Do you believe the lie?
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Sister-n-Christ
Well-Known Member
I think their deficit is the same here as happens when,if,they are out proselytizing and are invited into a Christian's home. And there they are then challenged to defend their cult doctrine against Bible scriptures. I have friends who have done this.
Without exception the JW's end up leaving with more questions about their belief due to the true answers my Christian friends countered them with.
That's why I say I don't believe AJ is an actual JW. Though her efforts to defend the cults doctrine are lacking and at times desperate. As if they are scrambling to Bible verse sites to answer our posts .
Their worst example regards the passing of the lady who died because JW rules against transfusions.
That woman passed as a victim of depraved indifference. While our resident self identified JW's and their defender, are at a loss for how that could be allowed per cult doctrine. And worse,the indifference to the impact her murder,and it was that when the victim was refused a life giving transfusion due to a cult members personal beliefs, has on her family and friends by insisting still the reporting is a lie.
And the coverups of JW Pedophilia and that history also being denied is precisely the profile that allows that cult to destroy lives for generations.
Do you know how an alleged JW loses any discussion about the Bible,not their book, but then ible itself? Lose even before joining a discussion forum?
Here's how. They enter in first believing the Archangel Michael was Jesus and thus Jesus was a created being.
We can't debate scripture with JW's. Because they don't know what it is.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
That reminds me of when I had two Mormons in my home one time and I talked to them. One of them did most of the talking and I could tell I was making the other one who was less experienced question everything he believed. The more experienced one could sense that, so they abruptly left before I had the chance to further refute their beliefs.
She seems to be saying the same things I can find taught on the JW website, so I'm a bit confused as to why you're saying that. But, anyway, it doesn't matter. She believes what they believe whether she is actually or officially a JW or not.
Well, not every follower of a religion is aware of literally all of that religion's teachings. So, I'm not sure that alone means we can say the ones who identify here as JWs are not actually JWs.
Yes, they are immediately going down the wrong path if that is the first thing they are taught.
Not that I believe I know "everything". or even want to know "everything", but I always check to see if I can ascertain what the context is of the Greek word used in any verse if I'm not sure, and, noting the words "IN ME" in John 15:2 & 6, this is what I found about what you said above:
John 15:2:
Every branch IN ME that beareth not fruit he taketh away [airo]: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 15:6
If a man abide not IN ME, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
G00142 airo {ah'-ee-ro}
a primary root; to lift up; by implication, to take up or away; figuratively, to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind), specially, to sail away (i.e. weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare 5375) to expiate sin:--away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).
I'm not NOSAS but here are some verses that use the same word, and maybe you should take note of the context to see if what you say about the above is correct:
Matthew 4:6:
And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up [airo], lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Matthew 16:24:
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up [airo] his cross, and follow me.
Matthew 11:29:
Take [airo] my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Matthew 14:12:
And his disciples came, and took up [airo] the body, and buried it, and went and told Jesus.
Matthew 9:6:
But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up [airo] thy bed, and go unto thine house.
Not that I "know", but I wouldn't jump to the conclusion you have come to with regard to what Jesus meant about the branch IN HIM that does not bear fruit. It sounds more like He is saying God will bear that as a burden, but with respect to the branch that DOES NOT ABIDE IN HIM, that branch is cast out.
There are lots of people who become saved and have had extremely troublesome and traumatic backgrounds who take years to be set free of emotionally charged stress-produced reactions and even actions, yet they cling to Christ, confessing and repenting, but falling again and again and only slowly begin to produce the fruit of the Spirit.
I think it's maybe a bit harsh to imagine that God is harsh and does not bear up the burden [airo] of the branch who does not bear the fruit of the Spirit and yet through faith in Christ still remains abiding IN HIM.
But I'm not saying that I "know" how Matthew 15:2 "should be" interpreted. I'm just saying I don't necessarily agree with you. Matthew 15:6 is IMO obvious when comparing scripture with scripture, and most certainly would require a choice on the part of the branch NOT TO ABIDE IN HIM. In other words, a falling away from faith in Christ that is a conscious and deliberate decision on the part of the branch.
PS95
Well-Known Member
I understand. Mattias on here and Trevor - a Christadelphian share your view.
Wescott and Hort amazingly had a lot in common with your other JW buddy Johannes Greber... (a god)
ALL 3 were involved with spiritism and necromancy
makes perfect sense...
Do you think it's impossible to be saved if one is denying Christ's deity? Or maybe we should look at it from God's perspective not ours. Would God condemn every single JW to the LOF because they denied that Christ is God? Would that be a valid reason for God to cast all JWs into the LOF?
Very well stated!
Do you mean John?
Something to remember . . . "the branch that does not abide in Me" does not mean that this branch once did. Simply that it doesn't. Many people do think of it that way, but it doesn't actually say that.
It's like saying, I abide in this house, I do not abide in that house. I never did live there.
Much love!
All who call upon the name of the LORD shall be saved.
None who take up the name of the LORD in vain (in an empty way) will be held guiltless.
There is one name given under heaven by which men must be saved.
I think that's the heart of the matter.
We call upon the name of YHWH, and that name is Jesus.
Much love!
You never see an example of Jesus or any of His apostles pleading with people who were rejecting the message after having first accepted it. There were many who turned away and no longer followed Him after His most difficult statement He ever made, which He clarified immediately after most turned away - either to follow Him, or not to turn away if they at first followed Him but afterward turned away.
You will no doubt say that if they first followed Him and then turned away, it means they were never saved in the first place, but that does not explain why the author to the Hebrews was talking to people who WERE following Christ when he said:
Hebrews 6:4-9:
"For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, become partakers of the Holy Spirit, tasted the good word of God and the miracles of the coming age, and then have committed apostasy, to renew them again to repentance, since they are crucifying the Son of God for themselves all over again and holding him up to contempt.
For the ground that has soaked up the rain that frequently falls on it and yields useful vegetation for those who tend it receives a blessing from God. But if it produces thorns and thistles, it is useless and about to be cursed; its fate is to be burned. But in your case, dear friends, even though we speak like this, we are convinced of better things relating to salvation.
Why was he speaking to believers like that, who had not fallen away?
John 6:66-68:
After this many of his disciples quit following him and did not accompany him any longer. So Jesus said to the twelve, "You don't want to go away too, do you?" Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words of eternal life.
1 John 2:19:
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us, because if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But they went out from us to demonstrate that all of them do not belong to us.
(Amazing how these words are contained in John 6:66: "After this many of his disciples quit following him and did not accompany him any longer.". I only noticed that now).
Anyway, you may believe that it's not going to happen that someone who once believed in and followed Christ could later turn away later by choice, but I don't believe that scripture teaches that.
You will no doubt say that if they first followed Him and then turned away, it means they were never saved in the first place, but that does not explain why the author to the Hebrews was talking to people who WERE following Christ when he said:
Hebrews 6:4-9:
"For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, become partakers of the Holy Spirit, tasted the good word of God and the miracles of the coming age, and then have committed apostasy, to renew them again to repentance, since they are crucifying the Son of God for themselves all over again and holding him up to contempt.
For the ground that has soaked up the rain that frequently falls on it and yields useful vegetation for those who tend it receives a blessing from God. But if it produces thorns and thistles, it is useless and about to be cursed; its fate is to be burned. But in your case, dear friends, even though we speak like this, we are convinced of better things relating to salvation.
Why was he speaking to believers like that, who had not fallen away?
John 6:66-68:
After this many of his disciples quit following him and did not accompany him any longer. So Jesus said to the twelve, "You don't want to go away too, do you?" Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words of eternal life.
1 John 2:19:
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us, because if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But they went out from us to demonstrate that all of them do not belong to us.
(Amazing how these words are contained in John 6:66: "After this many of his disciples quit following him and did not accompany him any longer.". I only noticed that now).
Anyway, you may believe that it's not going to happen that someone who once believed in and followed Christ could later turn away later by choice, but I don't believe that scripture teaches that.
If anyone does not remain [meno] in me, he is thrown out like a branch, and dries up; and such branches are gathered up and thrown into the fire, and are burned up.
"abide" [meno]
G03306 μένω
mevnw meno {men'-o}
a primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy):--abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), X thine own.
Ask yourself if the above word simply means to dwell in, or to continue to dwell in by asking why a branch would be thrown out if it wasn't dwelling in Christ in the first place.
You don't have to tell me what you believe the answer is (though you can if you want to). I know what I believe the answer is.
@marks (edited). Some examples of verses using the same word:
Matthew 11:23:
And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained [meno] until this day.
Matthew 26:38:
Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry [meno] ye here, and watch with me.
Matthew 10:11:
And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide [meno] till ye go thence.
By who's choice? There is the new creation, who we are in spirit, and there is the flesh which is already condemned, and remains hostile to God. The new creation spirit would not depart from God. The flesh remains hostile to God.
If we walk in the Spirit, we won't do the works of the flesh. Included such things as "rejecting God", that is clearly a work of the flesh. The flesh is already condemned.
Notice how this part is contrasted against this part?
Personally I prefer the King James, I find it a better translation,
Hebrews 6:4-9 KJV
4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7) For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8) But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9) But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
This shows the contrast more clearly, Things that accompany salvation, which are better things, the writer says, than those things said above.
Notice in verses 4 and 5 how the writer gives a list of things, but does not include any reference to rebirth? Or being baptized into Christ? Or being in the body of Christ? None of the ways salvation in the NT is spoken of are used here.
However, everything said can be applied to the Jews who saw Jesus.
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,
They heard Jesus, they saw Jesus, the true light, that enlightens every man. But not every man is saved.
and have tasted of the heavenly gift,
They received a taste, being healed, demons cast out, bread and fish multiplied . . .
and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
in the simple aorist tense, not like the perfect tense used of those who hold their confidence to the end (Heb 10), Jesus sent out the 12, and then the 70, doing all the same miracles Jesus did by the power of the Holy Spirit.
5) And have tasted the good word of God,
He taught them all the Father commanded
and the powers of the world to come,
lit. the age to come. A glimpse into the future of Israel with Jesus reigns.
At the end of this part, the writer says that he's convinced of better things than what he's written about, things that accompany salvation. The preceding part therefore is not "things that accompany salvation".
So rather than saying a saved person may be permanently unsaved, which conflicts with much Scripture, he's saying that these who saw Him, heard Him, were healed by Him, some of whom even did the same works as Him, these cannot be brought back to repentance.
These are the ones who could commit blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, claiming Jesus' works (which proved His identity) were satanic in origin. All sins would be forgiven men except this one. This one sin, where the rulers of the people blasphemed the Holy Spirit so the people would not believe.
Think about it.
Much love!
Sister-n-Christ
Well-Known Member
I think the JW that insists on correcting our faith allegiance by using their understanding via the Kingdom Hall teachings is communicating they at least think they know enough to do so.
This may help us to know what we are dealing with in the JW sphere.
Factsheet: Jehovah’s Witnesses - Religion Media Centre
Jehovah's Witnesses are the followers of a Christian-based religion perhaps best known for their door-to-door evangelising, their belief that we are living in the last days, and their refusal of blood transfusions
religionmediacentre.org.uk
Sorry but I don't agree with the way you're dissecting that passage. Smacks to me of trying to make what it's saying comply with your view, or with what you prefer it to be saying. Nobody is made a partaker of the Holy Spirit unless that person has been born of the Spirit. You're ignoring the fact that they are falling away from something.
Just like Jesus' parables, the wheat gathered into barns, the tares gathered to be burned.
John 15:2-6 KJV
2) Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3) Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4) Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6) If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Something to notice is that the ones in Christ are actually called branches. The one not in Christ is not called a branch, but is compared to a branch for the purpose of the description.
We are branches, abiding in Christ. The one who does not abide in Christ will be cast out like you cast out a branch, to be gathered and burned. This is what the passage is saying, regardless of how you interpret it. This is just the words Jesus spoke.
Much love!
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Are you certain of that? Do you have another explanation of how they all returned, joyous, the sick were healed, the demons cast out, everything? Even Judas Iscariot. Yes, Jesus sent out Judas, and they ALL returned with this glorious report.
Much love!
He is before all things. By Him were all things created. Colossians 1:16-17.
I always ask them if He created Himself. I've never got an answer.
That's a rather light view of the years I've spent considering all the different ways these words might be understood, on something so integral to a correct soteriology.
So, you don't know me, and you don't know me to be this way, or that way. Right? Forget about me. I'm just some guy typing on the internet. Best used for cat videos and arguing with strangers.
The one thing I ask you, consider what I say, whether it may be true. My goal isn't to show you my interpretations, rather to show what the words say for themselves.
Much love!
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