Do you believe the lie?

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do you think it's impossible to be saved if one is denying Christ's deity?

I would not go that far because I am not the Judge. My opinion about that means nothing and it only matters what the Judge (Jesus) determines.

But, since you're just asking for my opinion, I'll share how I see it.

Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” 14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” 16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?

Paul made it clear that declaring and confessing that Jesus is Lord, and believing in your heart that God the Father raised Him from the dead, is required in order to be saved. I believe this applies to those who have heard of Jesus. Obviously, no one who hasn't even heard of Him will say that Jesus is Lord. I think those that haven't heard of Him will be judged based on what is written in Romans 1 and 2.

Anyway, what does it mean for Jesus to be "Lord"? To me, it means He is God. He is the One who is above all things. He is the One we have to answer to as our Lord and Master. All of the references to the "Lord" in the above passage are translated from the Greek word "kyrios" (Strong's G262). The word can be used to refer to a human master, but it most often used to refer to Jesus. But, sometimes it it used to refer to God. Like in this verse.

Romans 4:8 Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.

That is a quote from this verse:

Psalm 32:2 Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord does not count against them and in whose spirit is no deceit.

I don't think anyone would try to say that Psalm 32:2 is referring to anyone but God since only God can forgive sins. But, Jesus forgave sins, also.

Notice Romans 10:16 above which references this verse:

Isaiah 53:1 Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?

The word "Lord" there is translated from the Hebrew "Jehovah". No one can try to say that verse isn't referring to God. Yet, in Romans 10, Jesus is referred to in the same context as only God is ever referred to in scripture.

So, to me, declaring "Jesus is Lord" is the same as declaring Him as God and as your Lord and Master. Because of that, I have to question the salvation of anyone who is not willing to claim that Jesus is Lord in that sense.

Or maybe we should look at it from God's perspective not ours.

What made you think I wasn't doing that?

Would God condemn every single JW to the LOF because they denied that Christ is God? Would that be a valid reason for God to cast all JWs into the LOF?

For that reason alone? Not necessarily. When someone first believes they may not fully understand who Jesus is and that He is God. But, once a person sees some of the many places in scripture which teach that He is God and they then deny that truth, what does that say about that person? I have a hard time believing that such a person could be saved. I can't imagine any saved person denying things that are clearly taught in scripture, including that Jesus is God.

 

[Zao is life]

Just like Jesus' parables, the wheat gathered into barns, the tares gathered to be burned.

John 15:2-6 KJV
2) Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3) Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4) Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6) If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Something note is that the ones in Christ are called branches. The one not in Christ is not called a branch, but is compared to a branch for the purpose of the description.

We are branches, abiding in Christ. The one who does not abide in Christ will be cast out like you cast out a branch, to be gathered and burned. This is what the passage is saying, regardless of how you interpret it. This is just the words Jesus spoke.

Much love!

Sometimes - actually quite often - scripture means what it plainly means, you know?

Again, the way you're dissecting that passage and giving your reasons while trying to explain that it means something other than what it plainly means is all too familiar to me. It's the kind of thing I see every time I see someone trying to make scripture comply with what they believe it "should be" saying. All sorts of possible nuances to the plain meaning are being brought up by you.

 

[Zao is life]

That's a rather light view of the years I've spent considering all the different ways these words might be understood, on something so integral to a correct soteriology.

So, you don't know me, and you don't know me to be this way, or that way. Right? Forget about me. I'm just some guy typing on the internet. Best used for cat videos and arguing with strangers.

The one thing I ask you, consider what I say, whether it may be true. My goal isn't to show you my interpretations, rather to show what the words say for themselves.

Much love!

I'm sorry I don't want to offend you knowing your years of research. See my Post #162.

Years of research beginning with attempting to find proof of a premise that's false can do that to a person. Not meaning to minimize your work but just being honest.

I think the way you're explaining the plain meaning away is convoluted. Maybe because my years of research and prayerful study - asking God for understanding of the scriptures - has led me to an entirely different conclusion.

And that's the problem with the human mind that the teaching of the Spirit has to pass through. It's no different for any of us.

We should agree now to disagree because I'm too straight-forward and you've taken offense.

 

[Zao is life]

Are you certain of that? Do you have another explanation of how they all returned, joyous, the sick were healed, the demons cast out, everything? Even Judas Iscariot. Yes, Jesus sent out Judas, and they ALL returned with this glorious report.

Much love!

Seeing Jesus doing miracles does not make the onlookers partakers of the Holy Spirit. When did Jesus breathe onto them and say, "Receive My Spirit"?

John 20
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

It was after He had given them authority to cast out demons.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If anyone does not remain [meno] in me, he is thrown out like a branch, and dries up; and such branches are gathered up and thrown into the fire, and are burned up.

"abide" [meno]

G03306 μένω
mevnw meno {men'-o}
a primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy):--abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), X thine own.

Ask yourself if the above word simply means to dwell in, or to continue to dwell in by asking why a branch would be thrown out if it wasn't dwelling in Christ in the first place.

You don't have to tell me what you believe the answer is (though you can if you want to). I know what I believe the answer is.

@marks (edited). Some examples of verses using the same word:

Matthew 11:23:
And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained [meno] until this day.

Matthew 26:38:
Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry [meno] ye here, and watch with me.

Matthew 10:11:
And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide [meno] till ye go thence.

Right. You can't abide/remain in Christ unless you are in Christ (belong to Him) in the first place.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

By who's choice? There is the new creation, who we are in spirit, and there is the flesh which is already condemned, and remains hostile to God. The new creation spirit would not depart from God. The flesh remains hostile to God.

If we walk in the Spirit, we won't do the works of the flesh. Included such things as "rejecting God", that is clearly a work of the flesh. The flesh is already condemned.

Notice how this part is contrasted against this part?

Personally I prefer the King James, I find it a better translation,


Hebrews 6:4-9 KJV
4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7) For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8) But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9) But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

This shows the contrast more clearly, Things that accompany salvation, which are better things, the writer says, than those things said above.

Better things than being "enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost" and having "tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come"? I don't think that is what verse 9 is referring to. I think it's referring to better things than falling away and not being able to be renewed again to repentance because of it since by doing that someone would "crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.".

 

[Zao is life]

Something to notice is that the ones in Christ are actually called branches. The one not in Christ is not called a branch, but is compared to a branch for the purpose of the description.

That' bold part is an example of what I mean by to me it smacks of attempting to make what is being plainly said comply with what you think it "should be" saying or maybe want it to say. No one abiding in the vine is a branch. We are all being compared to branches, and Christ to a vine.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Something to notice is that the ones in Christ are actually called branches. The one not in Christ is not called a branch, but is compared to a branch for the purpose of the description.

That' bold part is an example of what I mean by to me it smacks of attempting to make what is being plainly said comply with what you think it "should be" saying or maybe want it to say.

I agree.

John 15:6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Clearly, those who are not in Christ are called "such branches" as those who do not remain in Christ, so it's not true that they are not called branches. They are. And Jesus said "such branches" who do not remain in Him "are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned".

 

[marks]

Sometimes - actually quite often - scripture means what it plainly means, you know?

Again, the way you're dissecting that passage and giving your reasons while trying to explain that it means something other than what it plainly means is all too familiar to me. It's the kind of thing I see every time I see someone trying to make scripture comply with what they believe it "should be" saying. All sorts of possible nuances to the plain meaning are being brought up by you.

I'm just telling you about the language. Make my day, please! See if what I'm saying is true. What these words say. Isn't that the plain saying of Scripture? That's what I think. Find what it plainly says, and believe it.

Let me ask you. Do you believe this passage in what it specifically says? That all who are risen with Christ now will appear with Him in glory then?

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

If even just one person who was raised with Christ in this life does not appear with Him in glory, then this passage becomes false, and that cannot be.

So the question is, do you believe exactly what it says?

Much love!

 

[marks]

That' bold part is an example of what I mean by to me it smacks of attempting to make what is being plainly said comply with what you think it "should be" saying or maybe want it to say. No one abiding in the vine is a branch. We are all being compared to branches, and Christ to a vine.

Again, just telling you what the words are, and what they do or don't mean. After that it's up to you. "hos" a branch, as a branch, it's a comparative word in this context.

Much love!

 

[Zao is life]

I would not go that far because I am not the Judge. My opinion about that means nothing and it only matters what the Judge (Jesus) determines.

But, since you're just asking for my opinion, I'll share how I see it.

Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” 14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” 16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?

Paul made it clear that declaring and confessing that Jesus is Lord, and believing in your heart that God the Father raised Him from the dead, is required in order to be saved. I believe this applies to those who have heard of Jesus. Obviously, no one who hasn't even heard of Him will say that Jesus is Lord. I think those that haven't heard of Him will be judged based on what is written in Romans 1 and 2.

Anyway, what does it mean for Jesus to be "Lord"? To me, it means He is God. He is the One who is above all things. He is the One we have to answer to as our Lord and Master. All of the references to the "Lord" in the above passage are translated from the Greek word "kyrios" (Strong's G262). The word can be used to refer to a human master, but it most often used to refer to Jesus. But, sometimes it it used to refer to God. Like in this verse.

Romans 4:8 Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.

That is a quote from this verse:

Psalm 32:2 Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord does not count against them and in whose spirit is no deceit.

I don't think anyone would try to say that Psalm 32:2 is referring to anyone but God since only God can forgive sins. But, Jesus forgave sins, also.

Notice Romans 10:16 above which references this verse:

Isaiah 53:1 Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?

The word "Lord" there is translated from the Hebrew "Jehovah". No one can try to say that verse isn't referring to God. Yet, in Romans 10, Jesus is referred to in the same context as only God is ever referred to in scripture.

So, to me, declaring "Jesus is Lord" is the same as declaring Him as God and as your Lord and Master. Because of that, I have to question the salvation of anyone who is not willing to claim that Jesus is Lord in that sense.


What made you think I wasn't doing that?


For that reason alone? Not necessarily. When someone first believes they may not fully understand who Jesus is and that He is God. But, once a person sees some of the many places in scripture which teach that He is God and they then deny that truth, what does that say about that person? I have a hard time believing that such a person could be saved. I can't imagine any saved person denying things that are clearly taught in scripture, including that Jesus is God.

IMO, if someone believes in the New Testament, the New Testament teaches us to believe in the Old Testament. And if we believe the scriptures without attempting to change their meaning, Jesus is God:

Isaiah 45:21-25
"Who has declared this of old? Who has told it from then? Is it not I, YHVH? And there is no other God besides Me; a just God and a Savior; there is none besides Me.

Turn to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself, the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Philippians 2:5-11
"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

* Paul calls God Savior in the verses below.
* Paul calls Jesus Savior in the verses below:

Titus 1:1-4
"Paul, a servant of God (Greek: θεός theós) and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, in the acknowledging of the truth which is according to godliness on hope of eternal life, which God. who cannot lie, promised before the eternal times, but revealed in its own times in a proclamation of His word,
with which I was entrusted by the command of God (Greek: θεός theós) our Savior, to Titus, a true child according to our common faith. Grace mercy and peace from God (Greek: θεός theós) the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior."

1 Timothy 3:16
"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

There's quite a lot more, but to me there is no REAL excuse for denying the deity of Christ by using scripture - and actually changing scripture to say what you want it to be saying. That's abuse of the inspired Word of God.

I have a close family member who is a JW. I love him dearly but cannot lie to myself about this - if I did I would not ever have prayed for him or even tried to speak to him.

Us speaking to one another about this just ends up with a fight so we don't talk about it AT ALL anymore. But if I believed he was still saved I would stop praying for his salvation.

No thanks. I'll rather acknowledge the truth.

 

[marks]

Seeing Jesus doing miracles does not make the onlookers partakers of the Holy Spirit. When did Jesus breathe onto them and say, "Receive My Spirit"?

Matthew 10:5-8 KJV
5) These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6) But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7) And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8) Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Luke 10:1-9 KJV
1) After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
2) Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
3) Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.
4) Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.
5) And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house.
6) And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again.
7) And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
8) And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:
9) And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

Luke 10:17 KJV
17) And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

Do you suppose they did these works by the power of the Holy Spirit?

Much love!

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

I'm not really reading his posts . . . just FYI

You're not really reading others here either.

 

[Zao is life]

Again, just telling you what the words are, and what they do or don't mean. After that it's up to you. "hos" a branch, as a branch, it's a comparative word in this context.

Much love!

We are all being compared to branches in that passage. And Jesus is being compared to a vine. So cast forth as a branch simply means cast away like a dead branch would be cast away.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Again, just telling you what the words are, and what they do or don't mean. After that it's up to you. "hos" a branch, as a branch, it's a comparative word in this context.

John 15:2 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Jesus said that a branch in Him that doesn't bear fruit is taken away that a branch in Him that does bear fruit is purged (pruned) in order "that it may bring forth more fruit"? They are both branches in Him, but it seems like you are trying to say otherwise. The difference between the two branches in Him is that one doesn't bear fruit and one does. The one that doesn't is taken away and the other is pruned in order to produce more fruit.

 

[Zao is life]

Matthew 10:5-8 KJV
5) These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6) But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7) And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8) Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Luke 10:1-9 KJV
1) After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
2) Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
3) Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.
4) Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.
5) And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house.
6) And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again.
7) And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
8) And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:
9) And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

Luke 10:17 KJV
17) And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

Do you suppose they did these works by the power of the Holy Spirit?

Much love!

I'm a partaker of the Holy Spirit and I have never done those works. They were not yet partakers of the Holy Spirit because Jesus had not yet breathed on them and said, "Receive ye the Holy Spirit" and yet He gave them power to do those works.

To be a partaker of the Holy Spirit and the things Hebrews is describing are unmistakably referring to those who have been born of the Spirit, IMO - and he is urging the people he is talking to not to fall away. My answer is the same as the one below by @Spiritual Israelite

Better things than being "enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost" and having "tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come"? I don't think that is what verse 9 is referring to. I think it's referring to better things than falling away and not being able to be renewed again to repentance because of it since by doing that someone would "crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.".

IMO your dissection is not accurate. I can't help it. You're looking for other meanings of the way the words have been translated into English in order to change the context into something other than the plain meaning and context intended by the author, IMO.

 

[marks]

Years of research beginning with attempting to find proof of a premise that's false can do that to a person. Not meaning to minimize your work but just being honest.

Yes, let's be honest. You don't know me so you'll have to take my word for it. That's not me. I'm a lover of truth. That's why I became Christian in the first place. I've spent years examining every possible relevant verse to see what it was the Bible teaches about our salvation. I'll be happy to look through each one with you.

You impugne my motives, only because my conclusions don't match yours.

Much love!

 

[marks]

John 15:2 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Jesus said that a branch in Him that doesn't bear fruit is taken away that a branch in Him that does bear fruit is purged (pruned) in order "that it may bring forth more fruit"? They are both branches in Him, but it seems like you are trying to say otherwise. The difference between the two branches in Him is that one doesn't bear fruit and one does. The one that doesn't is taken away and the other is pruned in order to produce more fruit.

There are the branches that abide in Christ, and branches that do not abide in Christ. Of the branches that do abide in Christ, there are the unfruitful branches and the fruitful branches. The unfruitful branch is carried away by the Father. The fruitful branch is pruned/cleansed to produce more fruit.


The man (not branch) that does not abide in Christ is like a branch that is cast out, to be gathered and burned.
@Zao is life

Much love!

 

[Zao is life]

I'm a lover of truth. That's why I became Christian in the first place.

I believe you but I also believe me when I place myself and yourself in the same category of human beings whose minds and intellect have an interfering effect on the teaching that the Holy Spirit is giving us.

Just because I believe you are wrong (which I truly do - I don't disagree for the sake of debate) doesn't mean either you or I are necessarily correct.

But I'm also a lover of the truth and I truly do not believe that the way you are dissecting the passage is accurate.

 

[marks]

Better things than being "enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost" and having "tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come"? I don't think that is what verse 9 is referring to. I think it's referring to better things than falling away and not being able to be renewed again to repentance because of it since by doing that someone would "crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.".

The better things are regeneration, baptism in the Holy Spirit, becoming part of the body of Christ.

Much love!