Rev 3.10 PreTrib or PostTrib
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Davy
Well-Known Member
IF... you had actually studied your Old Testament history, which you reveal you have NOT done, then you'd know about previous times when God's Consuming Fire came down and burned things off this earth; and that without... actually destroying this earth.
But since you don't really study your Old Testament history, you cannot properly understand the future 2 Peter 3:10 event that happens on the day of Christ's future 2nd coming.
And even then, even without having studied the Old Testament prophets, you still ought to have heard brethren speaking or read about Christ returning back to this earth, per Acts 1:10-12.
No wonder the false prophets don't want you to study your Old Testament Scriptures, simply because the Old Testament prophets strongly testify of Christ's future return back to THIS EARTH, SHOWING HIS FUTURE REIGN WILL BE ON THIS EXISTING EARTH (like Zechariah 14 especially).
Thus the Revelation 20 Chapter agrees with the view of Christ's future Kingdom on earth over the nations on earth, which the Old Testament prophets were given. And that's why you are in confusion about when God's future new heavens and new earth time will be.
All of those issues can be resolved if a person realizes that the day of the Lord has segments to it.
yes, as in John 5
Honor the Father and the Son
16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, [d]and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. 19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
In my view, the DOTL involves an era of time rather than a single 24 hour day as Amils believe. I don't know if that equals segments in the way you are meaning it, though? I tend to think the DOTL begins with the seven vials full of the seven last plagues. And if I am correct, it would be absurd for anyone to think all 7 vials are only involving 24 hours or less.
Plus, if I am correct, it would be absurd for anyone to insist that Christ has already bodily returned as of vial 1, for example. You might argue that this can fit your view then, since your view has the DOTL occurring when Christ hasn't bodily return yet. Except it can't fit your view, since your view has the DOTL involving great tribulation. And that Matthew 24:29, for one, places the DOTL immediately after great tribulation. And not prior to the beginning of it nor during it instead.
Unlike Amils who mainly only go by what the NT says as opposed to what the OT and NT says combined, I mainly reason things according to the latter. You act as if I don't take Zechariah 14:16-19 to be meaning after Christ has already returned. You act as if I don't take Zechariah 14:4-5 to be involving Christ's return in the end of this age. You act as if I don't take Zechariah 14:4 as the fulfillment of---shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven(Acts 1:11). After all, you pretty much implied that I'm ignorant of any prophecies in the OT that support that the millennium follows the 2nd coming because I have not studied the OT.
No, I am not meaning the segments are "equal" in time duration.
It is just that once started, the day of the Lord will have segments, one following the other, of different prophecy fulfillment, that ultimately the day of the Lord continues for eternity.
The day of the Lord will have one segment known as the great tribulation. The day of the Lord continues after the great tribulation with Jesus's second coming, then with the millennium rule of Jesus on this present earth. Everything fits.
LOL. How many times do we need to cover this? And, how many times are you going to avoid the obvious? Because you do not believe in corroboration you can make the Bible say whatever you want.
I have asked you this question for years and you have avoided it for years: Could you please do a detailed comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20?
Revelation 20 is a dumping ground for all types of events and texts that are totally unrelated. Your failure to corroborate any Premil tenet in Zech 14 is damning.
There is rarely a theological argument presented by Premils explaining their position on Revelation 20 that does not submit Zechariah 14 as supporting evidence for their position. Premils talk as if these two texts fit together neatly to support their viewpoint. The only problem is, careful study of both will find there is no correlation between the detail in Zechariah 14 and that in Revelation 20. Trying to associate one with the other is like putting a square peg into a round whole. The detail is completely different.
First of all, Zechariah 14 makes absolutely no allusion to a future 1,000 years after the second coming, or does Zechariah 14 compare with any of the detail outlined in Revelation 20 (start, middle or finish). The detail occurring at the end of Revelation 20 only compares with the many passages relating to Christ’s one final future all-consummating Second Advent – there we see the destruction of every enemy of Christ and righteousness.
A helpful pointer that should aid the open-minded reader dissect the book of Zechariah is the phrase “in that day.” It connects the whole book together. It is mentioned 20 times in this Old Testament prophecy. It is extremely notable that reference after reference to “in that day” actually refers to the 1st Advent. Zechariah 14 also describes AD 70 and the spread of the Gospel to the darkened nations.
AD 70 is referenced in Zechariah 13 and 14 but generally it is a symbolic looking at Christ's ministry. There are a mixture of events relating to the life and ministry of Christ, Jerusalem's judgment (AD 70), the going out of the Gospel to the Gentiles. Notwithstanding, these are all tied together in Christ – and cannot be divorced one from another. Jerusalem was destroyed because of their rejection of Christ. The Gentiles came against the city, but the Gospel in turn went out among the Gentiles with great success.
Second, as you study the New Testament you see that the wicked are all destroyed when Jesus comes, this disallows the placing of this after the second coming. There will be no mortals or no sinners to populate the new earth, what is more, they are prohibited from inheriting it (Matthew 25:34 &25:46, 1 Corinthians 6:9, and 1 Corinthians 15:50).
Thirdly, the keeping of the Judaic sacrificial system has been eternally abolished (see Galatians 4:9-10, Colossians 2:14, 16, 20-22 ). Many of the place names in Jerusalem don't exist anymore. Localized worship in a brick temple in Jerusalem has gone forever. We now worship God in spirit and in truth John 4:21).
Fourthly, while the prophet Zechariah uses Old Testament vernacular, he seems to be looking forward to a brighter and better day. He is anticipating the coming Messiah, a new order and a final sacrifice for sin. He is looking to a day where the nations will experience the favor of God.
Zechariah is difficult to decipher because it is written in a type of apocalyptic form, which involves typical contains a mixture of literal and cryptic language. and must be understood in the symbolic way in which it is written.
You keep saying stuff like this yet you have failed to substantiate this for years? This is all your own private interpretation to support the error of Premillennialism. Your MO is to spiritualize everything that exposes your teaching. Nothing is ever safe with you. You twist text after text that interferes with your error. You have no credible hermeneutics.
You build your house on sand and then you wonder why it crumbles every time it is tested.
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Explain why I would be wrong about some or all of the following?
A) Great tribulation and the wrath of God are not the same thing.
B) Great tribulation and the great wrath of satan are the same thing.
C) The DOTL and great tribulation are not the same thing.
D) The DOTL and the wrath of God are the same thing.
For example.
The NT says this.
Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
The OT says this.
Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand
Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Amils, such as yourself, only go by what the NT says here rather than what the OT and the NT combined says here. IOW, per Amil, regardless what Zechariah 14 says, what the NT says trumps it rather than finding a way to square both testaments instead of pitting one testament against the other. As if one testament is more holy writ than the other one. Or as if one testament is holy writ, the other isn't.
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A) Great tribulation and the wrath of God are not the same thing.
B) Great tribulation and the great wrath of satan are the same thing.
The Great tribulation includes both the wrath of God and the wrath of Satan.
C) The DOTL and great tribulation are not the same thing.
D) The DOTL and the wrath of God are the same thing.
The DOTL includes the Great Tribulation during which God's wrath will be poured out.
There is absolutely no correlation here. This is a localized battle in AD70. Obviously, there are survivors after this, whereas Revelation 19 is a global end-time destruction. No one survives.
Revelation 19:11-21 outlines: “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant [Gr. loipoy or remaining ones or those left behind] were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”
Please see that the wicked are destroyed by the sword of His voice. This is complete wholesale total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!
This passage powerfully and solemnly reveals the full extent of the devastation that is to be focused upon the wicked on the day of God’s wrath. In perfect keeping with the rest of Scripture, this narrative graphically shows us that the destruction that occurs will be immediate, absolute and total and that, at this stage – after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7) – everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to fully impress the enormity and all-inclusive nature of this feast.
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You have two strings to your guitar and they are not in sync. They make a monotonous sound. You are obsessed with Zechariah 14 and Revelation 19, yet you cannot contrast these two to support any of your main tenets. That's because they do not correlate.
The Day of Christ -
`He who begun a good work in you will complete it until the Day of Jesus Christ.....that you may approve the things that are excellent, that you may be sincere and without offense till the Day of Christ.` (Phil. 1: 6 - 10)
This period is not only the first in chronological order of fulfillment but is the greatest in importance in the Divine predestinations. each reference relates entirely and exclusively to the Body of Christ, in the specific time-slot identified with the coming of the Lord jesus Christ. it signifies completion of the highest of God`s purposes, the supreme expression of Divine revelation. All other expressions of His ordinations are dependent on its completion. (Heb. 11: 40)
The Day of the LORD.
One of the major themes in the Word of God concerns the prophetic truth relative to a time of international crisis in the last days. A time completely without precedent; a time utterly dissimilar, by its concentration and extent to anything previously known in the history of the world. This period is consistently referred to as `The Day of the LORD,` and refers to that period coinciding with God dealing again with Israel and the nations subsequent to the Rapture of the Body of Chrost 91 Thess. 5: 2 - 9); and terminating with the destruction of the heaven and the earth. (2 Peter 3: 10)
Invariably scripture connects this time with tribulation and suffering. Zephaniah (1: 14 - 18) provides one of the most concise descriptive accounts, as being more severe than any other in history. This is confirmed by Jeremiah (30: 7) Daniel (12: 1) and Joel (2: 2). Jesus Himself warned "For there shall be a great tribulation such as was not since the beginning to this time, no nor ever shall be." (Matt. 24: 21) John succinctly epitomises it as `the Day of the wrath of God." (Rev. 6: 15 - 17) Greek `orge` expresses wrath, anger, vengeance with connotations of punishment. To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity. (Isa. 26: 21)
The time-slot has been set by Jesus as just prior to His return; and He specifically links it to the `Abomination of desolation` spoken of by Daniel the Prophet (Matt. 24: 15 - 30). Daniel specifies this event to be fulfilled during the seven years of gentile Domination (Dan. 9: 24 - 27) It is thus evident and conclusive that the great Tribulation and the seven years run concurrent.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Irrelevant, simply because Premills also can agree that the "day of the Lord" phrase can represent both the last day (24hr. day) of this world when Jesus' future 2nd coming happens, and also can include the time length of a 'day to God', which Peter described in 2 Peter 3:8 as a thousand years to us. And even further, Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20, that 'day to God' idea, can represent the 7th Day, a Day of Rest, of a total of 7,000 years, with 6,000 years already past history of the world so far today, like God's 6 Days of creation, and then He rested on the 7th Day (Isaiah 11:10 and Hebrews 4 actually symbolically point to that future 'day' of rest in Christ's future Kingdom after His return).
There's no reason for you to assume I mean all kinds of 'other' ideas about Scripture when I speak of a Bible Scripture as written, unless you are trying to create consternation against that Scripture so as to try and make it look like I'm saying something I am not.
If you are going to discuss Bible Scripture with me, the first requirement is that you actually stick with the actual Bible Scripture 'as written', instead of throwing irrelevant ideas into it.
The 2 Peter 3:10 verse defines the time when the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night". So it's obvious you missed... that point of the Bible Scripture, including with Apostle Paul saying the same thing in 1 Thessalonians 5:2.
And per Rev.16:15, within the 6th Vial timing, Lord Jesus warned the Church that He comes "as a thief". Lord Jesus even gave that as a thief metaphor in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13 to show how the event of His future coming will be a SURPRISE upon the deceived. So HOW... could that be about a time period of the length covering all 7 Vials?
What is actually 'absurd'... is how you are not even comprehending the basic Bible Scripture 'as written' before you try to understand it.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Yeah, of course I noticed that point in red. No need to tell me, I know what amills do.
If you believe what amill wants... you to believe, then you HAVE... to try and reject that Zechariah 14 Scripture which is about Christ's future return, to this earth, AND... His reign over the wicked and unsaved nations. How else are you gonna' accept amill's false theory that on the day of Christ's return He then starts the new heavens and a new earth with all the unsaved destroyed?
Maybe, just maybe, you don't yet really understand all the non-Biblical theories that the amill position promotes.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
This is utter nonsense. The day of the Lord and the day of Christ are used synonymously and interchangeably in scripture.
1 Corinthians 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jesus is the Lord, so the day of the Lord and the day of Christ are the same thing and it can also be called "the day of our Lord Jesus Christ".
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