The rubber meets the road . @JustMe
God the Father is not in your sight .
Would you worship Jesus if He was standing before you and you had no doubt it was Him ?
You don’t know; we Jews know
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God the Father is not in your sight .
Would you worship Jesus if He was standing before you and you had no doubt it was Him ?
I'm responding to scripture and its interpretation on these two verses at this point. And I thought I clearly did this.
What do you mean that the Father, who is God, is not in my sight? I thought I wrote the opposite in my post.
And scripture clearly distinguishes true adoration and worship for the Father only, as opposed to honor and only limited in worship for the Son, upon the Father's request.
So yes, I would give honor and respect as in bended knee to my friend Jesus and lord. Although this is not the same kind of worship as for the Father; and Jesus would also agree. I would and do give my adoration and worship to God as Jesus would and does today.
You do remember that Jesus said his father was his God, the same as our God, more than a few times in scripture right?
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Jesus is Yaweh/Jehovah. The pre-incarnate Jesus spoke to Moses on Exodus. 3:14. "I AM WHO I AM" and instructs Moses to tell the Israelites, "I AM has sent me to you".
That was a brief introduction to God. A beginning of a relationship that would grow and in time, God would fully reveal Himself to them face to face.
"I AM" certainly leaves out much. Descriptions and undestanding would take thousands of years and still we see blurry.
Later God would expound and enlighten them throughout His plan for His chosen nation but then more fully when He emptied Himself into a human vessel, Jesus, and revealed Himself.
I AM the Way, the Truth and the Life.
I AM the Good Shepherd
I AM the Bread of Life
I AM the Door
I AM the VINE
I AM the Resurrection and the Life.
I AM the Alpha and Omega
I AM HE (the one who has been there for you all along)
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!" Matt. 23:37
In John 4:22 Jesus was speaking as a Jew, and since the truth was first revealed to the chosen nation, that was his point.
But now He announces a change, a Revelation to be shared with the Gentiles at that very moment:
But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. (vs. 23)
Did He not share the Spirit and truth with thay Samaritan? Yes He did, her spirit soared. He broke ground with the Gentiles and planted a seed and opened up a new territory for the Gospel to soon be spread throughout the world. That was certainly "good news" given and she and the world would soon learn how to worship the true God in Spirit and truth.
Jesus is the truth. What does thabreally mean? Truth can be translated as reality, what us real.
Jesus is the life! That is deep. What life? The source of all life, physical and spiritual.
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Col. 1:16-17
"In Him all things consist" (held together by His power). That means down the atomic structure and outwards to the entire universe and including the spiritual realm. Jesus is The Creator!
“Jesus wasn’t, and isn’t, Yahweh.“ - Ben Witherington
Dr. Witherington, a trinitarian, makes this concession due to the constraints of history.
He’s right.
Jesus himself is a Jewish monotheist, not a trinitarian.
Every passage of scripture you quoted can be understood through the lens of Jewish monotheism.
If you want to be a trinitarian then be a trinitarian.
I want to be, and I am, theologically like Jesus.
This was a very unique, and life-changing moment in my life, friend. I'm so glad you asked about it.
Well, I was overwhelmed and convinced by a friend to hear about the gospel of the Kingdom of God, one wintery day. I hesitantly complied.
This friend left me full of new life and new energy, new hope, because of my newly founded lord and saviour. I was truly thankful that my living God, and his Spirit came to live with me, along with the spirit of his Son - in my former lonesome and selfish sinful life.
I was overwhelmed, overtaken in that small humble room: physically, emotionally and spiritually - it was a life changer. I felt there was definitely something different that possessed me, a new presence for sure. I suddenly acquired a new taste for the Bible, I began to read it, truly for the first time, with purpose and for understanding. I became convicted of some of my bad habits, immediately, and ceased them in short order. Others took many years to overcome.
So I went down on my knees, and just listening all the while, as I opened my heart to God as I already sensed his presence in that room. It was very humbling and I exposed myself to God for the first time, and revealed my heart, my fragility and my worthlessness in his presence. He broke me, the tough guy I thought I was...
I confessed to my God, truly, my shortcoming and sins that suddenly outraged me and I felt real shame and conviction. I trusted my personal messenger, my friend, who shared the words of God with me. I trusted the words he spoke from the Bible. As if God was now guiding my heart in this entire miraculous experience.
I heard, into my heart, the hope and promise of salvation because of the work of God's son, and his love for me. I was in heaven in my mind, and I never wanted to leave this experience.
I believed in his Son and had faith in what he told me he would do for me in the future, written in scripture. My heart was truly broken down now, reshaped and being healed. I really felt this heart surgery going on within me if you can imagine that...I somehow became different and at the same time special, a special and chosen person for my loving God.
You see I knew of God and his Son as I thought most did the same way in growing up. I would sometimes imagine how this life and this world looked like before God created it. I kept it at that level as I continued to live my own; a life fighting the woes in this world, and some people I had issues with from time to time. I was a survivalist of sorts and fended for myself, being kind of street smart, still being civil and well mannered, with the ones I was taught by my parents and school...might be showing my age a bit here.
So, this entry into the Kingdom of God and the way it happened is beyond mere words....I still get goosebumps and a few small tears today, chills all over my body, head to toe, even and as I write these words now to you.
It has been humbling and a very happy moment for me to express this truly unique conversion experience with you, to be one of the chosen. I thank you talons for asking me for my testimony. Bless you for it friend
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Thanks for sharing !
Who's presence did you sense in the room , Jesus or the Father ? And tell me how you could discern this as I have not ever discerned a difference that I could say that it was the Father's or the Son's presence I was in .
shepherdsword
Well-Known Member
That’s right.
Jesus, I have suggested, is the Jew for the job.
Only one person is his God and my God -> the Father.
Jesus is the one who defined who his God and the God of his disciples is.
Trinitarianism is a non-Jewish interpretation of scripture which was written by Jews. It produced a different understanding, a non-Jewish understanding, of who the one God is.
I’m not persuaded by it. Those who are persuaded by it should be trinitarian.
Whatever anyone decides is persuasive, Jesus himself remains a Jewish monotheist. And that is what I find most persuasive in matters of theology.
This is an important point that you’re making. That is exactly what happened in the post-biblical history of the church. The trinitarian scholar A.E. Harvey succinctly pointed this out for his readers:
”In later times the church, no longer perceiving the power and decisiveness of the agent-son-representative model, and having among its members men used to a more philosophical analysis, felt it necessary to go further in the direction of metaphysical identity between Jesus and his heavenly Father: released from Jewish monotheism, gentile Christians began to think of Jesus as also, in some sense God.”
(Jesus and the Constraints of History, p. 173)
The Jewish monotheism of Jesus, the apostles and the earliest Christians was gradually replaced by the church. Jewish monotheism is undeveloped primitive Christianity. Trinitarianism is developed Christianity.
I’m fully persuaded by the initial agent-son-representative model of the church. I’m not at all persuaded by the later metaphysical model adopted by the church.
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A blackboard inscription from a church history professor:
“There are no Nicene Christians to be found in the Old Testament or in the New Testament.“
That there were none to be found in the Old Testament didn’t shock or surprise any of his students. That there were none to be found in the New Testament caused a stir among some of his students.
Imparting a knowledge and appreciation for the constraints of history benefitted every one of his students.
Let the wise reader consider this.
“There are no Nicene Christians to be found in the Old Testament or in the New Testament.“
That there were none to be found in the Old Testament didn’t shock or surprise any of his students. That there were none to be found in the New Testament caused a stir among some of his students.
Imparting a knowledge and appreciation for the constraints of history benefitted every one of his students.
Let the wise reader consider this.
As late as AD 380 there were many among the Nicene Christians who didn’t believe in the Trinity. This is documented by Philip Schaff in his eight-volume work, History of the Christian Church.
Does the average trinitarian know this? No.
Shouldn’t the average trinitarian know this? I think they should. I’ve been publicly calling for it to be taught in all churches (and privately in homes) for decades.
Does the average trinitarian know this? No.
Shouldn’t the average trinitarian know this? I think they should. I’ve been publicly calling for it to be taught in all churches (and privately in homes) for decades.
You make my point. God is not a philosophy. You know NOTHING about the trinity. I am not a trinitarian, I am a Christian. The Son, the Father, and the Holy Spirit "IS" ONE (1) GOD. Nothing about God is a "what", you fool. God created His own image and that image can be judged. Paul says, Nothing in and of itself is sin. What's don't sin, its the who's that sin. God created what's, but not to be worshiped, not even angels. I don't want to know what you worship.
Whether or not you want to know what I worship, you do. Whether or not you want to know what the trinitarians worship, you do.
I’m content with that. Among other things, I’m an educator.
I was looking for consistency from you. You delivered it.
Well, it was easy for me to sense the overwhelming presence of one Spirit, the Holy Spirit of the Father. Being there, you just know it. He was also, through his same one Spirit, that later I pondered about, as you are inquiring here, came to realize his Spirit was the same one who drafted me, (pun intended for, chosen and being followed/shadowed.....
) led me to my conversion for him, and his desire. I do believe he drew me to him over time and for his Son, for the Kingdom.I noticed his presence that day of conversion. I also knew it was his Spirit projecting itself/himself over me at that time and not his Son that I can remember.
Very soon afterwards however, as I learned more of God and his word, and began to take my first steps in faith for my new life, only then did I frequently acknowledge the presence of God's Son's spirit within as well, and thus his/my father's presence in the process. This spirit(s) process of communications and their state and presence, at conversion or in everyday life, is a real bear to pin down for any human being.
There was no other way to understand it. I was now infected with Christ and his Father. It became real to me. It was a progressive growth in my heart and mind, given to me by the one and only Father.
Jesus' spirit or seed was planted within me by the Father, that grew over time, if you will. By acknowledging the presence of Jesus or say Yeshua, more and more, I grew more a part of him, his spirit. And all the while I sensed the presence of the Father (his own Spirit) there directing traffic as usual, always through his Son's spirit within me.
Today, the Father and the spirit of Christ speak to me more than in my earlier years. And I cannot be sure if the Father alone or Jesus or one of his messengers (angels or other chosen people) speak to me for God, our Father. They seem to be very much together, performing as one cohesive collection of spirits for the purpose of God,
And the thing is, that the Spirit of truth, yes, given even today, and there are many more spirits given as gifts or even curses, on the disciplined, and of the Son, are all derived from the Spirit of God, the Father.
I generally pray to the Father as my focus, as my personal father, although I collectively bring Jesus, my brother and friend into the picture, as one of the family. I believe God the Father still dominates and will always dominate my affairs with his Son in the Kingdom realm today and tomorrow. Amen.
I also believe that God's angels, although given to his Son today for a purpose(s) he desires today, were present at my conversion and definitely today in my personal affairs. When I was younger, and I cannot disprove it, or discard that moment, I saw an angel of God at my sick bedside, and I soon recovered from my ailment.
This query of your is definitely a deeper dive and probe into the realm of the spirits involved with God, his nature, and how he works in my life and others. And I have only scratched the surface of my experiences on this subject.
Thanks again for your post.
You are a bigger fool than I thought. In the new testiment, Paul, a Jew, uses the word God over 600 times in his writings never suggesting it is "WHAT" he worships. The word Yahweh is not found in the New Testament Epistles. Maybe you should blame God for not allowing you to be an Apostle in the first century to straighten out what the Holy Spirit missed. You lust for recognition, and it shows.
Yahweh is the God and Father of Jesus. That’s what I’m asking people to recognize (and acknowledge).
No one is going to hell over worshipping "GOD". God doesn't mind. The only thing God minds is grieving the Holy Spirit. As far as worship goes, we know exactly who we worship and why. Although the gentile is adopted, the spirit of God is still being poured out upon "ALL" flesh yet while they were still in sin, and without the knowledge of O.T. Laws. God knows "what" He's doing. We need to be circumcised of the Heart, the flesh/blood of animals, no longer rules.
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