Do you believe the lie?

[Aunty Jane]

It's pointless to try to discuss this any further with someone who thinks so many verses were mistranslated. How do you even decide that any of them are translated correctly? What a joke.

What makes you trust the translators? If there was an agenda, very early in Christian history, to hide the true identity of the one Jesus called “the only true God” without including himself, (John 17:3) except as the one who was “sent” by his God, then those who accept what Jesus never taught, have to explain all those Bible verses that contradict the trinity.

The “joke” is on those who continue to swallow counterfeit Christianity, as Jesus told us would be sown by the devil in the world, and it would be perpetuated right up to the time of “the harvest”…..the majority would fall for it, but a faithful minority would regain their footing in this “time of the end” and get back on the right track. A great reset is about to take place with Christ’s return….”just like the days of Noah” he said…..what is that model teaching us? (Matt 24:37-39) How many survived the flood….and how did Noah and his family manage to escape a catastrophe that took everyone else’s life…..?

You tell me…...there is a bigger picture….a much bigger one.

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

It's pointless to try to discuss this any further with someone who thinks so many verses were mistranslated. How do you even decide that any of them are translated correctly? What a joke.

It might help to understand where any JW is coming from if you find out the book they use is The New World translation.

A committee of men who remain anonymous were members of the Watchtower and Bible Tract Society. Who's the governing body of JW's.

The NWT is the first book commissioned by a religious body that augmented an actual Bible translation the content of which was copied and edited so to create a book that comports with the JW doctrine.

Understanding the Key Differences Between Jehovah's Witnesses and Christianity

Jehovahs Witnesses have distinct beliefs that set them apart from mainstream Christianity They reject the doctrine of the Trinity believing that God is a single being and that Jesus is a created being They also do not celebrate holidays like Christmas and Easter considering them to have pagan...

biblebasedliving.com

And:
How does the New World Translation differ from the Bible?
Numerous examples could be cited. For instance, John 1:1, in the NWT, reads that the Word was ” a god” (rather than “God”) because JWs deny the divinity of Christ. Similarly, in Colossians 1:15-20, the NWT inserts the word “other” into the text four times because JWs believe that Christ was created.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Do you only ever look at one translation? Here is one that better shows the meaning of the verse...

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

Happy with that

It simply means that Abraham was looking forward to the day when Jesus would come and He foresaw it in the sense that He knew it would come and He was excited about it because of what He knew that day would bring (salvation). He obviously didn't literally see it since He died before Christ came.

So, what you're saying is that Abraham saw Christ’s day through the eye of faith, and this spiritual vision was given by promise.

Would you then agree that Jesus was alluding to the fact that Abraham had the Gospel preached to him, just as Galatians 3:8 affirms and that he “saw” the day of Christ by faith?

Why is this significant?

Because, as you rightly point out, Jesus goes on to declare that the promise concerning him existed even before Abraham. In essence, Christ is teaching his audience that he was preeminent in the hearts and minds of those who anticipated the fulfillment of God’s promise.

What does 1 Peter 1:20 say? and how does this fit with what Christ is teaching in John 8?

Do you also believe Jesus was a "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev 13:8) - Did God literally offer Jesus as a Lamb 1000's of years before Pilate sentenced him?

Can you see this context? Can you see why these matters need further consideration?

Since you didn't answer my question of whether or not you think Jesus is God, I will take that as a no.

I've already stated earlier I am a Unitarian.

Can you tell me why you think they wanted to kill Jesus after He said "Before Abraham was, I am"? Why do you think they were so angry with Him for saying that?

So, are you saying that their assumptions are also yours? and that they were correct?

This is why I asked earlier whether you had considered the possibility of another interpretation, one you may not have fully explored.

You’ve likely already considered how many assumptions are required to arrive at your conclusion. And as you know, if the Son of God chooses to allude to His Father’s Name, a Name that all of God’s children will ultimately bear then the reaction of his listeners doesn’t necessarily confirm that he was claiming to be God Himself, but rather that he was in the mind of the Father from the very beginning.

The context supports Jesus speaking of his preeminence, established by faith and promise, rather than asserting a claim of literal preexistence.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Oh?

John 17:12

 

[PS95]

Happy with that


So, what you're saying is that Abraham saw Christ’s day through the eye of faith, and this spiritual vision was given by promise.

Would you then agree that Jesus was alluding to the fact that Abraham had the Gospel preached to him, just as Galatians 3:8 affirms and that he “saw” the day of Christ by faith?

Why is this significant?

Because, as you rightly point out, Jesus goes on to declare that the promise concerning him existed even before Abraham. In essence, Christ is teaching his audience that he was preeminent in the hearts and minds of those who anticipated the fulfillment of God’s promise.

What does 1 Peter 1:20 say? and how does this fit with what Christ is teaching in John 8?

Do you also believe Jesus was a "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev 13:8) - Did God literally offer Jesus as a Lamb 1000's of years before Pilate sentenced him?

Can you see this context? Can you see why these matters need further consideration?


I've already stated earlier I am a Unitarian.

So, are you saying that their assumptions are also yours? and that they were correct?

This is why I asked earlier whether you had considered the possibility of another interpretation, one you may not have fully explored.

You’ve likely already considered how many assumptions are required to arrive at your conclusion. And as you know, if the Son of God chooses to allude to His Father’s Name, a Name that all of God’s children will ultimately bear then the reaction of his listeners doesn’t necessarily confirm that he was claiming to be God Himself, but rather that he was in the mind of the Father from the very beginning.

The context supports Jesus speaking of his preeminence, established by faith and promise, rather than asserting a claim of literal preexistence.

Hi there. By Unitarian I'm going to guess perhaps you are along the lines of thinking the Word of God was a notion, or idea aka an it?

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

John 17:12

I thought so.

I disagree Judas was lost.
Satan, the adversary that possessed Judas so he would betray Jesus is the one referred to there.

Jesus forgave everyone responsible for his crucifixion. Which works out for Judas who repented before he died.

Plus,how would Judas be condemned? When his act insured prophecy would be fulfilled.

And though Judas cursed himself by being hanged from a tree,so too did Jesus. Which is how he could be the propiation for sins.

And from that cross he forgave all responsible for his being on the cross. Because they did not know what they ,including Judas, were doing.
Which was fulfilling prophecy.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Hi there. By Unitarian I'm going to guess perhaps you are along the lines of thinking the Word of God was a notion, or idea aka an it?

The word notion feels a bit weak, almost as if it downplays the thoughts and purposes of God. But yes, the Master was indeed in the Mind of God before the foundation of this age was laid.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I thought so.

I disagree Judas was lost.
Satan, the adversary that possessed Judas so he would betray Jesus is the one referred to there.

Jesus forgave everyone responsible for his crucifixion. Which works out for Judas who repented before he died.

Plus,how would Judas be condemned? When his act insured prophecy would be fulfilled.

And though Judas cursed himself by being hanged from a tree,so too did Jesus. Which is how he could be the propiation for sins.

And from that cross he forgave all responsible for his being on the cross. Because they did not know what they ,including Judas, were doing.
Which was fulfilling prophecy.

His bowels gushed out - do you understand its meaning? Acts 1:18

Judas fell in such a way that his intestines (Gr. splagchna: spleen) were exposed, and "poured out." There is here a contrast with his Master, whose "soul was poured out unto death" but his sacrifice led to joy and life, whereas the fatality of Judas resulted in ignominy, shame and death.

This one was lost.

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

His bowels gushed out - do you understand its meaning? Acts 1:18

Judas fell in such a way that his intestines (Gr. splagchna: spleen) were exposed, and "poured out." There is here a contrast with his Master, whose "soul was poured out unto death" but his sacrifice led to joy and life, whereas the fatality of Judas resulted in ignominy, shame and death.

This one was lost.

Judas being possessed so he would betray Jesus and so he could be an agent in fulfilling prophecy , is lost?

And his gut burst open when he fell on the ground of the field Akeldama and that he'd bought with the monies received for betraying Jesus. So that his corpse was in shame and humiliation?

How did Judas buy the field with money paid him to betray Jesus?
When before he hanged himself he repented and returned the silver to the Pharisees?

Is Judas responsible for betraying Jesus? When it was Satan within him that used Judas to that end?

Which would be another reason Jesus forgave those responsible for his crucifixion. On account of their not knowing what they were doing.
That would certainly pertain to Judas given he wasn't doing it. Satan was.

 

[Aunty Jane]

It might help to understand where any JW is coming from if you find out the book they use is The New World translation.

Have you ever examined it personally….? It is a legitimate Bible translation based on the manuscripts of Westcott and Hort….both established Greek scholars. It is not unusual for scholars to disagree with each other so, pick your scholars……we did.

A committee of men who remain anonymous were members of the Watchtower and Bible Tract Society. Who's the governing body of JW's.

The NWT is the first book commissioned by a religious body that augmented an actual Bible translation the content of which was copied and edited so to create a book that comports with the JW doctrine.

LOL…and you know this from personal experience I assume?
I will defend the NWT against any other English Bible translation. The only people who have a problem with the NWT are trinitarians who object to the Greek being translated as it should have been…..truthfully.

Original language word studies are not undertaken by the majority of people who claim to be “Christians”, so they accept what they are told with no substantial evidence that what they complain about in the NWT is even true. And they are not open to explanations because they think they cannot be wrong.
Like talking to a fence post.

And:
How does the New World Translation differ from the Bible?
Numerous examples could be cited. For instance, John 1:1, in the NWT, reads that the Word was ” a god” (rather than “God”) because JWs deny the divinity of Christ. Similarly, in Colossians 1:15-20, the NWT inserts the word “other” into the text four times because JWs believe that Christ was created.

Let’s take these examples…
John 1:1 does not say in English what it says in Greek….do you care?
If it was translated correctly with the word “theos” rendered as it should have been in the Greek, then no trinity could ever have existed.
The way they identified the one God of the Jews was by use of the definite article “ho”. (the)
Jesus is never called “ho theos”…he is only ever identified as “theos”.

This Greek word for “god” (“theos”) has several meanings especially in a language where the people believed in multiple gods.
Strongs primary definition of “theos” is…..

1. a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities

and can also mean….

1. whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
   1. God's representative or viceregent
      1. of magistrates and judges”

So as you can see, calling Jesus “theos” is not calling him Yahweh.

If the divine name had still been in use then John 1:1 would have read….

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Yahweh, and the Word was divine (or godlike)”.

All the Greek gods had names, but the God of the Jews was at that time nameless as the Jews refused to speak it. They substituted the word “Adonai“ meaning “Lord” in Hebrew. But the Tetragrammaton was still in their Hebrew text, so consulting the Hebrew we can see clearly where the divine name belongs as it is usually in capital letters.…almost 7000 times in the OT alone.
But in the Christian era, Jesus was also referred to by the title “Lord” which in Bible times indicated a title of respect, not deity. Sarah called Abraham “lord” but she didn’t think he was God. (1 Pet 3:5-6)


And the “other” verses you mentioned…..Have you read them?
The addition of the word “other” in no way alters the meaning of those verses.

Here is that scripture from the ESV…
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”

And from the NWT….
” He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist“.

Whatever way you read it….Jesus existed “before all things”….he is “the firstborn of ALL creation”. “ALL things” were created “through him and for him”. The word “other” is optional but does not alter the meaning of the text.

I’m sure there are more that you would like to highlight, so please feel free……but I will show you why we accept Westcott and Hort’s manuscripts over other scholars.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Judas being possessed so he would betray Jesus and so he could be an agent in fulfilling prophecy , is lost?

And his gut burst open when he fell on the ground of the field Akeldama and that he'd bought with the monies received for betraying Jesus. So that his corpse was in shame and humiliation?

How did Judas buy the field with money paid him to betray Jesus?
When before he hanged himself he repented and returned the silver to the Pharisees?

Is Judas responsible for betraying Jesus? When it was Satan within him that used Judas to that end?

Which would be another reason Jesus forgave those responsible for his crucifixion. On account of their not knowing what they were doing.
That would certainly pertain to Judas given he wasn't doing it. Satan was.

Reads a bit like passing the blame in the beginning.

Sorry but it doesnt work that way.

Judas had the opportunity to attain a significant position of authority potentially even to govern one of the tribes of Israel (Matt 19:28). However, he squandered that opportunity and forfeited his future. As a result, his office was given to someone else.

 

[Zao is life]

if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."

There's confusion about immortality and its source also.

@ewq1938 @Spiritual Israelite and many others posting here - like most Christians (but not all) - seem to have immortality conflated with the eternal life that is its only source.

The source of our quickening, resurrection and immortality does not switch from the eternal life / Spirit of Christ in us to our own spirits once we are immortal.

The Spirit of Christ - in you .. .. is the eternal Spirit of God in you (not our own spirit) ..

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he (the Father) that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."

The Spirit of God is life (eternal life), which only God has in Himself and among human beings the Son of God alone has in Himself, He is the Spirit of God that quickens and raises the mortal bodies of created human beings and makes us immortal.

In the Revelation He's the river of life, the water of life. In Genesis and in the Revelation He's the tree of life. In the gospel of John He's, the Word of God in Whom is life (John 1:4).

That eternal Spirit / Life [zoe] is in Christ and is the possession of Christ alone, but is given to created human beings who are in Christ through our faith in Christ and through the Spirit of Christ being IN us.

He is the source of being alive forever / immortal [zao] - the same life God breathed into Adam when Adam became a living [zao] being / soul.

The immortality that Adam had before He was prevented from eating of the tree of life and living [zao] forever (being alive in his created body forever) is dependent on the source of eternal life, and always will be.

The Vine of our eternal life is Jesus - our Savior who took on human flesh to bear our sin upon Himself and die in our place, who rose again from the dead. He possesses the eternal Spirit / eternal life in Himself. Only God and the Son of God possesses the only source of the immortality of human beings in Himself.

Eternal life is in Christ, who alone has life [zoe] in Himself. Only God has life [zoe] in Himself (John 1:2 & 4; John 5:26; 1 John 5:11-12); and He said:

--- I am the vine, ye are the branches. Abide in me, and I in you, because if a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned, and as the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. --- (John 15:4-6, verses rearranged).

Being given life and being alive forever (immortal) does not depend on human beings - it is CONTINUALLY dependent on the Spirit of the living God who has eternal life in Himself and gives it to the one who is abiding continually in the Vine of life. IT STILL REQUIRES CONTINUAL ABIDING.

Adam did that UNTIL he believed the lie, and sinned. THEN he was prevented from eating of the tree of life and living forever.

@ewq1938 makes statements that imply that once we have immortality, that immortality cannot be lost by the immortal who fails to abide in the Vine - which John says is the Word of God (John 1:4). God is a Spirit. The Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit are one God.

OUR LIFE, OUR IMMORTALITY, OUR EXISTENCE IS DEPENDENT ON GOD, AND ALWAYS WILL BE.

Our salvation is not dependent on us either. It was bought by Christ and He presented His blood to the Father in the heavenly holy of holies. The blood abides forever.

Righteousness can only come through faith in Jesus Christ: "By faith Noah, having been warned by God of things not yet seen, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith." ( Hebrews 11:7).

Christ paid the price. The blood of Christ and the empty tomb proves it. Nothing we can do, nothing other than the blood of Christ and the empty tomb will ever prove that we belong to Him and that we are saved, if we believe.

There is nothing more that we can add to "paying toward" our salvation, because Christ died for us while we were sinners (Romans 5:8), and that is what saved us - Christ's death, and Christ's resurrection.

WHAT HUMAN EFFORT IS ABLE TO DO

"Make every effort to ADD to your faith: (not to Christ's purchase of your salvation, BUT TO YOUR FAITH)

Excellence, to excellence, knowledge; to knowledge, self-control; to self-control, perseverance; to perseverance, godliness; to godliness, brotherly affection; to brotherly affection, unselfish love."

Why add this?

"Because if these things are really yours and are continually increasing, they will keep you from becoming ineffective and unproductive in your pursuit of knowing our Lord Jesus Christ more intimately." -- 2 Peter 1:5-8

We can add the above to our faith, but we cannot add our salvation or our justification through human effort - we are adding the above things "in order that we will kept from becoming ineffective and unproductive in our pursuit of knowing our Lord Jesus Christ more intimately".

We should choose to add the above to our faith, but if we choose NOT TO continue abiding in the Vine, we will die. Immortality relates to being alive in the body forever, the body never dying. Whether our mortal bodies are quickened by the Spirit or raised by the Spirit or whether we are immortal, it's dependent on it's source and requires us continually abiding in the Vine of eternal life which God alone possesses in Himself, but gives to created human beings who are continually abiding in the Vine.