"Faith is believing what you know ain't so" (Mark Twain).

[St. SteVen]

I thought you said you had read my testimony?

At my age, I can't even remember what color socks I had for breakfast. - LOL
Oh, yes, I remember now. (your testimony, not my sock breakfast)

/

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
That's a good observation.
I think the person that approaches their day asking themselves what they can do
for God today doesn't understand that dynamic. Wait for direction!

Right. And if direction doesnt come then I suppose you've entered into the rest of the Lord for that day!

I actually thought about this yesterday.
Children do this quite often. Run way ahead of their parents.
Thus putting themselves in peril.
When they get to a road they remember to wait for Mom or Dad before crossing.

/

 

[O'Darby]

Kind of disappointed to see this thread go as far off topic as it has, but I obviously have no control and I suppose it's inevitable. It is beginning to underscore the points in my original post.

Anyway, it no longer interests me. See ya down the road ...

 

[Behold]

(only God can heal anyway)

In the Gospel of John . Jesus performed seven miracles that characterize his ministry, from changing water into wine, at the start of his ministry to raising Lazarus at the end....

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Thirty years ago my sister gave me a letter from God on my birthday.
I was half accepting and half skeptical at first. Then I sat down and gave it a hard analysis.
My sister couldn't have authored that. It was deeply personal.

One of the things in the letter...
(remember, this was written to me.
I'm not trying to saddle anyone else with this,
even though I think it's good advice)

That's awesome! Except what do you mean saddle them with it? Like a burden? Brother, this is a privlege! But you're talking about the same thing I was talking about. The way the Lord wrote that letter to you, it was confirmed to as real, it was from God. He revealed Himself to you and what He said to you could not have been written by your Sister. So while you do have your proof, it's not proof that you can prove to anyone else. Thus they must have faith that you speak truely. Make their own choice. That how He is to me also.

Agree.

God requested that I ask him to walk with me daily.
And though I think that would be good advice for everyone,
I'm careful not to "saddle" anyone else with what God asked me to do.

Eventually I wrote a letter back to God. I read it to my sister.
But first I had to read the letter she had written for me.
She couldn't remember what it said.
And she was in tears when I read my response letter.
Meaningful to all three of us. - LOL

/

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Good. I misread you. Thanks.
Maybe I misunderstood to what degree you considered yourself a literalist and inerrantist?
Do you see no contradictions in the Bible? Do you know where the Bible came from?

I know where the Bible came from. Jesus wrote every word of it.

That would make you a literalist and inerrantist.

/

 

[RedFan]

In the Gospel of John . Jesus performed seven miracles that characterize his ministry, from changing water into wine, at the start of his ministry to raising Lazarus at the end....

I know this is a bit off topic, but does anyone else find it curious that the raising of Lazarus isn't mentioned in any of the Synoptics? Pretty impressive miracle! Certainly a notorious one; John 12:11 calls it the impetus for defections to the Jesus camp (“it was on account of him that many of the Jews were deserting and were believing in Jesus.”). And chock full of theological implications that would have fit in well with the Synoptics' message.

 

[ScottA]

Faith comes from getting a glimpse of something that is otherwise unseen, and believing there is something more to it.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

t. I can't simply make myself believe things I don't believe."

Makes me think of the saying “anyone forced against their will is of the same opinion still”
Saul/Paul gives a good example of a changed heart. (Imo)

Is it all pretense, some notion that pretending to believe what you know ain't so is somehow pleasing to God?

Pretending to believe what you know ain’t so is somehow pleasing to God?

To me “Faith the Hope, the evidence of things not yet seen” isn’t about science but what makes it pleasing to God? Christ was pleasing to God. Paul gives an example of pleasing to God. he writes to those calling him a failure and a reprobate. They are accusing him as one who is weak. he tells them even though you (yet) see me (their eyes don’t see) as one who fails… I pray you will know we don’t fail(I pray your eyes be opened, and the blind see). He urges them(brothers in whom Christ is waiting to be made manifest) to do what is right even though they (those they accuse) appear as those who are weak, both ways(Paul and the Corinthians) there is an interchanging of hope and faith of what is not yet seen or been made manifest but hope in it. Paul is sowing good seed into them saying I hope and believe “I trust” you will do what is right and will see. Not that we will be approved but that you be perfected in Christ. Isn’t Paul having faith in that which is not yet seen? But he is also asking them to show their faith in that which is not yet seen. Because they don’t see yet paul is not weak but strong in the Lord. To me Faith and Hope was (is) never about believing weird science but what is more pleasing to God than Faith and Hope in God for the betterment of others especially those we call weak but God can make strong for His glory. Faith and Hope is beautiful really…have you ever seen a mother or father who others don’t understand why they don’t give up already on their wayward child? As if seeing something unseen they continue in Faith hope and love for something better. Any wonder why those three remain.

Trying to read it literally; obsessing over obvious scientific and historical inaccuracies; attempting to reconcile inconsistencies and contradictions; wondering why so much of it doesn't speak to me as enlightened or spiritual at all; yada yada - this is just no longer part of my faith at all.

Can the literalist inerrantists say anything new or convince me I'm wrong? Or will you simply ignore this thread because to you "thinking" is antithetical - dangerous, even - to "believing"?

Those things divide. Kill. Steal. And destroy. Nothing keeps others away from Hope and Faith more than literal scientific historical debates over which brother has the true secret sauce. There is no hope or faith or love for the one that does not have the same perspective which then gives opportunity to be justified to call a brother “stupid” …one gets high and beats another down into the ground. How beating another down into the ground doesn’t ever pause to ask “oh why am I doing this? How does this fit in the word” …I have no idea. Yes to me…hope in that which is “unseen” is a hope in Christ, in that which is not yet seen in your brother. Seed sown. Waiting to be brought to maturity and made manifest. Yet we take a hammer and hammer Him into the ground with debates over science and history and call it belief and faith in that which is unseen.

 

[St. SteVen]

@MA2444, @St. SteVen, et al. - FWIW, I just copied this response of mine to an atheist on another board who asked for "signs" that might challenge his materialistic scienfism (worship of science):

I immediately thought of Bethel, Redding CA.
Here's an article quote from a scientific research group that is investigating miracles at Bethel.
GMRI stands for Global Medical Research Institute

"GMRI staff are given use of on-site facilities by Bethel, although the church does not control their research, they said, or otherwise financially support their work. While GMRI said they review thousands of claims of miraculous healing, only a small percentage meet their requirements for scientific verification. These requirements include strong medical documentation prior to prayer, instant or nearly instant healing after prayer, strong medical documentation of a recovery, and a recovery that is impossible to account for by medical means.

GMRI has not yet documented any medically verified miracles at Bethel during their three year partnership, but staff said they are investigating a number of specific healing claims from Bethel that seem likely to meet their criteria for verification and will comment further on specific cases after they are published." SOURCE Article from February 13, 2022

Notice that GMRI said there are a number that seem likely to them.

Here's a response to the question from Bethel staff.

"Asked in June of 2021 whether Bethel takes any responsibility for determining whether the anecdotal healings they publicize have really happened, former Bethel Communications Director Aaron Tesauro wrote that the process is complicated.

“Being able to verify physical healings through medical records retrieved before and after healing is a time-consuming process, and one that not every person is willing or able to pursue,” Tesauro said, in a series of statements for Shasta Scout that were recently confirmed by current Bethel Communications Director Brad Everett." SAME SOURCE

That makes sense. Those who demand proof are making a tall order.
Imagine what is required to please them. Medical/scientific documentation BEFORE and AFTER the healing.
The TONS of anecdotal evidence over the years of ministry at Bethel is strong, BUT it's only anecdotal.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
When Jesus prayed scripture, what Bible was he using?
When Jesus quoted scripture to the crowds, what Bible was he using?

When Jesus prayed scripture He used the Word of God that was written upon His heart.
When Jesus quoted scripture to the crowds He used the scripture that was written on His heart.

Okay. While that's true...
I gave you link which you didn't check out. That's okay.
Do you know what the Septuagint is?
The Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible.
That's what Jesus was quoting from as indicated in the NT quotes of Jesus.
This is why NT quotes of the OT in the NT testament don't match.

But, probably too much information... sorry.

He knew the scripture because He had read it before, quite a few times I would suppose.
I had another thought one time...Remember how scrture says that the Holy Spirit will bring to our remembrance the word of God?

Only the synagogues and the wealthy had their own scrolls.
Each one was hand made by a scribe. Very expensive to produce.

Bibles were not available to common folk in English until the mass printed version
of the King James Version of 1611 AD. (where did the Bible come from?)


Yes, Jesus was speaking of the Advocate to come.

John 14:26 NIV
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name,
will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

'

 

[St. SteVen]

What if I was oe of those who didnt read the Bible? Would Holy Spirit be able to bring to my rememberance something I had never read or learned? Actually, He probably could, He is God. But it did make me want to read it all (again, in fact!) Just to be on the safe said.

Do you remember this topic?

Bibliolatry: Worship/knowledge of the book MORE than the author

/

 

[St. SteVen]

@MA2444, @St. SteVen, et al. - FWIW, I just copied this response of mine to an atheist on another board who asked for "signs" that might challenge his materialistic scienfism (worship of science):

You aren't dealing with some uninformed spiritual novice here, folks. I welcome sincere discussion, but I really don't need your "correction."

Let us know if you get a response. Thanks.

/

 

[Phil .]

To who though? To our Carnal man or our spirit? I think a more accurate answer is, it is only true to the carnal man, for that is what the carnal can see and hear.
Of course it is untrue to our spirit man!

The duality of carnal man & spirit is a subjective belief. That’s what the quote was pointing out in the first place.

 

[Peterlag]

Faith is used in at least two different ways in the Bible. The most usual way in which it is used is in the sense given by Hebrews 11:1. In that sense, faith is believing in something that cannot be proven to be true: " Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." The other sense in which the word faith is used is with reference to the religion presented in the Bible, that fundamental set of beliefs and practices set forth by God for the correct relationship between God and man, the system which God has put in place establishing that relationship.

There is no way to ascribe to Jesus as having faith in the first sense, namely the definition or sense given by the definition int Hebrews 11:1. It is only in the second sense that one can ascribe to Jesus, the Son of God, the second Person of the Trinity, as being the faith of Jesus.

• “With the predominant idea of trust (or confidence)” (Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament).
• “Firm persuasion, a conviction based upon hearing” (Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words).
• “Firm persuasion” (A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament by E.W. Bullinger).
• “State of believing on the basis of the reliability of the one trusted; trust, confidence” (A Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, W. Arndt and Wilber Gingrich, 2000; usually abbreviated “BDAG”).
• “It is the attitude of complete trust in Christ...” (The New Bible Dictionary).
• “In the New Testament, ‘faith’ is used in a number of ways, but primarily with the meaning ‘trust’ or ‘confidence’ in God” (Hollman Bible Dictionary).

We read in Hebrews 11:1 “Now faith [pistis] is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see” (NIV). The NASB uses slightly different vocabulary but gives the same message which is “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” So the Bible itself defines pistis as assurance or confidence in something and a good way to express that in English is by the word “trust.” Faith has been defined and explained so many different ways that it's a difficult concept to grasp, but “trust” is simple to understand. The lexical sources listed above defined it when they defined pistis as a confidence, a firm persuasion, a conviction based on the reliability, or trustworthiness... of the person or thing that is trusted. Trust also has to have an object and by that I mean something that is trusted. The human mind cannot “just trust” because we have to trust something. It can be God, our spouse, our friend, or even that the sun will come up tomorrow, but trust requires an object because we have to trust some trustworthy thing.

Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son who is expressing the acknowledgment of his Father’s promises and power. He is not God. As I stated earlier, the faith of Jesus Christ is the relationship existing between God and Christ in the bond of the covenant between them. The faith Christ has is his faith because of his acknowledgment and acceptance of his Father’s new covenant. Thus, the “gospel of Christ” is born. This faith Jesus Christ has is solid because it's the trust Jesus Christ has with God, who brought him into this special relationship that created the bond of the new covenant between them. We can tap into this faith by our believing and walk and live within the power of the Scriptures because we are connected to the faith of Jesus Christ. It's not our believing that makes us righteous, but the faith of Jesus Christ, whereby we not only have our standing, but also have access to the high and holy privilege that comes with that spiritual standing.

 

[JBO]

Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son who is expressing the acknowledgment of his Father’s promises and power. He is not God.

He is God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.

As I stated earlier, the faith of Jesus Christ is the relationship existing between God and Christ in the bond of the covenant between them.

You can state it as many times as you like and each time you do you will be wrong. There is never stated to be any covenant between Jesus and God and thus no such bond. They are one.

John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

John 17:5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

John 17:22 "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;

He is God

The faith Christ has is his faith because of his acknowledgment and acceptance of his Father’s new covenant. Thus, the “gospel of Christ” is born. This faith Jesus Christ has is solid because it's the trust Jesus Christ has with God, who brought him into this special relationship that created the bond of the new covenant between them. We can tap into this faith by our believing and walk and live within the power of the Scriptures because we are connected to the faith of Jesus Christ. It's not our believing that makes us righteous, but the faith of Jesus Christ, whereby we not only have our standing, but also have access to the high and holy privilege that comes with that spiritual standing.

Any translation/interpretation which speaks of the faith of Jesus Christ with faith being in the sense of Hebrews 11:1 is false. Thus passages such as Romans 3:22, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 3:22 or Revelation 14:12 as given by the KJV are incorrect. In each of those verses, the correct translation/interpretation must be faith IN Jesus Christ.

 

[JBO]

Point taken. Still, the Greek word ethnē translated as “nations” in Matt. 28:19 is universally interpreted to include Gentiles―making it a complete reversal of Christ’s earlier instruction to the apostles to reach out only to the Jews (Matt. 10:5-6) and of his prediction that the apostles won’t complete their mission to the Jews before his return (Matt. 10:23).

I agree with the first part of your statement. I am not sure your understanding of the last part about Matthew 10:23.

It strains logic to assume that his disciples could have understood Jesus’ last words to refer to other than Gentiles. Whatever word he spoke to his disciples (in Aramaic?) that got translated as ethnē by the gospel writers, there is no reason to presume a mistranslation.

The apostles did not even understand the gospel and its meaning until after Jesus had ascended to the right hand of the Father and the apostles had been filled with the Holy Spirit first at Pentecost and then later as necessary.

 

[ScottA]

Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son who is expressing the acknowledgment of his Father’s promises and power. He is not God.

On the contrary, the fact of God lowered Himself in the form of a man--is not proof that He is not God--but rather that He is.

 

[St. SteVen]

My own faith must at least fit within the four corners of what I'm capable of believing.

This has been quite the lively discussion. But we seem to be getting off topic a bit.
I'll take my part of the blame there.

I wanted to return to this aspect of box size and believing outside the box.
Even the idea of either growing or shrinking our box as we grow in faith.
I haven't decided whether box size (or contents) effect the size of faith or not.
Up for discussion...

Was Jesus statement in Matthew 8:26,
“You of little faith..." a criticism of the disciples box size?
It seems that the four corners of what they were capable of believing
didn't include authority over life-threatening storms.
But why should it? Nevertheless, Jesus seemed disappointed in them.
I'm not sure why.

Also curious is what I have observed about the seemingly LARGE faith of
those with a small box size. What's up with that? It's like they don't know any better,
or vice versa. A child-like faith. Ignorance is bliss? - LOL

/

 

[Aunty Jane]

On the contrary, the fact of God lowered Himself in the form of a man--is not proof that He is not God--but rather that He is.

Where does it say in the Bible that “God” lowered himself in the form of a man?
If this is a reference to Phil 2, then you need to reread what it says….it says that the son existed “in God’s form”….what is God’s “form”?……John tells us that “God is a spirit”, so to be in God’s “form” the pre-human Jesus was also a glorious spirit, like all spirit creatures are. (John 17:5, 24)

The laws of redemption would have to be given a new definition if God himself were to become a mere mortal. But, if Jesus was the immortal God, then he could not die. If the redeemer did not die the same death as Adam, then the set price of redemption was not paid…..it would have been ridiculously over paid.

To redeem mankind, all the redeemer needed to be was sinless…the exact equivalent of Adam, to buy back what Adam lost for his children.

God’s law required “atonement”….at-one-ment…one for one. The law stated…”an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life”. The life offered to redeem the human race descended from Adam had to be the same as the one that was forfeited. An immortal God cannot pay for the sins of a mortal man. And there were now no sinless humans who could offer themselves to God to save their fellow humans.

God “sent” his own son to pay the ransom demanded under God’s unalterable law. (John 17:3)
He did this without hesitation and left his glorious spirit body to become a human embryo in the womb of a young virgin.

This insistence on Jesus being God does not find support in the Bible at all…..Jesus is what he called himself…”the son of God”…..not once is he called “God the Son”…the RCC made that up in order to promote their altered god. They swapped the “sun god” and made him the “son god”…..a simple shift in terminology imposed on its members who were not permitted access to God’s word and were kept in ignorance for centuries, compounding their lies with doctrine after doctrine that were all based on pagan Roman sun worship. Of all the Catholic doctrines that should have been discarded this should have been the first….it is a clear breach of the first Commandment to put another “god” in the Father’s place. It is blasphemy.

This is a clear case of humans creating their own box for their god, and trying to scripturally squeeze him into it….but there are too many bits that do not fit, so they simply cut them off, rather than accept the box he came in.