, like healing the sick....but he cannot raised the dead. The gifts were for the apostolic period of Christianity's infancy, after which (according to Paul) they were to cease and be replaced by the more mature qualities of "faith, hope and love". Belief in miracles was a beginning, not an end in itself. All those miracles...healing the sick, expelling the demons and raising the dead, will all be realized in the new world to come. The demons will be imprisoned while the kingdom of God rules redeemed mankind and brings them back to God in reconciliation.
Remember back to Moses and Aaron's audience with Pharaoh and God's instruction to perform the miracles he had told them to do, to demonstrate God's power to Pharaoh?......but Pharaoh's magic practicing priests could mimic the miracles showing the power of their own 'gods'. The devil has his own tricks....but the 10 plagues was something else.....each one designed to humiliate one of Egypt's gods....the devil could not compete with that. The final humiliation was the death of Pharaoh's firstborn son and heir...himself being the final humiliated deity.
The Bible does not say what would have happened......but regardless of what they had chosen to do, even the devil knew when he tempted Jesus that the angels were charged with his safe keeping. (Luke 4:9-12)
ScottA
Well-Known Member
That's all fine enough...for this side of the chasm.
Walking in the spirit here is not quite the same as without this side in existence. That will come. Meanwhile, our walking in the spirit is best not done like wearing a gown that is donned, as did Adam and Eve in an attempt to cover their nakedness. To the contrary, to walk "in the spirit" or "in Christ" is a walk made "within", as that is where the kingdom of God is.
But the issue here that I began to respond to, was that of Jesus not being God. He is the exception, the "only begotten"--which is to say "of" God, but spiritually, meaning "is." "Of" is a preposition meaning "is" in the spiritual context of God who is timeless. It is simply another way of saying "I am."
Meaning, although Jesus was born of a woman and as a man, it was not that He laid down his life during that time in history in which it is recorded, that made Him more than a man. But rather His having laid it down "before the foundation of the world." Having laid it down, at that time in history--that was just an enactment of what had already occurred, then made manifest, as a testimony to all the world. More importantly, it is then that He took it up again. Only God can do such a thing--only the I am.
Last edited:
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
That is the Cessationist position, which makes an amputee of the Body of Christ.
I am of the Continuationist position.
1 Corinthians 12:27-31 NIV
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.
28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets,
third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance,
and of different kinds of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?
30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret?
31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.
/
Behold
Well-Known Member
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
You actually made an on-topic point, Rich, so I'll respond!
Of course we can't use science to prove or disprove the Bible. Many disciplines of science do point in a theistic directiion. Hence, the multi-discipline Intelligent Design movement (and it's not alone). Science can greatly increase the strength of one's convictions.
We are, or always should be, talking about "the best current science" - which itself may be dramatically wrong, as has been proven over the centuries. On some issues, like the age of the universe, multiple disciplines of science have established this to a near-certainty. The science isn't off by billions of years. With something like evolutionary theory, the science is very much up in the air.
The "futile endeavor," IMO, is trying to read the Bible as though it were a scientific or historical treatise and then using such a reading to dispute solid science, even resorting to absurd pseudo-scientific "alternative science." With you, I question whether the authors of the Bible would've had any idea what we were even talking about if we suggested it must be read as literally, inerrantly, infallibly true in every possible sense.
Real science is humble about what it has achieved and can achieve. Bible literalism is a weird species of human pride and arrogance masquerading as "real faith." God created a universe that speaks of His glory and gave humans minds and senses capable of investigating and appreciating that glory. Bible literalism actually mocks God.
God calls those things that be not as though they were. And He is never wrong.
No we can't believe things that we just don't....I agree with that. That is why faith is not of our own...when I came to faith I believed in spite of myself and knew even back then that faith to believe was not of my own but had come from outside myself. Faith is of the Holy Spirit....I almost equate faith with being in the spirit. If you are in the spirit you are in faith. But we aren't always in the spirit on everything and there are different measures of grace and faith given, or we may be walking in a greater or lesser measure of it at any given time. At one time you might have faith for God to do something greater while at other times might only have faith for something much lesser.
My advice for someone seeking healing for a serious problem is that if you have faith for healing you will be healed.......just check yourself to see if you're healed, simple as that......if not you better go see a doctor (unless you know that you know for sure God doesn't want you to) and just ask and have faith that God will use the doctor. Don't wait until it's too late because you're afraid of an accusation that you don't have faith...that kind of fear is not of the Lord. I'm sure we've all heard stories of people even letting their children die rather than understand that they just don't have faith for that kind of healing......that is imprudent and unwise and tragic....not what the Lord wants from us. Not to mention that God typically intervenes when we don't have other options - we don't always need a miracle. Or in His wisdom He might want us to take a slower path to healing so that we experience His grace while we are on that journey.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Your view is an entirely secular point of view, not a point of view that is related to real Christianity.
Just remember that science is not the measure of truth.....scientists and historians often disagree on a great deal.......and history of science itself proves that science is often proved wrong about things and has to change course. It's not always so reliable that we should put all our eggs in that basket and assume it has the final word on things. And it certainly can't measure or observe or capture spiritual truths.....it can only try to deal with the temporal realm. I dont' think science proves the bible wrong.....it may only be indicating that we haven't properly understood something of what God meant by what is written.
We need the Lord, His Spirit, to open scripture to our understanding and even then we are only seeing in part. We shouldn't necessarily be looking for black and white two-dimensional certainty about everything.......there is a way in which God's word is meant to lead us to HE HIMSELF. Always looking to HIM, relying on HIM, and being led by HIM. We shouldn't pretend that we understand it all any more than we should pretend to have faith when we don't. It's ok to be in a state of wondering - even the angels wonder about things they don't understand. The bible isn't a textbook of facts to be approached like a textbook with the carnal mind...... it's a spiritual book and living word, and we are comparing spiritual with spiritual.
Similar threads
