Idolatry

[Bob Estey]

I believe faithfully Jesus worshipped the God of Israel who’s known as YHVH, or YHWH. So yes I believe he contested his Fathers name as well. You know God desires for his name to be known right? The Bible expresses that he desires it to be so.

People deciding nic-picking over a perferred name is something I do not want to get into conversation about, if you prefer not to use a name, so be it, Bob. Amen.

You should allow people to respond to your statements.

 

[MatthewG]

You should allow people to respond to your statements.

Haven’t you been doing that this whole time? Anyway, I believe faithfully as stated what’s in my heart concerning your question, Bob. You know not many people really liked Jesus, remember that friend.

People killed Christian’s back in the day, I don’t know if I would be one if I knew I was gonna lose my life but dying and picking up the cross is a loss of life, but new life by the spirit brought by Jesus. And thankful to him and his Father, Yahweh/Yahavah. Even if people do not believe he needs to be known. Even if they disagree. It’s just a subjective thing isn’t it?

Just as you choose to just say LORD that’s fine with me, and I haven’t caused you grief because of it.

 

[Bob Estey]

Haven’t you been doing that this whole time? Anyway, I believe faithfully as stated what’s in my heart concerning your question, Bob. You know not many people really liked Jesus, remember that friend. People killed Christian’s back in the day, I don’t know if I would be one if I knew I was gonna lose my life but dying and picking up the cross is a loss of life, but new life by the spirit brought by Jesus. And thankful to him and his Father, Yahweh/Yahavah. Even if people do not believe he needs to be known. Even if they disagree. It’s just a subjective thing isn’t it?

Yes, and I've treated with respect all along.

 

[MatthewG]

Yes, and I've treated with respect all along.

Okay. Thank you for your remarks and statements. No one said you have been disrespectful. It’s highly important for us to love fellow believers. Even if they have odd beliefs or subjective doings with their own heart, @Bob Estey. God/Yahweh/Yahavah most certainly knows those whom are his and they know they are his.

 

[Bob Estey]

Okay. Thank you for your remarks and statements. No one said you have been disrespectful.

There was a remark about nitpicking.

 

[MatthewG]

There was a remark about nitpicking.

People are very nickpicky like as a Christian you can’t say cuss words. “Supposedly.” As Christian you can’t worship the Father you must only worship the Son. As a member of this church you must pay tithes to get to heaven. Etc… @Bob Estey

 

[MatthewG]

I didn’t say you were are being nickpicky @Bob Estey. If you believe I said that to you as a personal remark, you have gotten into your feelings to much, in my opinion. You should really read what is being stated.

 

[Johann]

The worship of Jesus as a divine figure is a theme that emerges in early Christian writings, particularly in the New Testament, which reflects the beliefs of the early Christian communities. However, to locate this concept in ancient writings, it's essential to examine both scriptural texts and other early Christian literature. Here’s an overview of where this idea appears:

1. New Testament Writings
Gospels:
Matthew 2:11: The Magi worship the infant Jesus, bringing him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh. The Greek word used here is "προσκυνέω" (proskyneō), which often implies worship or reverence, especially in a religious context.

Matthew 14:33: After Jesus walks on water, the disciples worship him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”
Epistles:

Philippians 2:9-11: Paul writes that God exalted Jesus and gave him the name above every name, so that "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Hebrews 1:6: Referring to Jesus, it says, "And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, ‘Let all God's angels worship him.’" This passage explicitly describes angelic worship of Jesus, indicating his divine status.

Revelation:
Revelation 5:11-14: In a vision, John sees a scene where every creature in heaven and on earth worships both God the Father and the Lamb (a symbol for Jesus), proclaiming their worthiness to receive blessing, honor, glory, and power.

2. Early Christian Writings
Ignatius of Antioch (c. 35–107 AD): In his letters, Ignatius frequently emphasizes the divinity of Christ and the necessity of worshiping him. For example, in his Letter to the Ephesians (Chapter 7), Ignatius refers to Jesus Christ as "our God" and underscores his divine nature.
Justin Martyr (c. 100–165 AD): In his First Apology, Justin argues for the worship of Jesus as divine, noting that Christians worship Jesus as "the Word" and "the Son" of the true God. He contrasts this with the worship of idols in pagan religions, positioning Christian worship as the correct devotion.

Pliny the Younger (c. 61–113 AD): While not a Christian himself, Pliny's letter to Emperor Trajan mentions that Christians "sing hymns to Christ as to a god." This non-Christian source provides early evidence of the practice of worshiping Jesus in the Christian community.

3. Sub-Apostolic and Apostolic Fathers' Writings
The Didache (c. 50-120 AD): While not explicitly commanding the worship of Jesus, the Didache is an early Christian manual that reflects the liturgical and ethical practices of the early Christian community, which centered on Jesus’ teachings and included prayers in his name, indicating a form of reverence that borders on worship.

Polycarp (c. 69–155 AD): A disciple of the Apostle John, Polycarp in his Letter to the Philippians refers to Jesus as “the eternal High Priest” and implies his divine nature by the honor and reverence given to him.

4. Gnostic Texts and Other Non-Canonical Writings
Gospel of Thomas: While this Gnostic text does not explicitly promote the worship of Jesus in the same manner as the canonical gospels, it portrays Jesus as a divine figure imparting secret wisdom, indicating an elevated status for him within certain early Christian sects.
The Ascension of Isaiah (c. late 1st to early 2nd century AD): This non-canonical text describes a vision in which Isaiah sees the worship of Jesus (referred to as the Beloved) in the highest heavens, alongside God.


The worship of Jesus as a divine figure is well-attested in early Christian writings, especially within the New Testament and the writings of the Apostolic Fathers. These texts reflect the early Christian belief in Jesus’ divinity and the appropriateness of worshiping him, which would later be formalized in the doctrines of the Trinity and the Incarnation by the early Church.

Confusion abounds, with strange titles and appellations being added to the name of YHVH, and the inconsistent belief that some hold—that Jesus ought not to be worshipped at all—is a deviation from the truth as it is clearly written in the Scriptures.

Scriptural Evidence:

Isaiah 9:6: "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

John 1:1, 14: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

John 20:28: Thomas answered and said unto him, "My Lord and my God."

Philippians 2:9-11: "Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Hebrews 1:6: "And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, 'And let all the angels of God worship him.'"

Revelation 5:13-14: "And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, 'Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.' And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever."
These passages affirm the scriptural basis for worshipping Jesus, demonstrating that it is in alignment with the truth revealed in the Scriptures.

 

[MatthewG]

Idolatry is placing something in front of yourself you seek after which is not of God. It’s an idol that can not hear, not speak, not think. Idolatry falls in with faithlessness, seeking something other than the unseen Yahavah, the Father whom adopts us into Kingdom of his Son. I believe if Jesus honored his Father, we should Honor his Father, and also Honor the Son, in thankfulness and in his sons name.

I believe that’s why people pray to the Father and give amens in Jesus name. @Johann.

“always thanking the Father. He has enabled you to share in the inheritance that belongs to his people, who live in the light. For he has rescued us from the kingdom of darkness and transferred us into the Kingdom of his dear Son, who purchased our freedom and forgave our sins.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1‬:‭12‬-‭14‬ ‭NLT‬‬

 

[Johann]

Idolatry is placing something in front of yourself you seek after which is not of God. It’s an idol that can not hear, not speak, not think. Idolatry falls in with faithlessness, seeking something other than the unseen Yahavah, the Father whom adopts us into Kingdom of his Son. I believe if Jesus honored his Father, we should Honor his Father, and also Honor the Son, in thankfulness and in his sons name.

I believe that’s why people pray to the Father and give amens in Jesus name. @Johann.

“always thanking the Father. He has enabled you to share in the inheritance that belongs to his people, who live in the light. For he has rescued us from the kingdom of darkness and transferred us into the Kingdom of his dear Son, who purchased our freedom and forgave our sins.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1‬:‭12‬-‭14‬ ‭NLT‬‬

There are several passages in the New Testament where believers direct their prayers or petitions to Jesus, acknowledging His divine authority and role as intercessor:

Acts 7:59-60 - During the stoning of Stephen, he prays directly to Jesus: "While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, ‘Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.’ Then he fell on his knees and cried out, ‘Lord, do not hold this sin against them.’ When he had said this, he fell asleep."

1 Corinthians 1:2 - Paul addresses the believers in Corinth as those who "call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ." This phrase implies that early Christians were praying to Jesus: "To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours."

2 Corinthians 12:8-9 - Paul pleads with the Lord Jesus to remove his "thorn in the flesh": "Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, ‘My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.’"

John 14:13-14 - Jesus Himself invites His disciples to ask Him directly: "And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."

Revelation 22:20 - The book of Revelation ends with a prayer directed to Jesus: "He who testifies to these things says, ‘Yes, I am coming soon.’ Amen. Come, Lord Jesus."

These passages show that praying to Jesus is consistent with His divine nature and His role as our mediator and Lord.

Hopefully we can agree on this since it comes from Scripture @MatthewG and the problem as I see it, is our biases and OUR interpretation on the text to fit our narrative-not being facetious with you.

 

[amigo de christo]

The worship of Jesus as a divine figure is a theme that emerges in early Christian writings, particularly in the New Testament, which reflects the beliefs of the early Christian communities. However, to locate this concept in ancient writings, it's essential to examine both scriptural texts and other early Christian literature. Here’s an overview of where this idea appears:

1. New Testament Writings
Gospels:
Matthew 2:11: The Magi worship the infant Jesus, bringing him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh. The Greek word used here is "προσκυνέω" (proskyneō), which often implies worship or reverence, especially in a religious context.

Matthew 14:33: After Jesus walks on water, the disciples worship him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”
Epistles:

Philippians 2:9-11: Paul writes that God exalted Jesus and gave him the name above every name, so that "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Hebrews 1:6: Referring to Jesus, it says, "And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, ‘Let all God's angels worship him.’" This passage explicitly describes angelic worship of Jesus, indicating his divine status.

Revelation:
Revelation 5:11-14: In a vision, John sees a scene where every creature in heaven and on earth worships both God the Father and the Lamb (a symbol for Jesus), proclaiming their worthiness to receive blessing, honor, glory, and power.

2. Early Christian Writings
Ignatius of Antioch (c. 35–107 AD): In his letters, Ignatius frequently emphasizes the divinity of Christ and the necessity of worshiping him. For example, in his Letter to the Ephesians (Chapter 7), Ignatius refers to Jesus Christ as "our God" and underscores his divine nature.
Justin Martyr (c. 100–165 AD): In his First Apology, Justin argues for the worship of Jesus as divine, noting that Christians worship Jesus as "the Word" and "the Son" of the true God. He contrasts this with the worship of idols in pagan religions, positioning Christian worship as the correct devotion.

Pliny the Younger (c. 61–113 AD): While not a Christian himself, Pliny's letter to Emperor Trajan mentions that Christians "sing hymns to Christ as to a god." This non-Christian source provides early evidence of the practice of worshiping Jesus in the Christian community.

3. Sub-Apostolic and Apostolic Fathers' Writings
The Didache (c. 50-120 AD): While not explicitly commanding the worship of Jesus, the Didache is an early Christian manual that reflects the liturgical and ethical practices of the early Christian community, which centered on Jesus’ teachings and included prayers in his name, indicating a form of reverence that borders on worship.

Polycarp (c. 69–155 AD): A disciple of the Apostle John, Polycarp in his Letter to the Philippians refers to Jesus as “the eternal High Priest” and implies his divine nature by the honor and reverence given to him.

4. Gnostic Texts and Other Non-Canonical Writings
Gospel of Thomas: While this Gnostic text does not explicitly promote the worship of Jesus in the same manner as the canonical gospels, it portrays Jesus as a divine figure imparting secret wisdom, indicating an elevated status for him within certain early Christian sects.
The Ascension of Isaiah (c. late 1st to early 2nd century AD): This non-canonical text describes a vision in which Isaiah sees the worship of Jesus (referred to as the Beloved) in the highest heavens, alongside God.


The worship of Jesus as a divine figure is well-attested in early Christian writings, especially within the New Testament and the writings of the Apostolic Fathers. These texts reflect the early Christian belief in Jesus’ divinity and the appropriateness of worshiping him, which would later be formalized in the doctrines of the Trinity and the Incarnation by the early Church.

Confusion abounds, with strange titles and appellations being added to the name of YHVH, and the inconsistent belief that some hold—that Jesus ought not to be worshipped at all—is a deviation from the truth as it is clearly written in the Scriptures.

Scriptural Evidence:

Isaiah 9:6: "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

John 1:1, 14: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

John 20:28: Thomas answered and said unto him, "My Lord and my God."

Philippians 2:9-11: "Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Hebrews 1:6: "And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, 'And let all the angels of God worship him.'"

Revelation 5:13-14: "And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, 'Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.' And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever."
These passages affirm the scriptural basis for worshipping Jesus, demonstrating that it is in alignment with the truth revealed in the Scriptures.

The gospel of thomas is bad news .
Most want to debate the perfection pronouncment of His name .
You know what scares me most for many , Most dont even keep or heed his words
but by golly they can come on with a YAHAVA or something else .
Not saying you my friend . But most folks dont even know the TRUE JESUS CHRIST
and yet they sure know some pronouncements .
Johann , THIS people is on a serious deadly bad and dangerous path .
You are talking to folks that are full grown incluisivits , unversalists , to many that preach , that whole heartedly
beleive in another gospel . THEY WONT MAKE IT johann . THEY WONT make it on that path .
I just wanted to remind us all of this day .
WHEN all stand before JESUS , and all will , as either a sheep or a goat
Goats will not like what they hear on that day .
And a goat preaches another gospel and gives another hope out to the world . We better bible up .
Cause i got real bad news , You in the presence of an inclusivian , AND IT AINT ME parnder .
We gots to get this people back to the basics again and very fast too .

 

[Johann]

The gospel of thomas is bad news .
Most want to debate the perfection pronouncment of His name .
You know what scares me most for many , Most dont even keep or heed his words
but by golly they can come on with a YAHAVA or something else .
Not saying you my friend . But most folks dont even know the TRUE JESUS CHRIST
and yet they sure know some pronouncements .
Johann , THIS people is on a serious deadly bad and dangerous path .
You are talking to folks that are full grown incluisivits , unversalists , to many that preach , that whole heartedly
beleive in another gospel . THEY WONT MAKE IT johann . THEY WONT make it on that path .
I just wanted to remind us all of this day .
WHEN all stand before JESUS , and all will , as either a sheep or a goat
Goats will not like what they hear on that day .
And a goat preaches another gospel and gives another hope out to the world . We better bible up .
Cause i got real bad news , You in the presence of an inclusivian , AND IT AINT ME parnder .
We gots to get this people back to the basics again and very fast too .

Correct you are brother--politics is more important than the Bible-and of course the "gospel of Thomas is bad news" friend and there are a myriad of diverse interpretations on a single verse, let alone the doctrines as penned by our brother Paul.
I concur with your post partner and correct-back to the Scriptures, TV off and up with the sleeves and down with the ease.


Act 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Act 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.
Act 17:13 But when the Jews of Thessalonica had knowledge that the word of God was preached of Paul at Berea, they came thither also, and stirred up the people.

That's what is happening, always a stirring up when our warfare is not against flesh and blood!

 

[Wrangler]

Isn’t idolatry where you place your focus on an item in which you devote yourself to in place of Yahavah who is Spirit and is God above all other gods?

An item suggests a material thing. An IDOL is anything manmade, including fame, fortune and conquest (of woman, business, nations).

 

[MatthewG]

There are several passages in the New Testament where believers direct their prayers or petitions to Jesus, acknowledging His divine authority and role as intercessor:

Acts 7:59-60 - During the stoning of Stephen, he prays directly to Jesus: "While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, ‘Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.’ Then he fell on his knees and cried out, ‘Lord, do not hold this sin against them.’ When he had said this, he fell asleep."

1 Corinthians 1:2 - Paul addresses the believers in Corinth as those who "call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ." This phrase implies that early Christians were praying to Jesus: "To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours."

2 Corinthians 12:8-9 - Paul pleads with the Lord Jesus to remove his "thorn in the flesh": "Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, ‘My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.’"

John 14:13-14 - Jesus Himself invites His disciples to ask Him directly: "And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."

Revelation 22:20 - The book of Revelation ends with a prayer directed to Jesus: "He who testifies to these things says, ‘Yes, I am coming soon.’ Amen. Come, Lord Jesus."

These passages show that praying to Jesus is consistent with His divine nature and His role as our mediator and Lord.

Hopefully we can agree on this since it comes from Scripture @MatthewG and the problem as I see it, is our biases and OUR interpretation on the text to fit our narrative-not being facetious with you.

Did you not read what I said, @Johann.

People pray to the Father typically ending in the name of Jesus. I don’t see the hiccup. Other than people, trying to make it seem like Jesus never had made his Fathers name known… continue to ignore what’s been said by Yahavah, and therefore people believe that the Father is not to be worshipped all together even… therefore you know, if you believe this or accept this or not; is up to you.

You can quote the scripture all you would like, but I believe even that Jesus has came back already, faithfully.

 

[MatthewG]

An item suggests a material thing. An IDOL is anything manmade, including fame, fortune and conquest (of woman, business, nations).

People can also be idolized. Many great speakers and advocates for certain things are idolized by people even today. “I wish I could be just like him” jealousy has to be in that situation some what too.

 

[Johann]

Did you not read what I said, @Johann.

People pray to the Father typically ending in the name of Jesus. I don’t see the hiccup. Other than people, trying to make it seem like Jesus never had made his Fathers name known… continue to ignore what’s been said by Yahavah, and therefore people believe that the Father is not to be worshipped all together even… therefore you know, if you believe this or accept this or not; is up to you.

What is "up to me" is what sayeth the Scriptures-sometimes the truth stares us in the panim/פָּנִים and still don't get it.

 

[Marvelloustime]

The gospel of thomas is bad news .
Most want to debate the perfection pronouncment of His name .
You know what scares me most for many , Most dont even keep or heed his words
but by golly they can come on with a YAHAVA or something else .
Not saying you my friend . But most folks dont even know the TRUE JESUS CHRIST
and yet they sure know some pronouncements .
Johann , THIS people is on a serious deadly bad and dangerous path .
You are talking to folks that are full grown incluisivits , unversalists , to many that preach , that whole heartedly
beleive in another gospel . THEY WONT MAKE IT johann . THEY WONT make it on that path .
I just wanted to remind us all of this day .
WHEN all stand before JESUS , and all will , as either a sheep or a goat
Goats will not like what they hear on that day .
And a goat preaches another gospel and gives another hope out to the world . We better bible up .
Cause i got real bad news , You in the presence of an inclusivian , AND IT AINT ME parnder .
We gots to get this people back to the basics again and very fast too .

 

[MatthewG]

What is "up to me" is what sayeth the Scriptures-sometimes the truth stares us in the panim/פָּנִים and still don't get it.

It’s okay. The spirit is what I stand on. Not just the scriptures. You can continue to do as you desire though… I’ve stated plainly what’s on my heart, if it doesn’t add up to what scripture shared concerning what Yahavahs desires and what Yeshua did, for his Fathers name to be made know. You are more than welcome to just, ignore me if you would rather.. And my reasonings and thoughts and opinions. I thank you for sharing but it’s not really adding to the discussion… in concerning did God deem his name important to be made known?

 

[Johann]

It’s okay. The spirit is what I stand on. Not just the scriptures.

You one of those that have spiritual experiences contrary to what stands written?

 

[MatthewG]

You one of those that have spiritual experiences contrary to what stands written?

Sir, I just believe that faithful believers who seek Yahavah in spirit and in truth as Yeshua suggested, are free and are liberated by the spirit. I don’t know what you may think this means but for me I do believe I have the Holy Spirit and the spirit of Christ within my heart given by Yahavah… and they help me in my life, when asking the Father to help us by the Holy Spirit as Yeshua suggested believers are able to do so.

You may decide what you need to do, but trust me in saying that the Spirit is needed to even understand the Bible you continue to quote.