The Wrath of God - How is it love?

[St. SteVen]

I am not a native English speaker, how do we have to understand the word wrath ?

1. Anger
2. Furious anger
3. Rage

That's the question.
I question the use of the word wrath, or the intention of God toward us.

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[ProDeo]

That's the question.
I question the use of the word wrath, or the intention of God toward us.

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Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

Wrath inside the Godhead is a total different subject and hard to believe.

PSA is not in the NT, as far as I know not in the early church, it came as something new during the Reformation.

 

[bdavidc]

Assuming you are a Trinity believer, did God punish Himself ?

For what?

For giving His creatures free will ?

According to Scripture, God did not punish Himself for giving us free will. He punished sin. Jesus Christ, who is God in the flesh (John 1:1, 14), took our punishment voluntarily. Isaiah 53:5 says, “But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities,” and verse 10 says, “It pleased the LORD to bruise him,” meaning the suffering of Christ was God’s plan to deal with sin, not a response to regret over free will. God gave humanity the ability to choose, but it was man who chose to sin. Romans 5:12 says, “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin,” so the consequence came because of man’s rebellion, not God's design. God is holy and just, and He must punish sin (Romans 6:23), but in His love, He provided the only solution, Jesus, who took our place. This was not God punishing Himself out of guilt, it was God providing a perfect, willing sacrifice so we could be saved (2 Corinthians 5:21).

 

[Dash RipRock]

But to others it is troubling, noting that the character of God does not allow for such a contradiction.

There is no contradiction unless one believes God is a liar so only those deceived by the devil thinks it's a contradiction

Romans 11:21 - For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

God cannot allow darkness in to His presence as His righteous glory would burn it up immediately.

He is light, in Him is no darkness at all because light dispels darkness.

Those walking after the flesh are corrupt and cannot come in to His presence

Only those abiding in Christ having turned from their sin being washed in the Blood can get in.

Wrath inside the Godhead is a total different subject and hard to believe.

No, not hard to believe at all for those that believe all the Lord says in His Word which takes childlike faith.

Be followers of God as dear children - What God says in His Word, God said it, that settles it.

 

[bdavidc]

Who are you to declare what God meant?

According to Scripture, no one has the authority to speak from personal opinion when it comes to God's truth, but every believer is called to declare what God has already spoken through His Word. 2 Timothy 3:16–17 says, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” I am not claiming personal authority, I am simply standing on what God has revealed. The Bible interprets itself and commands us to “earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints” (Jude 1:3). The Bereans were commended for testing every teaching against the Scriptures (Acts 17:11), and all believers are told to “rightly divide the word of truth” (2 Timothy 2:15). So I am not declaring what I think, I am declaring what God has said. If there is disagreement, it is not with me, it is with the written Word of God.

Since you’ve taken it upon yourself to speak as though you are God and invent your own gospel of St. SteVen, I’ll leave you to answer to the Judge whose Word you’ve replaced. Galatians 1:8 warns, “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.”

 

[Dash RipRock]

According to Scripture

Nailed it, thank you!

 

[St. SteVen]

So I am not declaring what I think, I am declaring what God has said. If there is disagreement, it is not with me, it is with the written Word of God.

LOL
You have a right to your own opinion.
I see you have played the "God card" in the hope of ending the discussion.
Fine by me.

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[ProDeo]

According to Scripture, God did not punish Himself for giving us free will. He punished sin. Jesus Christ, who is God in the flesh (John 1:1, 14), took our punishment voluntarily. Isaiah 53:5 says, “But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities,” and verse 10 says, “It pleased the LORD to bruise him,” meaning the suffering of Christ was God’s plan to deal with sin, not a response to regret over free will. God gave humanity the ability to choose, but it was man who chose to sin. Romans 5:12 says, “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin,” so the consequence came because of man’s rebellion, not God's design. God is holy and just, and He must punish sin (Romans 6:23), but in His love, He provided the only solution, Jesus, who took our place. This was not God punishing Himself out of guilt, it was God providing a perfect, willing sacrifice so we could be saved (2 Corinthians 5:21).

Who crucified Christ?

Isn't wasn't God.

Get that?

Keep that in mind.

Who is Jesus?
. God the Son.
. God the Father together with God the Son created the world --Col 1:6
. Before God created A&E The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. --Rev 13:8 was already decided.
. Why is that you think?
. Because He foreknew that free will sooner or later would lead to sin.
. Without free will (robots) there can be no sin, but would produce fake love.
. God created creatures able to return true love, not forced (fake) but by free will.
. God foreknew that A&E would fall, and God before creating the world it was decided how to deal with sin, the Lamb slain.
. God the Son willing to do the will of the Father, saving His fallen creation, because He loved us after all -- John 3:16
. Can you feel the love brother?

We know what happened,
. God the Son descended from heaven -- John 3:13
. God the Son became flesh -- John 1:14
. God the Son as co Creator (Col 1:6) came to His creatures and His creatures notable murdered their own Creator. Imagine the crime.
. As it was agreed between God the Father and God the son, before creation, the Lamb slain.
. And instead of wiping us out, that terrible crime became the base of our reconciliation.
. And what did Jesus say? -- Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.
. Can you feel the love brother?

The Cross,
. As said earlier, God the Father did not crucified nor tortured Jesus, that were his creatures.
. God foreknew everything on beforehand and let it happen to show His love sacrificing a part of Himself.
. Can you feel His pain?
. Can you feel the love brother?

The Death of Jesus,
Matt 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour.
Matt 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

. Can we really understand what happened in those final 3 hours (in total darkness) between God the Father and God the Son?

. When Jesus cried - My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? (He was quoting Psalm 22) did Jesus felt forsaken (imaginable) or did the Father temporarily took away His divinity and that Jesus suffered death as a 100% man, made sin who knew no sin --2 Cor 5:21

. I am not sure what the answer is.

The role of satan,
. The devil, another free will creature fallen from grace.

. Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.

. Another part of Jesus mission was to defeat the devil - The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. --1Joh 3:8, note that John said The reason. After all the trouble in Paradise started with the devil, his lies and half truths.

. Speculating (emphasis added), considering he accuses God day and night in the presence of all the heavenly creatures, he might have accused God when he heard about his future (the LOF) that God was unloving, unforgiving, unjust and what more accusations he excels in.

. And the answer again is the Lamb slain, the love showed by God the Father and God the Son is a testimony that all the accusations of the devil are lies and that he fully deserves his place in the LOF for all the damage he has caused. It's not only a testimony for us but also for all the heavenly creatures who heard all the accusations, just in case he created some doubt.

You are freely to believe God the Father in rage, fury and wrath poured His anger on His son (I don't believe that) but keep in mind the whole story, it's His shed blood (by mankind, not by God) that washes away our sins, because He was made sin who knew no sin.

 

[christsavedme]

Your entire argument collapses when you look at the actual context of Scripture and the consistent use of the word aionios (αἰώνιος) across the New Testament. You’re attempting to redefine a biblical word to fit your theology rather than letting the Bible speak for itself. Aionios does not simply mean “age-based” or “temporary,” its meaning depends entirely on the context, and in Matthew 25:46, the context makes it absolutely clear. The verse says, “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.” The Greek word aionios is used in both phrases. If aionios means “temporary,” then the life believers receive is also temporary. That is absurd and completely unbiblical. The parallel use proves that both the punishment of the wicked and the life of the righteous are equally unending.

The New Testament writers, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, used aionios to refer to things that are clearly eternal, such as aionios zoe (eternal life, John 3:16), aionios God (Romans 16:26), and aionios redemption (Hebrews 9:12). These are not temporary qualities, and they are never presented as limited in duration. In Titus 1:2, Paul writes of the “hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began.” If aionios is not truly eternal, then God is promising something temporary as our hope, that is a lie, and that is blasphemy.

Yes, the root word aion (αἰών) can sometimes mean “age” or “era,” but aionios is the adjective form and often refers to that which pertains to the age to come, which is unending. In texts speaking of judgment and life after death, it consistently means eternal. Hebrews 6:2 speaks of “eternal judgment” (kriseōs aiōniou). Are you suggesting God's judgment fades away over time? Revelation 14:11 says, “The smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever, and they have no rest day nor night.” That is not aionios, that is explicit eternal torment with no relief.

You are twisting Scripture instead of reading it the way God actually meant it. You’re grasping at word games to avoid the plain truth, eternal punishment is real, because sin against an eternal God carries eternal consequences. God's Word says what it means, and no amount of linguistic manipulation will erase the fact that aionios punishment is just as eternal as aionios life. You don’t get to change the meaning to make it easier to accept. Let God be true, but every man a liar (Romans 3:4).

You really laid out a strong case about the meaning of *aionios* in Scripture! I appreciate how you’re digging into the Greek to make your point. The way you connect the parallel use of *aionios* in Matthew 25:46—showing that eternal punishment and eternal life must both be unending—makes a lot of sense. It’s hard to argue with that logic when the same word is used for both.

I hear you on how *aionios* is tied to things like eternal life, God’s nature, and redemption in other verses, which clearly point to forever. Your point about Revelation’s “forever and ever” language also adds weight to the idea that the Bible describes a lasting consequence for sin, not something temporary. It seems like you’re saying we need to let the Bible’s context guide us instead of bending words to fit what’s easier to accept.

I’m curious, though—do you think there’s any room for different views on *aionios* when it’s tied to punishment, like maybe annihilationism, where the wicked cease to exist instead of suffering forever?

 

[Lambano]

That's the question.
I question the use of the word wrath, or the intention of God toward us.

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Is it because the word implies being out of control with anger?

I can’t see God being out of control.

 

[St. SteVen]

Is it because the word implies being out of control with anger?

I can’t see God being out of control.

Agree.
I picture an unbridled rage. An absolute fury of retaliation.
Nothing holy about it.

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[Lambano]

Should we be surprised that certain things p!$$ God off?

 

[Lambano]

Agree.
I picture an unbridled rage. An absolute fury of retaliation.
Nothing holy about it.

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Isn’t that our anthropomorphism of what’s really going on in God’s heart when people get punished?

The reality, though, is that the biblical record does show that people do get punished.

 

[Lambano]

Should we be surprised that certain things p!$$ God off?

If God is good, shouldn’t He get p!$$ed off at cruelty, treachery, the exploitation of the weak by the powerful, deceitfulness, greed, cold-heartedness, arrogance…

 

[St. SteVen]

Should we be surprised that certain things p!$$ God off?

I see God as being more mature and in control than that.

I could squash an ant that raises his fist to me. But what's the point?

Isn’t that our anthropomorphism of what’s really going on in God’s heart when people get punished?

The reality, though, is that the biblical record does show that people do get punished.

We are created in His image. Probably more reflective than we realize.

Yes. What do we do with those passages?
Like Noah's flood. No one likes to admit it was global genocide. If it actually happened.
And the narrative makes it look as though the omniscient God didn't see it coming and had regrets.
Worse than that, He thought the best solution was to murder everyone but Noah's family.

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[St. SteVen]

If God is good, shouldn’t He get p!$$ed off at cruelty, treachery, the exploitation of the weak by the powerful, deceitfulness, greed, cold-heartedness, arrogance…

So, instead of acting on His anger He sits and stews about it?

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[Lambano]

But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.)

May it never be! If that were so, how could God judge the world? (Romans 3:5-6)

 

[bdavidc]

You are freely to believe God the Father in rage, fury and wrath poured His anger on His son (I don't believe that) but keep in mind the whole story, it's His shed blood (by mankind, not by God) that washes away our sins, because He was made sin who knew no sin.

You may not want to believe that God poured out His wrath on His Son, but that is exactly what happened, because that’s what our sin demanded. Isaiah 53:10 says, “Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him, he hath put him to grief,” and Isaiah 53:6 declares, “The Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.” This wasn’t just human violence, it was divine judgment. Jesus wasn’t merely a victim of man’s cruelty, He was the sin-bearing substitute under the judgment of God. 2 Corinthians 5:21 says, “He hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” Galatians 3:13 says, “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us.” Whose curse? God’s. The wrath that we deserved was poured out on Jesus so that we could be forgiven. Romans 3:25 says Jesus was set forth to be “a propitiation through faith in his blood,” which means a wrath-satisfying sacrifice. If God did not pour out His righteous anger on sin at the cross, then there is no justice and no Gospel. Jesus said in John 18:11, “The cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?” That “cup” was the cup of God's wrath (Psalm 75:8, Revelation 14:10). You can reject that truth if you want, but it’s not faithful to Scripture. The full story is not just that Jesus bled, it’s that He endured the judgment we deserve, and only by that wrath being satisfied can we be reconciled to God.

 

[Lambano]

And the narrative makes it look as though the omniscient God didn't see it coming and had regrets.

Good fodder for the Open Theists. Had one on another forum; haven’t seen any here.

 

[bdavidc]

I’m curious, though—do you think there’s any room for different views on *aionios* when it’s tied to punishment, like maybe annihilationism, where the wicked cease to exist instead of suffering forever?

According to Scripture, there is no room for redefining aionios (αἰώνιος) when it is tied to punishment. The Bible uses that same Greek word to describe both eternal life and eternal punishment, making it clear that both are equally unending in duration. In Matthew 25:46, Jesus says, “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.” The word aionios is used for both “punishment” and “life” in the same sentence. If the punishment is temporary, then so is the life, which is absurd. Revelation 14:11 says, “And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever, and they have no rest day nor night.” That is not symbolic language for ceasing to exist; that is unending conscious judgment. Revelation 20:10 also speaks of the devil, the beast, and the false prophet being “tormented day and night forever and ever.” If God’s Word wanted to teach annihilationism, it would say so plainly. Instead, it repeatedly affirms that hell is a place of unquenchable fire (Mark 9:43, 48), outer darkness, and weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 8:12, 22:13, 25:30). The Bible does not describe the wicked as being snuffed out but as being judged with everlasting destruction “from the presence of the Lord” (2 Thessalonians 1:9), meaning they are separated from God’s mercy forever, not extinguished. Any teaching that softens this reality is not coming from Scripture but from human discomfort with what God has clearly said.