GISMYS_7
Well-Known Member
Believe and look for the very near rapture "catching up" or be left behind===your choice!!
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I will go further than you, and state the Second Coming is prior to the time of Jacob's trouble called the GT. Jacob's trouble is the separation of the sheep and goats, and then the final harvest. Jesus and the angels will be present on the earth, during the Great Tribulation. This is found both in Matthew 13 and Matthew 25.I am of the Pretrib persuasion. I didnt make that decision lightly either. I used to be solidly posttrib. I've made a few pre trib comments on this board and it seems like some people freak out about it and want to be snarky and stuff. I've been called that I speak heresy (how is that even possible?), and all sorts of mean arrogant stuff. Does it take arrogance to be posttrib nowadays? I dont understand that.
Two Christians, one pre, looking out the window for Jesus, and one post who is watching TV because Jesus wont come until posttrib. Jesus comes unexpectedly, who is He going to be pleased with more? The one watching for Him or the other?
Suppose the pretribber was wrong but looking for Jesus...He will still see the black boot Gestapo coming for him with their mark of the beast before the one watching TV.
It seems to me, that pretrib is a safe position either way. And yet, I get called out as a false teacher and all that jazz. Can anyone explain the reasoning behind that?
Matthew 24:44-46
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.../KJV
Point 1. Jesus comes for the rapture of the church by surprise. There are no signs or prophecy which must happen before He comes. We know exactly when the 2nd Coming is. 1260 days after the Abomination of Desolation. So it is two seperate events. Deep study has shown this. We can go through it all here if it's done in a friendly manner. There's a lot to it and I don't want to waste my time proving something if all everyone wants to do is fight & argue. ??
I did not say you gave a calendar date, but you wrote on the day that Jesus returns to stand on the Mt. of Olives. Is this not what you wrote in your post #6 ?
"Then immediately after the asleep saints are resurrected and Jesus descends from Heaven with them, those of us who remain still on earth are then "caught up" to Jesus and those asleep saints, on His way to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, per Zechariah 14, as written."
There's that DESPERATION attack from another spirit against the actual written Bible Scripture again. Jesus revealed in Luke 17:37 that the 1st one TAKEN is to wheresoever the FOWLS are that eat on a dead carcase. The Matthew 24:28 version of His answer using the Greek word for a dead "carcase".Believe and look for the very near rapture "catching up" or be left behind===your choice!!
...and yet rev 14 has two gatherings to heaven DURING THE TRIBULATIONThere's that false rhetoric again brethren in Christ, with that, "I used to be solidly posttrib...".
I used to believe in Santa Claus too when I was a little kid. And that is how one should treat man's FALSE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEORY which is of 'another spirit', and not from God in His Word.
Notice he quotes Matthew 24:44-46 to try... and show support for a Pre-trib Rapture when those verses have absolutely NOTHING to do with a Pre-trib Rapture.
See my next Post where I cover those Matthew 24 verses line upon line instead of only a PORTION of it like those on man's FALSE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEORY do.
Brethren, you've got to contest the Pre-tribbers when they post Bible Scripture, because they treat posting of Bible Scripture like cannon fodder. They don't care that it has no proof of their Pre-trib Rapture theories, they only want to TRICK you into thinking that they understand The Bible when they do not, and really they don't care to know The Bible. That is the only way they can push their trickery on you, depending on you... not knowing wh... at The Bible actually says.
There's that false rhetoric again brethren in Christ, with that, "I used to be solidly posttrib...".
I used to believe in Santa Claus too when I was a little kid. And that is how one should treat man's FALSE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEORY which is of 'another spirit', and not from God in His Word.
Notice he quotes Matthew 24:44-46 to try... and show support for a Pre-trib Rapture when those verses have absolutely NOTHING to do with a Pre-trib Rapture.
See my next Post where I cover those Matthew 24 verses line upon line instead of only a PORTION of it like those on man's FALSE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEORY do.
Brethren, you've got to contest the Pre-tribbers when they post Bible Scripture, because they treat posting of Bible Scripture like cannon fodder. They don't care that it has no proof of their Pre-trib Rapture theories, they only want to TRICK you into thinking that they understand The Bible when they do not, and really they don't care to know The Bible. That is the only way they can push their trickery on you, depending on you... not knowing what The Bible actually says.
Exactly.Well waddayouknow someone decoded my screen name. Finally!
IS that why you always ignored my scriptures when we talked rapture before? SO there's no use in posting scriptures for you, because of your hardened heart?
Ok so riddle me this: If Matthew 24:44 doesnt speak of a pretrib rapture then what does it mean? And when? SHould I tear that page of Matthew out of my Bible?
Exactly.
When those verses are in context, we have Jesus saying He is GATHERING pretrib
38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
Jesus said;
Before the flood normal life with commerce and peacetime setting.
Noah enters ark ( a type of heaven) pretrib
The flood comes and takes Noah and sinners away.
HMMMMM...Taken away. All are taken away...Hmmmmm
Jesus said "That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man"
Then he says in his pretrib coming/gathering;
One taken, one left.
50% of those groups of 2 vanish.
Half the church stays.
....and we are still in Jesus setting of BEFORE THE FLOOD.
He concludes with;
Coming as a thief in the night
Be ready
Watch for his pretrib coming.
But you will not see a postribber ever honestly address those verses.
Why???
Because they have a white knuckle grip on a farce that Jesus can only come one time.
A babe in Christ with a bible can debate these misguided souls.
Mat 25 is a continuation of The "before the flood" setting.
Rev 14 has gatherings during the trib..
Plus the other pretrib rapture verses.
Not even closeApostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the day of Christ's future coming and gathering of His faithful Church...
1 Thess 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
If we believe that Lord Jesus rose from the dead, then also we should believe that Jesus will bring the dead 'asleep' saints with Him when He comes. That is what Paul is saying there.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
The actual word for "prevent" in the Greek does not mean that; the Greek word means 'precede', to go beforehand. Paul is saying we who remain still alive to that day of Christ's coming, we shall not precede the asleep saints that are already with Jesus (per 2 Cor.5, remember, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord).
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
There in red is what those on man's false Pre-trib Rapture definitely skip and omit in their false teaching. By that Paul shows the 'asleep' saints are RESURRECTED first. Just when brethren does the FUTURE RESURRECTION HAPPEN?? Per Jesus in John 5:28-29, the future resurrection happens ONLY on the LAST DAY of this present world. That is when Paul is showing here that the RESURRECTION of the asleep saints will happen, and when Jesus comes to gather His Church.
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV
Only that 17th verse is about what some call a 'rapture'. The actual word in the Greek is harpazo, and it means to seize. The KJV translators chose the "caught up" phrase for it, as the word rapture actually comes from a Latin translation from Greek harpazo. (I prefer to use that "caught up" phrase most often simply because of how those behind men's false pre-tribulational rapture theory have abused the word rapture by wrongly teaching this gathering event by Christ will be PRIOR to the tribulation, which is obviously against what Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, their making Jesus a liar.)
So there it is, showing that those on man's false pre-trib rapture theory don't really even know what Apostle Paul taught about the timing of Christ's coming to gather His Church, per the 1 Thessalonians 4 Scripture.
I mostly agree except Rev 19 is in heaven with the already gathered saints from 7 years prior.I agree, and to pick up where you left off...(!!)
Our Lord is the God who tells the end from the beginning. Noah's ark was all about being a types and shadows of the rapture. Revelation 19:7 says 'The Bride has made herself ready' Jesus calls the ones who will be raptured the Bride. We call it, the Church. But scripture warns us that some will profess all their deeds and He will have to say, I never knew you, Matthew 7:21-23 Those left behind will wail. They are they lukewarm fence sitters and those who had sin in their lives on the day He shows up! So the real church (the Bride) will all be taken and many left behind people will suddenly repent and say uh-oh. I need to get serious with the Lord...If you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15) they will be the new church and go through the great trib so while the GT is happening on earth, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb is going on in heaven! This sounds like it will be the biggest best BBQ party that anyone in the Universe has ever been to!! I dont want to miss that!!
Ponder this one as a type and shadow!
Daniel 9:25-26
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined..../KJV
V24 sounds like a commandment to His people. I believe this is shows us how the Bride makes herself ready! I watched an Allen Nolan teaching on this subject before and he went through all the math of it and made it make sense. His conclusion was that...They knew the Messiah would be coming, and they were not ready for Him in keeping His commandments. They weren't watching for Him. So IIRC, the 69 weeks (of prophetic years) that the Lord said they owe Him for and when he went through all the math, he somehow figured out that it figured out to be May 14th, 1948. The very day that Israel became a nation again.
A type and shadow of things to come. Read the entire chapter of Daniel 9 and it tells exactly about all their transgressions and stuff, it reads like last evening's news! (sic). How the world is now! We know the Messiah will be coming. The bride is the spotless ones. You cant be having sin in your life. No partying, affairs, homesexuality, thievery, or anything. That stains your wedding dress. (And she showed up for the wedding that day with a totally filthy wedding dress on! And He said, Uh, she isnt my Bride! So she will be left behind. She wasnt ready.
This is all being done according to old Hebrew wedding proceedings. First there is a Betrolal (Being born again!) then the groom leaves to go and prepare a home for her! He builds a place for her on His Fathers land (Yes!!) and she does not know when he will return for her. She must be ready and have plenty of oil for her lamp because the groom usually returned at night and those potential Brides which were not ready...were left behind in the rapture is what it means to us. If the Bride is excited about her wedding she will be ready. Thinking planning making herself ready. Look out the window again, I heard something! (That's the girl I would marry!
I had a fiance once and we were going to be married and when I went to go pick her up that day, she was still sleeping. (not really) but I didnt marry her! She said she will marry me but there are a few things that she wanted to do first...Who would marry her? Not me. Not the Lord either apparently!
The Bride if she had made herself ready she might have seen me out the window cming from afar and run out to meet me! That is the girl I would marry, one that loves me like that, and she was spotless and beautiful...!! I'm sorry I took so long honey but I was making a place for you that is extra special!!
That's what's going on. And the 70th week of daniel which is 1 day per year as figured by a prophetical calander is 7 more years. There is the 7 year tribulation period which completes the 70 weeks of daniel 9. With the last 3.5 years being the so called Great Tribulation.
Hmmm, One one hand we have great tribulation, such as the world has never seen before! (and you think it's bad now?!). And on the other hand you have the Marriage Supper of the Lamb! The best BBQ party anyone has ever seen before! Easily easy to get excited over! The Lord loves His Bride like no other! And He loves surpises! Which hand should I choose? Hmm. Lol! I do not want to miss the Rapture. We know the Groom is coming!
Can you imagine what it will be like if we are actually watching for him and ready in spirit when He comes?! I expect overwhelming joy. We have to be ready and watching for Him though. I suppose what that means is becoming an over the hill gone Jesus Freak!
It is a cloudy day, and He said He will come in the clouds, so it could be today! I had to e sure. Will it be cloudy tonight? Hmm.
The Rapture will definitly be pre trib and it is all in scripture too, but that's another long post, lol. Sorry it too me so long to write this post I had to keep coming back to after I checked at the window!
Mucho Falsehoodo that above is....and yet rev 14 has two gatherings to heaven DURING THE TRIBULATION
So your doctrine fooled you into believing the dead in Christ are NOT RAISED first.
Just reporting verses
Refute the bible if you must.
Impossible, and that goes directly... against the written Scripture...I will go further than you, and state the Second Coming is prior to the time of Jacob's trouble called the GT. Jacob's trouble is the separation of the sheep and goats, and then the final harvest. Jesus and the angels will be present on the earth, during the Great Tribulation. This is found both in Matthew 13 and Matthew 25.
Paul's rapture and Second Coming are represented in the 5th and 6th Seal. That is prior to the Trumpets and Thunders.
Well waddayouknow someone decoded my screen name. Finally!
IS that why you always ignored my scriptures when we talked rapture before? SO there's no use in posting scriptures for you, because of your hardened heart?
Ok so riddle me this: If Matthew 24:44 doesnt speak of a pretrib rapture then what does it mean? And when? SHould I tear that page of Matthew out of my Bible?
The Jewish wedding feast has absolutely NOTHING to do with the event of Christ's future return to gather His Church.I agree, and to pick up where you left off...(!!)
Our Lord is the God who tells the end from the beginning. Noah's ark was all about being a types and shadows of the rapture. Revelation 19:7 says 'The Bride has made herself ready' Jesus calls the ones who will be raptured the Bride. We call it, the Church. But scripture warns us that some will profess all their deeds and He will have to say, I never knew you, Matthew 7:21-23 Those left behind will wail. They are they lukewarm fence sitters and those who had sin in their lives on the day He shows up! So the real church (the Bride) will all be taken and many left behind people will suddenly repent and say uh-oh. I need to get serious with the Lord...If you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15) they will be the new church and go through the great trib so while the GT is happening on earth, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb is going on in heaven! This sounds like it will be the biggest best BBQ party that anyone in the Universe has ever been to!! I dont want to miss that!!
....
Davy, you wrote that the rapture takes place in Matthew 24:31, the day of Jesus's return, did you not ?Now you are making up LIES.
For I never said what day to expect Jesus' coming.
You clearly have lost your FALSE THEORY DEBATES, so now you default to PERSONAL ATTACK with your LIES.
May GOD rebuke you, in the Name of Jesus Christ! And rebuke is coming, get ready.
Stop with the drama please.Mucho Falsehoodo that above is.
There are only TWO comings by Jesus Christ written of in all of God's Word, even in Zechariah 9:9-10.
Christ's 1st coming was meek as a Lamb to be crucified on the cross for the remission of sins of those who believe.
Christ's only other coming, a 2nd coming, is on the LAST DAY of this world and is when He will gather His Faithful Church and end the tribulation and this present world, the events that will happen the "day of the Lord", which is the day of His only future coming.
Thus you have LIED against The Holy Spirit in The Word of God and will be held accountable for it.
We will note that you did not and can not unpack the gathering of rev 14.Mucho Falsehoodo that above is.
There are only TWO comings by Jesus Christ written of in all of God's Word, even in Zechariah 9:9-10.
Christ's 1st coming was meek as a Lamb to be crucified on the cross for the remission of sins of those who believe.
Christ's only other coming, a 2nd coming, is on the LAST DAY of this world and is when He will gather His Faithful Church and end the tribulation and this present world, the events that will happen the "day of the Lord", which is the day of His only future coming.
Thus you have LIED against The Holy Spirit in The Word of God and will be held accountable for it.