Rev 3.10 PreTrib or PostTrib

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Spiritual Israelite

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Most are looking at it all wrong.

Tribulation is the wrath of God. To take the position of "post" or "pre" tribulation is self-centered, rather than Christ-centered. Either position is a denial that all tribulation--all of God's wrath was placed upon Christ at the cross.

As for "tribulation" there is no greater tribulation. To claim anything else--is a lie...propagated by Satan.
Tribulation is not just the wrath of God. It can refer to Satan's wrath and can refer to persecution and other trials and troubles that we go through in life.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
 

rebuilder 454

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Yes we disagree

The scripture clearly states (Behold I Come Quickly) hold fast that no man take thy crown in "Reward", then in Rev 22:12 the same phrase is used and you see the believers rewards are with the Lord, the very scripture itself denys your claim of a pre-trib rapture, it's the final judgement/rewards time

Verse 12 puts the icing on the cake in the words "Him That Overcometh", how does the believer overcome if their taken away in a pre-trib rapture, the simple basic context is a no brainer

We're not even dealing with Isaiahs very clear account on the earth's hour of temptation, and how the church is instructed to enter their dwellings

IMHO I believe many people see the very simple truth in scripture as presented, but the element of mans pride is the factor from admitting presented truth

Could you imagine how many people have written books on the subject matter, taught classes before thousands, to later be shown that they were completely wrong?

Revelation 3:10-12KJV
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12 Him that overcometh
will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
He gathers the Jewish main harvest in rev14:14.

Ahem....with a sickle in his hand.....DURING the trib.

Main harvest Gentile bride Is pretrib rapture.
( times of the Gentiles finished)
Where does "Times of the Gentiles finished" fit anything posttrib rapture?
 

rebuilder 454

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Seems to me (Behold I Come Quickly) refers to the future second coming and final judgement/rewards time, not a pre-trib rapture as claimed

Seems to me the hour of temptation won't fall upon the righteous saved who enter their dwellings and shut their doors

(Post Trib , At Second Coming)

The "Hour Of Temptation" is just prior to the Lord's second coming in the last day resurrection, your suggestion it's a pre-trib rapture is false

Below Isaiah mentions the coming resurrection of all the dead upon earth, (The Earth Shall Cast Out The Dead) 1 Cor 15:23-24

Isaiah then shows the Lord's instruction during the "Hour Of Temptation" coming upon the earth, enter your house shut the door and let the Lord's indignation be past, sorta like the passover in Egypt, simple and easy to understand

Isaiah 26:19-21KJV

19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

(Behold I Come Quickly) Is The Second Coming In Final Rewards, Not A Pre-Trib Rapture As Falsely Claimed

Revelation 3:10KJV

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Revelation 22:12KJV
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Jesus Is The Lord
Postrib doctrine paints itself in a corner on every component.
"Like manner" be comes "definately different manner"
"Times of the Gentiles completed"...is just small talk
Setting of the rapture is different.
One taken/left. Is erroneously changed to half the world is wicked, half is righteous.

In the Noah rapture example of Jesus, the wicked are told to be ready to be taken....dear Lord have mercy on these bible verse changers.
The 3 DISTINCT COMINGS Of Jesus are changed to "only one coming"
That one is just a blatant spitting on God's word

The 10 virgin parable needs components changed ...and the other rapture verses.

Just change it!!!!
Postrib rapture doctrine banner is :"hey just change it"
 
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Scott Downey

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"I will keep you out of the hour of testing"

The "hour of testing" marks a particular period of time in this space/time continuum. To be kept out of that hour means being gone from this continuum. Where else would we be?

Much love!

I can think of several other ways than a pretrib rapture. Death, shielded, hidden, or in a different part of the world.

And what is the 'hour of testing' we will be kept from exactly? This is written to the faithful church. Maybe it is only for them, as in that group of believers.

These things will simply happen, just wait for it and find out.
And the early church experienced much persecutions even unto death. And I get the impression reading revelation that will also happen to end time believers

The Faithful Church​

7 “And to the [e]angel of the church in Philadelphia write,

‘These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”: 8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, [f]and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name. 9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. 10 Because you have kept [g]My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 [h]Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. 12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
 

Scott Downey

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Another take on the meaning is, God will preserve their faith in the time of testing, so that they will not deny Him
To be spared the shame of having denied Christ at the judgment and rewards time for the believers.
Notice the word persevere is used in the verse. They have persevered already in their faith, being faithful.
And not everyone will have the same fate. Different circumstances will occur.

10 Because you have kept [g]My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

11 [h]Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. 12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
 

Truth7t7

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The 3 DISTINCT COMINGS Of Jesus are changed to "only one coming"
That one is just a blatant spitting on God's word
Your claim of 3 comings of Jesus is 100% false, Jesus will appear a second time unto salvation (The End)

Your pre-trib rapture is a false teaching started by John N. Darby 1830's and promoted to the world by C.I. Scofields 1909 reference Bible that maintained Darby's teachings in the margins, selling millions of copies worldwide "Deception"

Hebrews 9:28KJV
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
 
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ScottA

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Tribulation is not just the wrath of God. It can refer to Satan's wrath and can refer to persecution and other trials and troubles that we go through in life.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
Yes, there are nuances that may even be attributed to other sources. But over all such, is God, who created all the world: First the natural and afterward the spiritual, that we might pass from death to life everlasting.
 

Douggg

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Hebrews 9:28KJV
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
That verse is referring to the rapture because of the phrase "unto them that look for him". We Christians are to be looking for Jesus to come for us in resurrection/rapture.

It corresponds to 1Thessalonians5:9-11. The resurrection/rapture is in verse 10.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

God's wrath will begin when the day of the Lord begins, suddenly and unexpectedly, when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation described in 2Thessalonians2:4. So the resurrection/rapture will be some time before then.
 
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Truth7t7

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That verse is referring to the rapture because of the phrase "unto them that look for him". We Christians are to be looking for Jesus to come for us in resurrection/rapture.

It corresponds to 1Thessalonians5:9-11. The resurrection/rapture is in verse 10.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

God's wrath will begin when the day of the Lord begins, suddenly and unexpectedly, when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation described in 2Thessalonians2:4. So the resurrection/rapture will be some time before then.
False, it's referring to how many times Jesus will come to earth, your pre-trib rapture is a false fairy tale

Hebrews 9:28KJV
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
 
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Douggg

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False, it's referring to how many time Jesus will come to earth, your pre-trib rapture is a false fairy tale

Hebrews 9:28KJV
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Jesus at His Second Coming will appear to everyone on earth, not just to them who are looking for Him.

Hebrews 9:28 is referring to the rapture, not His Second Coming.

Also, the rapture may happen pre-70th week. Or it may not. But it has to happen before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation.


rapture timing chart b.jpg
 

Truth7t7

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Jesus at His Second Coming will appear to everyone on earth, not just to them who are looking for Him.

Hebrews 9:28 is referring to the rapture, not His Second Coming.

Also, the rapture may happen pre-70th week. Or it may not. But it has to happen before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation.


View attachment 63307
Your pre-trib rapture doesn't exist in scripture, post scripture to support your claim of a pre-trib rapture, I dont want to see charts, waiting
 
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Douggg

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You pre-trib rapture doesn't exist in scripture, post scripture to support your claim of a pre-trib rapture, I dont want to see charts, waiting
1Thessalonians5:9-11, the resurrection/rapture is in verse 10. Before the wrath of God begins when the day of the Lord begins, 1Thessalonians5:2, like a thief in the night.

The day of the Lord, called the day of Christ 2Thessalonians2:2, begins in 2Thessalonians2:4, with the transgression of desolation act by the Antichrist.

The resurrection/rapture will take place before the transgression of desolation act. Anytime between right now and then.
 

Marilyn C

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Can't remember who wrote this, it is just in my notes

The text of Rev 3:10 reads: o{ti ejthvrhsa" toVn lovgon th'" uJpomonh'" mou, kajgwv se thrhvsw ejk th'" w{ra" tou' peirasmou' th'" mellouvsh" e[rcesqai ejpiV th'" oijkoumevnh" o{lh" peiravsai touV" katoikou'nta" ejpiV th'" gh'" (“Because you have kept the word of my perseverance, I also shall keep you from the hour of testing which is about to come upon the whole inhabited world to test those who dwell upon the earth”). “Probably the most debated verse in the whole discussion about the time of the Church’s rapture is Revelation 3:10,” writes Robert Gundry in The Church and the Tribulation (p. 54). He, as well as many other posttribulationists, agrees that the verse is speaking about the promise of the rapture given to true believers (pp. 54-61; note also Rev 3:13 which applies this specific promise to the Philadelphian Christians to the “churches”).

The key issue in the debate between pretribulationists and posttribulationists is the temporal force of thrhvsw ek (“I will keep [you] out of”). Gundry believes that this refers to a posttribulational emergence of the saints: “As it is, ek lays all the emphasis on emergence, in this verse on the final, victorious outcome of the keeping-guarding” (ibid., p. 57). He bases his argument of a posttribulational rapture here squarely on grammar, stating, among other reasons: (1) “Essentially, ek, a preposition of motion concerning thought or physical direction, means out from within” (ibid., p. 55); and (2) “the preposition ek appears in John’s writings approximately 336 times, far more often than in the writings of any other NT author. There is not a single instance where the primary thought of emergence, or origin, cannot fit, indeed, does not best fit the thought of the context [italics mine]” (ibid., p. 57).

Such argumentation, however, though impressive at first glance, is in reality both too simplistic and a case of grammatical “tunnel vision.”

First, it is too simplistic in that Gundry argues that in John’s writings the primary thought of emergence or origin best fits every instance of ek. John Beverage, in his master’s thesis (“The Preposition ek in Johannine Literature,” Th.M. thesis, Dallas Seminary, 1953) has demonstrated that such is not the case. (Although it will certainly be granted that ejk normally has the force of origin or emergence, to suggest that this is the foremost idea in every Johannine instance is an overstatement. Note, for example, John 9:24; Rev 2:10; 3:9. Beverage breaks down the Johannine usage of ejk as follows: [1] to denote place or position, [2] to denote separation, [3] to denote origin, [4] to denote material or mass from which something is made or derived, [5] to denote cause, occasion, or instrument, [6] to denote the partitive use, and [7] to denote time.) (Note: It should be pointed out, however, that although Gundry is too simplistic in this first argument, even if he were entirely correct, the argument is quite beside the point and, in fact, irrelevant to the interpretation of Rev 3:10, as a critique of Gundry’s second argument will seek to demonstrate.)

Second, it is a case of semantic myopia in that by focusing only on the usage of ek, Gundry has overlooked the combined force of the whole construction. He claims that ek is essentially “a preposition of motion” (p. 55). Although this is generally true, if ejk is related to a noun or is governed by a non-motion verb (such as threvw), it will not necessarily imply motion. (By way of analogy, this can be seen with eij"—the directional opposite of ejk. eij" generally has the meaning of movement into from without. However, when it is used with a static verb, such as threvw, kavqhmai, eijmi, etc., the idea of motion is negated by the static nature of the verb [cf. for example, threvw eij" in Acts 25:4; kavqhmai eij" in Mark 13:3; and eijmi eij" in John 1:18].)1 The fact, then, that threvw, rather than a motion verb such as swv/zw, is used with ejk in Rev 3:10 argues against Gundry’s position on this text.2 By way of illustration, our idiom “Keep out of the reach of children” has exactly the same force to it as does the Greek threvw ek. Yet, when such instructions are printed on a bottle of medicine, a parent recognizes that he or she is not to let the medicine get into the reach of children. That is, the parent is to keep it in a position that is out of their reach. If the medicine bottle had said, “Take out of the reach of children” the implication would be entirely different (viz., it would presume that the bottle was already within the reach of children).

In summary, the posttribulational position in Rev 3:10, as articulated by Gundry, seems unlikely because (1) it assumes a simplistic (and etymological) force for the preposition ejk, and (2) it does not take into account the force of the total construction of verb + preposition. In order for John to have taught a posttribulational rapture in this verse, he would have had to change one of two elements: (1) either the verb (from a static verb to a verb of motion such swv/zw or lambavnw) or, (2) the preposition (from ek to diav [+ the genitive] or en).3

Conclusion

Does this therefore demonstrate a pretribulational rapture beyond any doubt? Of course not. For one thing, John 17:15 (the only precise grammatico-lexical parallel to Rev 3:10) needs to be wrestled with (something that has been done in the literature well enough). And the fact that there are no other exact parallels in biblical Greek makes for less than an iron-clad argument. For another, whether ‘the hour of tribulation’ refers to the actual time of the tribulation (though probable) needs to be established beyond all doubt. Further, we have not really addressed much contextually (including the parallel with ‘because you have kept the word’). Nevertheless, the basic point of this brief essay is to show that the overly facile attempt at solving this conundrum on the basis of grammar is inadequate. In the least, the grammatical argument is not on the side of posttribulationism, in spite of Gundry’s certitude.



1 Cf. also Wallace, Exegetical Syntax, “Introduction to Prepositions: Motion, State, Prepositions, and Verbs” wherein it is noted that “Stative verbs override the transitive force of prepositions. Almost always, when a stative verb is used with a transitive preposition, the preposition’s natural force is neutralized; all that remains is a stative idea.”
Hi KUWN,

God always does things for His purpose. So, we need to ask what is the purpose of the Body of Christ?

And also, what is God`s purpose for Israel and for the Nations?
 

Marilyn C

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1Thessalonians5:9-11, the resurrection/rapture is in verse 10. Before the wrath of God begins when the day of the Lord begins, 1Thessalonians5:2, like a thief in the night.

The day of the Lord, called the day of Christ 2Thessalonians2:2, begins in 2Thessalonians2:4, with the transgression of desolation act by the Antichrist.

The resurrection/rapture will take place before the transgression of desolation act. Anytime between right now and then.
Hi Douggg,

Actually, there are 3 `last Days` -

1. The Day of Christ - for building, maturing and catching away of the Body. (Phil. 1: 10)

2. The Day of the Lord (God Almighty in judgment) - bringing judgment upon the rebellious. (1 Thess. 5: 2 Joel 2: 1 & 2)

3. The Day of God - All delivered up to God. Eternity. (1 Cor. 15: 28 2 Peter 3: 12)
 

Douggg

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3. The Day of God - All delivered up to God. Eternity. (1 Cor. 15: 28 2 Peter 3: 12)
Hi Marilyn,

You have a good point regarding 2Peter3:12, the destruction of this present earth and its heavens, as The Day of God.

2Peter3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

To take place In Revelation 20:11-12 at the time of the great white throne judgment....

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
 
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Truth7t7

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1Thessalonians5:9-11, the resurrection/rapture is in verse 10. Before the wrath of God begins when the day of the Lord begins
Not one word in scripture below shows a pre-trib rapture, your imagination is working overtime, strike #1

1 Thessalonians 5:9-11KJV
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

1Thessalonians5:2, like a thief in the night.
The thief in the night, day of the Lord is when the Lord dissolves the heavens and earth by fire (The End) no pre-trib rapture seen there, strike #2

1 Thessalonians 5:2-3KJV
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
The day of the Lord, called the day of Christ 2Thessalonians2:2, begins in 2Thessalonians2:4, with the transgression of desolation act by the Antichrist.

The resurrection/rapture will take place before the transgression of desolation act. Anytime between right now and then.
The scripture below teaches signs that will be seen before the second coming, and it states the man of sin/antichrist will be revealed to the church on earth before this, no mention of a pre-trib rapture whatsoever, strike #3

Three Strikes Your "Out"!

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4KJV
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
 

Douggg

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Not one word in scripture below shows a pre-trib rapture,

1 Thessalonians 5:9-11KJV
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Are you saying that verse 10 is the resurrection/rapture event, but that it does not indicate a pre-70th week rapture (commonly called the pre-trib rapture) in any of those three verses ?

My rapture timing view is the Anytime Rapture View. Any time between right now and when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act described in 2Thessalonians2:4.

My view is that the rapture could happen pre-70th week. Or it may not. But the rapture has to happen before the transgression of desolation act by the Antichrist described in 2Thessalonians2:4.



rapture timing chart b.jpg
 

Douggg

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The thief in the night, day of the Lord is when the Lord dissolves the heavens and earth by fire (The End) no pre-trib rapture seen there.

1 Thessalonians 5:2-3KJV
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
The day of the Lord has segments to it.

2Peter3:10-12, speaks broadly that the day of the Lord begins like a thief in the night.

The segment that deals with destruction of this current earth and its heavens is called the day of God in verse 12 (which you left out). In my post #36, I cited that the day of God when this current earth and its heavens will be destroyed will take place at the time of the great white throne judgement.

2Peter3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
the day of the Lord.jpg
 
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WPM

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Can't remember who wrote this, it is just in my notes

The text of Rev 3:10 reads: o{ti ejthvrhsa" toVn lovgon th'" uJpomonh'" mou, kajgwv se thrhvsw ejk th'" w{ra" tou' peirasmou' th'" mellouvsh" e[rcesqai ejpiV th'" oijkoumevnh" o{lh" peiravsai touV" katoikou'nta" ejpiV th'" gh'" (“Because you have kept the word of my perseverance, I also shall keep you from the hour of testing which is about to come upon the whole inhabited world to test those who dwell upon the earth”). “Probably the most debated verse in the whole discussion about the time of the Church’s rapture is Revelation 3:10,” writes Robert Gundry in The Church and the Tribulation (p. 54). He, as well as many other posttribulationists, agrees that the verse is speaking about the promise of the rapture given to true believers (pp. 54-61; note also Rev 3:13 which applies this specific promise to the Philadelphian Christians to the “churches”).

The key issue in the debate between pretribulationists and posttribulationists is the temporal force of thrhvsw ek (“I will keep [you] out of”). Gundry believes that this refers to a posttribulational emergence of the saints: “As it is, ek lays all the emphasis on emergence, in this verse on the final, victorious outcome of the keeping-guarding” (ibid., p. 57). He bases his argument of a posttribulational rapture here squarely on grammar, stating, among other reasons: (1) “Essentially, ek, a preposition of motion concerning thought or physical direction, means out from within” (ibid., p. 55); and (2) “the preposition ek appears in John’s writings approximately 336 times, far more often than in the writings of any other NT author. There is not a single instance where the primary thought of emergence, or origin, cannot fit, indeed, does not best fit the thought of the context [italics mine]” (ibid., p. 57).

Such argumentation, however, though impressive at first glance, is in reality both too simplistic and a case of grammatical “tunnel vision.”

First, it is too simplistic in that Gundry argues that in John’s writings the primary thought of emergence or origin best fits every instance of ek. John Beverage, in his master’s thesis (“The Preposition ek in Johannine Literature,” Th.M. thesis, Dallas Seminary, 1953) has demonstrated that such is not the case. (Although it will certainly be granted that ejk normally has the force of origin or emergence, to suggest that this is the foremost idea in every Johannine instance is an overstatement. Note, for example, John 9:24; Rev 2:10; 3:9. Beverage breaks down the Johannine usage of ejk as follows: [1] to denote place or position, [2] to denote separation, [3] to denote origin, [4] to denote material or mass from which something is made or derived, [5] to denote cause, occasion, or instrument, [6] to denote the partitive use, and [7] to denote time.) (Note: It should be pointed out, however, that although Gundry is too simplistic in this first argument, even if he were entirely correct, the argument is quite beside the point and, in fact, irrelevant to the interpretation of Rev 3:10, as a critique of Gundry’s second argument will seek to demonstrate.)

Second, it is a case of semantic myopia in that by focusing only on the usage of ek, Gundry has overlooked the combined force of the whole construction. He claims that ek is essentially “a preposition of motion” (p. 55). Although this is generally true, if ejk is related to a noun or is governed by a non-motion verb (such as threvw), it will not necessarily imply motion. (By way of analogy, this can be seen with eij"—the directional opposite of ejk. eij" generally has the meaning of movement into from without. However, when it is used with a static verb, such as threvw, kavqhmai, eijmi, etc., the idea of motion is negated by the static nature of the verb [cf. for example, threvw eij" in Acts 25:4; kavqhmai eij" in Mark 13:3; and eijmi eij" in John 1:18].)1 The fact, then, that threvw, rather than a motion verb such as swv/zw, is used with ejk in Rev 3:10 argues against Gundry’s position on this text.2 By way of illustration, our idiom “Keep out of the reach of children” has exactly the same force to it as does the Greek threvw ek. Yet, when such instructions are printed on a bottle of medicine, a parent recognizes that he or she is not to let the medicine get into the reach of children. That is, the parent is to keep it in a position that is out of their reach. If the medicine bottle had said, “Take out of the reach of children” the implication would be entirely different (viz., it would presume that the bottle was already within the reach of children).

In summary, the posttribulational position in Rev 3:10, as articulated by Gundry, seems unlikely because (1) it assumes a simplistic (and etymological) force for the preposition ejk, and (2) it does not take into account the force of the total construction of verb + preposition. In order for John to have taught a posttribulational rapture in this verse, he would have had to change one of two elements: (1) either the verb (from a static verb to a verb of motion such swv/zw or lambavnw) or, (2) the preposition (from ek to diav [+ the genitive] or en).3

Conclusion

Does this therefore demonstrate a pretribulational rapture beyond any doubt? Of course not. For one thing, John 17:15 (the only precise grammatico-lexical parallel to Rev 3:10) needs to be wrestled with (something that has been done in the literature well enough). And the fact that there are no other exact parallels in biblical Greek makes for less than an iron-clad argument. For another, whether ‘the hour of tribulation’ refers to the actual time of the tribulation (though probable) needs to be established beyond all doubt. Further, we have not really addressed much contextually (including the parallel with ‘because you have kept the word’). Nevertheless, the basic point of this brief essay is to show that the overly facile attempt at solving this conundrum on the basis of grammar is inadequate. In the least, the grammatical argument is not on the side of posttribulationism, in spite of Gundry’s certitude.



1 Cf. also Wallace, Exegetical Syntax, “Introduction to Prepositions: Motion, State, Prepositions, and Verbs” wherein it is noted that “Stative verbs override the transitive force of prepositions. Almost always, when a stative verb is used with a transitive preposition, the preposition’s natural force is neutralized; all that remains is a stative idea.”
This nonsense is from Daniel B. Wallace.