HIDDEN IN PLAIN SIGHT: Why I believe this about the timing of the NHNE

[WPM]

Duplicity refers to dishonest behavior, particularly acting in bad faith and pretending to have one set of intentions while acting under the influence of another. It implies a hidden agenda or double-dealing, with a contradictory doubleness of thought, speech, or action. Essentially, it means being deceptive or disingenuous.

DUPLICITY Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
May 22, 2025 — : contradictory doubleness of thought, speech, or action. ... especially : the belying of one's true intentions by dec...
Merriam-Webster

Duplicity - Definition, Meaning & Synonyms - Vocabulary.com
Definitions of duplicity. noun. acting in bad faith; deception by pretending to entertain one set of intentions while acting under...
Vocabulary.com
Word of the Day: Duplicity - Merriam-Webster
Aug 23, 2023 — Duplicity is a formal word that refers to dishonest behavior meant to trick or deceive someone. //Essentially, it means being deceptive or disingenuous.

Merriam-Webster

I think you picked the perfect word to describe what he is doing to a T. He could prove us all wrong by showing how his position is still true in light of what I argued. But he can't do that unless he takes on my post first and then proves that if a Gentile gets graffed into the good olive, that since this equals saved, but if this same Gentile were to get cutoff from the good olive tree, this means this Gentile was never saved to begin with, thus NOSAS is not Biblical, only OSAS is Biblical. Only an obvious plain as day deceiver could or would possibly argue that for a Gentile to be graffed into the good olive tree means saved. But if this same Gentile is ever cutoff from the good olive tree after having been graffed in, this means this Gentile was never saved to begin with. That this then means only OSAS is Biblical, NOSAS isn't.

More name-calling and more avoidance. You have to! That is what you do when you have nothing.

 

[WPM]

Assuming one of us is right, that means the one that is right, no counter arguments can trump it. Assuming you think you are the one correct here, prove to the rest of us that the post I submitted does not trump what you submitted.

LOL. Practice what you preach! Address what you initially responded to, avoided and diverted from.

 

[Zao is life]

Checkmate!

This is why Amil is growing on these forums. Premil has no answer to the facts! Keep it up! You are doing more to promote Amil than I can do.

LOL. Amil is growing on these forums because most Premils have realized that debating with an Amil is as bad as Paul (Premil) trying to get the Pharisees (Amil) to understand that a fisherman (Peter) understood what they misunderstood and could correctly interpret the scriptures that they misinterpreted - and hence, could and did and was correcting them.

 

[Zao is life]

LOL. Practice what you preach! Address what you initially responded, avoided and diverted from.

I think it's time you learned to address the refutations others bring against all your many assertions based on your own misinterpretations of the scriptures you post, and to practice what you preach :) because you never do address any of said refutations of your erroneous interpretations, i.e misinterpretations. But you expect others to just continue reading your long posts because "that's fair".

 

[WPM]

LOL. Amil is growing on these forums because most Premils have realized that debating with an Amil is as bad as Paul (Premil) trying to get the Pharisees (Amil) to understand that a fisherman (Peter) understood what they misunderstood and could correctly interpret the scriptures that they misinterpreted - and hence, could and did and was correcting them.

You talk some nonsense. You're truly on the ropes. You have no answer to the truth. That is why you avoid it. If you had a rebuttal you would give it.

 

[WPM]

I think it's time you learned to address the refutations others bring against all your many assertions based on your own misinterpretations of the scriptures you post, and to practice what you preach :) because you never do address any of said refutations of your erroneous interpretations, i.e misinterpretations. But you expect others to just continue reading your long posts because "that's fair".

Both of you avoided my posts. You have to. They expose your position.

 

[Zao is life]

Only an obvious plain as day deceiver could or would possibly argue that for a Gentile to be graffed into the good olive tree means saved. But if this same Gentile is ever cutoff from the good olive tree after having been graffed in, this means this Gentile was never saved to begin with. That this then means only OSAS is Biblical, NOSAS isn't.

Is your position that if someone is grafted into the olive tree but is cut off after being grafted in, that he wasn't saved to begin with?

If so, I disagree. Jesus did not say that the seed sown on stony ground did not believe in Him. He said His Word was immediately received with joy but the seed did not take deep enough root in the person's soul.

How deep an individual ensures the Word of God takes root in his soul is a matter of individual choice (abiding in the Vine), not a matter of whether or not the death and resurrection of Christ is powerful enough to save anyone and everyone who believes in Him.

 

[Zao is life]

You talk some nonsense. You're truly on the ropes. You have no answer to the truth. That is why you avoid it. If you had a rebuttal you would give it.

Why do you always flood threads with posts containing the above type of gibberish and your lists of false statements, implications, self-back-patting and ..

It's not the way grown ups discuss the Bible, you know?

 

[Davidpt]

Is your position that if someone is grafted into the olive tree but is cut off after being grafted in, that he wasn't saved to begin with?

No, that is not my position. I am arguing that for a Gentile to be graffed into the good olive tree equals saved. Therefore. just like Jews that were cutoff from the good olive tree equals no salvation for them, the same is true for when and if it happens to a Gentile. The Jews have an apparent advantage though, but not really when you think about it. They can be graffed back in, only if they choose to believe that Christ is who He said He is.

As to Gentiles it's a bit different. In order to be graffed into the good olive tree to begin with, they have to be believers first. But if they get cutoff after having already believed, they can't get graffed in again since they were already believers to begin with. IOW, they can't get graffed into the good olive tree twice for the same reasons. The Jews that were cutoff were cutoff because of disbelief. They were never believers to begin with. The same can't be said about Gentiles that get cutoff from the good olive tree after having been graffed in, that they were never believers to begin with. Ummm...Explain how they initially got graffed in by bypassing having to be believers first, is what those OSAS proponents need to explain then.

The only way to be part of the good olive tree at this point is through belief in Christ. A Gentile already has belief in Christ if he or she is graffed into the good olive tree. But if that same Gentile gets cutoff, does that then equal this Gentile no longer believes Christ is who He says is is? Of course not. How do they get graffed back into the good olive tree if they are cutoff? They can't. It's impossible since the only way to be graffed into the good olive tree is through belief, something they already did initially. Therefore, for a Gentile to be cutoff from the good olive tree after having been graffed in does not equal they were never saved to begin with. Nor does it equal OSAS in their case. It equals NOSAS in their case, where deceivers who place some of their doctrines above the truth, such as @WPM, would have us believe that only OSAS is Biblical, NOSAS isn't.

I do not want to be right about any of this, yet how can I not be, or how can you not be since you and I are pretty much on the same page in regards to some of this since your position also is that NOSAS is Biblical?

Where we are not entirely on the same page, at least not yet anyway, is how you are applying some of this to Revelation 20:7-9.

 

[Zao is life]

No, that is not my position. I am arguing that for a Gentile to be graffed into the good olive tree equals saved. Therefore. just like Jews that were cutoff from the good olive tree equals no salvation for them, the same is true for when and if it happens to a Gentile. The Jews have an apparent advantage though, but not really when you think about it. They can be graffed back in, only if they choose to believe that Christ is who He said He is.

As to Gentiles it's a bit different. In order to be graffed into the good olive tree to begin with, they have to be believers first. But if they get cutoff after having already believed, they can't get graffed in again since they were already believers to begin with. IOW, they can't get graffed into the good olive tree twice for the same reasons. The Jews that were cutoff were cutoff because of disbelief. They were never believers to begin with. The same can't be said about Gentiles that get cutoff from the good olive tree after having been graffed in, that they were never believers to begin with. Ummm...Explain how they initially got graffed in by bypassing having to be believers first, is what those OSAS proponents need to explain then.

The only way to be part of the good olive tree at this point is through belief in Christ. A Gentile already has belief in Christ if he or she is graffed into the good olive tree. But if that same Gentile gets cutoff, does that then equal this Gentile no longer believes Christ is who He says is is? Of course not. How do they get graffed back into the good olive tree if they are cutoff? They can't. It's impossible since the only way to be graffed into the good olive tree is through belief, something they already did initially. Therefore, for a Gentile to be cutoff from the good olive tree after having been graffed in does not equal they were never saved to begin with. Nor does it equal OSAS in their case. It equals NOSAS in their case, where deceivers who place some of their doctrines above the truth, such as @WPM, would have us believe that only OSAS is Biblical, NOSAS isn't.

I do not want to be right about any of this, yet how can I not be, or how can you not be since you and I are pretty much on the same page in regards to some of this since your position also is that NOSAS is Biblical?

Where we are not entirely on the same page, at least not yet anyway, is how you are applying some of this to Revelation 20:7-9.

So this is what I see, which I see both because of what Adam did, AND because of knowing how - given the 'right' motive - people who know the truth can choose to believe a lie despite knowing the truth (and act according to their choice).

Let's say it's post-return of Christ and post-the resurrection. I do not believe in the notion of "OSAS because now I'm IMMORTAL". This is why:

Adam was also immortal, and when he chose to believe the lie despite knowing the truth, his body that had until then been immortal began to decay - he lost his immortality.

(Bear in mind that the lie began with the words, "You will NOT surely die").

It was easy for someone who was still immortal (living in a body that did not decay at the time), to believe the lie. Adam only sinned once he believed the lie, not before - and he sinned BECAUSE he believed the lie. Had he NOT believed the lie, he would not have felt 'comfotable' with going ahead with eating the fruit forbidden him, because if he had NOT believed the lie, he would have known that despite his immortality, he would die if he ate of the forbidden fruit.

I don't believe it will ever be any different. Why?

- because the immortality of the created human being (to be alive [zao] forever) will still be dependent on the Spirit of Christ in him giving him eternal life [zoe].

The Spirit is the river of life [zoe] - the source of eternal life - the tree of life, which is the Word of God.

In other words, the source of life [zoe] (the Spirit) will still be the supply of eternal life [zoe] to the person who is experiencing being alive [zao] forever in a created body that does not decay and therefore will not die - the immortal body does not decay and die because it has the eternal life-supply of the Spirit abiding in it (i.e in the soul of the created person abiding in the body).

Only God possesses eternal life in Himself. Only Christ possesses eternal life in Himself and this is why scripture tells us He alone possesses immortality (in Himself).

Our bodies decay and die now even though we have the Spirit of Christ in us giving us eternal life IN Christ, because we have not yet experienced the resurrection of our bodies (which is already ours in Christ but is the hope that it still not seen / experienced, though we know it will be).

I do not have immortality for a created human being (us) conflated with the eternal life given by God IN Christ which is the life-supply needed for a created human being to experience being alive forever in a body that does not decay. Adam's body began to decay because he sinned and lost his access to the tree of life / river of life that was the life-supply of his immortality.

The third-last chapter of the Bible is the conclusion of what began then, which we read about in the third chapter of the Bible; and it began when Satan was permitted to declare to Adam: "You will NOT surely die."

Adam chose to believe the lie though he knew the truth, and so it was rebellion against God on the part of a human being who until then, was immortal.

It also ended the sabbath-rest of God.

A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE FIRST TIME AND THE LAST TIME

The first time mankind rebelled against God, God caused mercy to be introduced in the announcement of a Savior who would undo all that was done - through his own sacrifice for the sin, His death and resurrection, and the power of His resurrection - deliverance FOR US not only from sin, but also from the first death that came upon all mankind,

and that fist death is the death of the body. Amil doctrine has the death of the body conflated with 'spiritual death' which it sees as OUR loss of the eternal life-supply of the Spirit - but spiritual death is not something that happened to anyone born after Adam's death. What Amil calls 'our' spiritual 'death' is actually just the absence of eternal life.

But the second time (and last time) that Satan will be permitted to deceive immortals, the sin committed by those who rebel will result in a different death - a permnant death called "the lake of fire" and "the second death" - which is also the destruction of death.

I believe immortals - not those who overcame when faced with martyrdom, but many immortals - out of the total population of humans who will be resurrected (1 Thess 4:16 together with those seen in verse 17) will be deceived by Satan into believing that because they are immortal, they will not surely die - just like happened to Adam - but there will be the remnant in "the camp of the saints". The rest will find themselves being destroyed soul and body - immortal body and all - by the fire coming down from God out of heaven - because they chose to believe the lie even though they knew the truth. The second death will receive its second installment at that point - the beast and false prophet had already been thrown alive into the lake of fire.

God is able to destroy both soul and body in gehenna, He created us.

 

[WPM]

Why do you always flood threads with posts containing the above type of gibberish and your lists of false statements, implications, self-back-patting and ..

It's not the way grown ups discuss the Bible, you know?

More projection. More avoidance. More insults. That is all we get in response to the truth.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Probably most Christians know that your interpretation of the verses you post above is just false. And you base the rest of your post upon a false assumption about the the saints being raptured before the tribulation

So there's not much anyone can to to help you to see your fallacy. You have to see it yourself.

I have been a preacher called unto prophecy bent for 40 years, just like every other message board guy who thinks they have all the answers and never do, you just dodged all the points about how those people in Rev. 4:4 has all the gifts PROMISED to those in Rev; 2:10, 3:5 and 3:21, and whereas when you cited other scriptures to point out what this fact meant, NOW because it mandates a Pre Trib. Rapture, you have to back track LOL, I see this every day.

No. This is you mocking God and asserting that God will mock "those who were left behind after the rapture".

Need to back track brother. If you can't argue a point solidly, just skip all the drama.

 

[WPM]

I have been a preacher called unto prophecy bent for 40 years, just like every other message board guy who thinks they have all the answers and never do, you just dodged all the points about how those people in Rev. 4:4 has all the gifts PROMISED to those in Rev; 2:10, 3:5 and 3:21, and whereas when you cited other scriptures to point out what this fact meant, NOW because it mandates a Pre Trib. Rapture, you have to back track LOL, I see this every day.


Need to back track brother. If you can't argue a point solidly, just skip all the drama.

Where is your rapture in Rev 4?

 

[Davidpt]

So this is what I see, which I see both because of what Adam did, AND because of knowing how - given the 'right' motive - people who know the truth can choose to believe a lie despite knowing the truth (and act according to their choice).

Let's say it's post-return of Christ and post-the resurrection. I do not believe in the notion of "OSAS because now I'm IMMORTAL". This is why:

Adam was also immortal, and when he chose to believe the lie despite knowing the truth, his body that had until then been immortal began to decay - he lost his immortality.

(Bear in mind that the lie began with the words, "You will NOT surely die").

It was easy for someone who was still immortal (living in a body that did not decay at the time), to believe the lie. Adam only sinned once he believed the lie, not before - and he sinned BECAUSE he believed the lie. Had he NOT believed the lie, he would not have felt 'comfotable' with going ahead with eating the fruit forbidden him, because if he had NOT believed the lie, he would have known that despite his immortality, he would die if he ate of the forbidden fruit.

I don't believe it will ever be any different. Why?

- because the immortality of the created human being (to be alive [zao] forever) will still be dependent on the Spirit of Christ in him giving him eternal life [zoe].

The Spirit is the river of life [zoe] - the source of eternal life - the tree of life, which is the Word of God.

In other words, the source of life [zoe] (the Spirit) will still be the supply of eternal life [zoe] to the person who is experiencing being alive [zao] forever in a created body that does not decay and therefore will not die - the immortal body does not decay and die because it has the eternal life-supply of the Spirit abiding in it (i.e in the soul of the created person abiding in the body).

Only God possesses eternal life in Himself. Only Christ possesses eternal life in Himself and this is why scripture tells us He alone possesses immortality (in Himself).

Our bodies decay and die now even though we have the Spirit of Christ in us giving us eternal life IN Christ, because we have not yet experienced the resurrection of our bodies (which is already ours in Christ but is the hope that it still not seen / experienced, though we know it will be).

I do not have immortality for a created human being (us) conflated with the eternal life given by God IN Christ which is the life-supply needed for a created human being to experience being alive forever in a body that does not decay. Adam's body began to decay because he sinned and lost his access to the tree of life / river of life that was the life-supply of his immortality.

The third-last chapter of the Bible is the conclusion of what began then, which we read about in the third chapter of the Bible; and it began when Satan was permitted to declare to Adam: "You will NOT surely die."

Adam chose to believe the lie though he knew the truth, and so it was rebellion against God on the part of a human being who until then, was immortal.

It also ended the sabbath-rest of God.

A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE FIRST TIME AND THE LAST TIME

The first time mankind rebelled against God, God caused mercy to be introduced in the announcement of a Savior who would undo all that was done - through his own sacrifice for the sin, His death and resurrection, and the power of His resurrection - deliverance FOR US not only from sin, but also from the first death that came upon all mankind,

and that fist death is the death of the body. Amil doctrine has the death of the body conflated with 'spiritual death' which it sees as OUR loss of the eternal life-supply of the Spirit - but spiritual death is not something that happened to anyone born after Adam's death. What Amil calls 'our' spiritual 'death' is actually just the absence of eternal life.

But the second time (and last time) that Satan will be permitted to deceive immortals, the sin committed by those who rebel will result in a different death - a permnant death called "the lake of fire" and "the second death" - which is also the destruction of death.

I believe immortals - not those who overcame when faced with martyrdom, but many immortals - out of the total population of humans who will be resurrected (1 Thess 4:16 together with those seen in verse 17) will be deceived by Satan into believing that because they are immortal, they will not surely die - just like happened to Adam - but there will be the remnant in "the camp of the saints". The rest will find themselves being destroyed soul and body - immortal body and all - by the fire coming down from God out of heaven - because they chose to believe the lie even though they knew the truth. The second death will receive its second installment at that point - the beast and false prophet had already been thrown alive into the lake of fire.

God is able to destroy both soul and body in gehenna, He created us.

and so shall we ever be with the Lord(meaning the dead in Christ that rise first and those still alive and remaining when He returns)1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

Can you show how your view does not contradict this part--and so shall we ever be with the Lord? Ever is a long time, it literally means forever. You of course already know it means that. Except, logically, some of them in verse 16 and 17 can't be with Him forever if after they are raised Revelation 20:9 is their fate.

Something else I have to wonder, the fact you keep saying Adam did what he did because he believed the lie. If he believed the lie that should mean he was deceived then. Which then contradicts 1 Timothy 2:14 if so.

Maybe the reason Adam did what he did was not because he too believed the lie, but maybe because he loved his wife so much that, in his mind at the time, if she's going down, he's going down with her?

In my mind, if Adam believed the lie that ye shall not die, that means he too was deceived. Except he wasn't deceived, yet he did what he did, regardless. Maybe it had something to do with love in his case rather than he too believing the lie? Think about it like this maybe. Christ gave up His life for His bride, the church. Adam gave up his life for his bride, Eve. Neither Adam nor Christ were deceived when they did these things. Christ then restores what Adam gave up, meaning He restores his life. Not only his life but his wife's life as well, plus everyone else since the beginning of time that ends up saved in the end.

 

[Davidpt]

I have been a preacher called unto prophecy bent for 40 years, just like every other message board guy who thinks they have all the answers and never do

How do you see that working out, for example, if there is also another preacher called unto prophecy bent for 40 years, except this preacher is concluding post trib not pretrib? Now all of a sudden years of experience is not that relevant after all. Because if things like that prove things, everyone with all these years of experience would at least be coming to the same conclusions about these things, not polar opposite conclusions instead.

 

[Zao is life]

Can you show how your view does not contradict this part--and so shall we ever be with the Lord (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)?

Adam would have ever been with the Lord had he not rebelled against the commandment.

God has no beginning. Only God possesses eternal life in Himself. He existed from everlasting and exists to everlasting.

What has no beginning cannot have an end. It is not possible.

"The Logos ("Word") of God was in the beginning with God. In Him was life [zōḗ], and the life [zōḗ] is the light of men." (John 1:2 & 4).

But we are part of the creation. We are the descendants of created human beings. We had a beginning. Only if we possessed eternal life in ourselves could that which had a beginning never have an ending.

What happened to Adam is PROOF of the fact that If the created human being suffers the loss of the life of God which is being continually given to it in the Word of God, it cannot remain immortal. The Son of God alone possesses His immortality in that way.

What Adam did is also PROOF of the fact that what has a beginning CAN have an end - if it chooses to rebel against God and suffers the loss of the eternal life it has been given in the Word of God which created it.

THE RIVER OF LIFE FLOWS CONTINUALLY

Christ compared the (eternal) life which God possesses in Himself to a river of life and to living water which flows continually. God is always becoming. The life of God is not "static" living water. It must be given to us continually in Christ, and we must drink of the living water continually in order to maintain the eternal life which exists only in God, which only God and the Son of God has in Himself.

The lie told first to Eve which she repeated to Adam was "You will NOT surely die".

Adam and Eve were immortal BUT they were CREATED human beings which UNLIKE GOD, had a beginning. What has a beginning CAN have an end. Immortality for created human beings does not mean we have become our own Creator.

"He (Christ) alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen." (1 Timothy 6:15-16)

"For as the Father hath life [zōḗ] in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life [zōḗ] in himself." (John 5:26).

"I am the First and the Last, and the Living [zao] One, and I became dead [nekros],and behold, I am alive [zao] to the ages of the ages, Amen. And I have the keys of hades and of death." (Revelation 1:17-18).

The source of the immortality of a created human being will always be the eternal life given to it by God.

"In Him (God) we live | are alive [zao], and move, and have our being; For we are also his offspring." (Acts 17:28).

Human beings were created in the image and likeness of God. Does that mean that we can be like God, having eternal life in ourselves and thus possessing our own immortality?

"The serpent said to the woman, "Surely you will not die, for God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will open and you will be like divine beings who know good and evil." (Genesis 3:4-5).

Does the following mean that we will be like Christ (having eternal life in ourselves and hence possessing our own immortality)?:

1 John 3:2
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

We will never be like Him in the sense of possessing eternal life in ourselves just because God has given us eternal life IN HIM. If that were possible then we would have become our own Creator - and this would be "just because through HIS resurrection our dead bodies will be quickened and raised, and through HIS life that is given to us IN HIM, following the resurrection of our dead bodies, we will be immortal".

We are all the descendants of Adam and Eve. Created human beings. We do not become our own Creator and the source of our own immortality derived from "our own "eternal life that we possess in ourselves when we have been resurrected from the dead.

Something else I have to wonder, the fact you keep saying Adam did what he did because he believed the lie. If he believed the lie that should mean he was deceived then. Which then contradicts 1 Timothy 2:14 if so.

IMO Adam is at the very least just as responsible as Eve (if not more) - because the commandment not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and the warning that if he did he would surely die, Adam received directly from God. Genesis records the creation of Eve only after this. She would have learned the commandment from her husband.

The serpent did not approach Adam saying, "Has God INDEED said" and then misquote what God said - because Adam knew exactly what God had said, because God had spoken to him directly. When the serpent asked Eve the question and then contradicted God, he was attempting to plant other seeds in her mind - that possibly Adam had misunderstood what God said and did not know what he was talking about, and it was Adam who had misquoted the commandment when he passed it onto Eve - or even worse, that Adam had lied to her - or even worse, that God had lied to Adam.

But Adam knew what the Word of God was and he knew that what the serpent said was false doctrine. Had he wanted to he could have mediated for Eve between Eve and God, and received life for her in that way. God was able because nothing is impossible for God. But the notion that he would become like a divine being (i.e like God Himself), and have the knowledge that God had forbidden him, was what motivated him.

IMO Adam chose to believe the false doctrine - just like those who choose to believe false doctrines today. In many cases they know that what the false doctrine teaches is a lie and contradicts the Word of God, but the love of money, the desire for the married female Pastor preaching false doctrine who had thrown seductive suggestive remarks - all sorts of things - cause people to choose the lie over the truth when they know the truth.

That does not mean that everyone who follows false doctrine knows the truth and does so because of a motive - some are indeed deceived - but I doubt that was the case with Adam. He had communion with God in the Garden of Eden and God had spoken directly to him. He was the prophet (and the high priest representing his wife).

Maybe the reason Adam did what he did was not because he too believed the lie, but maybe because he loved his wife so much that, in his mind at the time, if she's going down, he's going down with her?

I believe Adam could have mediated between Eve and God on behalf of Eve, and he knew it, but he chose to also follow the lie because of the benefits the "Pastor of false doctrine" preached would be his if he followed the lie.

I don't know what sacrifice for the sin God would have required if Adam had mediated between Eve and God without committing the same sin. Maybe Adam being the son of God who had never sinned as yet could have sacrificed his life for Eve and have been resurrected by God because of his own righteousness (which he would have maintained IF he had not followed in the same sin).

But that's speculative.

 

[Zao is life]

I have been a preacher called unto prophecy bent for 40 years, just like every other message board guy who thinks they have all the answers and never do, you just dodged all the points about how those people in Rev. 4:4 has all the gifts PROMISED to those in Rev; 2:10, 3:5 and 3:21, and whereas when you cited other scriptures to point out what this fact meant, NOW because it mandates a Pre Trib. Rapture, you have to back track LOL, I see this every day.


Need to back track brother. If you can't argue a point solidly, just skip all the drama.

This is what you dodge (quote obviously whenever you teach your flock your own doctrines) - the fact that all the verses below are talking about tribulation and "the tribulation" - and it's talking about the tribulation of believers in Christ, not about the tribulation of the unbelieving world.

TRIBULATION OF APOSTLES OR CHRISTIANS:-

Matthew 13:21 (Parallel: Mark 4:17); Matthew 24:9 & 29 (Parallel Mark 13:24); John 16:33; Acts 11:19; Acts 14:22; Acts 20:23; Romans 5:3; Romans 8:35; Romans 12:12; 2 Corinthians 1:4, 6 & 8; 2 Corinthians 2:4; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 7:4-5; 2 Corinthians 8:2; Ephesians 3:13; Philippians 1:16; Philippians 4:14; Colossians 1:24; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:3-4 & 7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, 6-7; 2 Timothy 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:11; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 10:32-33; 1 Peter 5:9; Revelation 1:9; Revelation 2:9-10, 22; Revelation 7:14.

GREAT TRIBULATION
[Greek: mégas thlîpsis]

Mentioned only three times in the New Testament:-

Second mention: "Behold, I will cast her (Jezebel) into a bed, and them (those Christians) that commit adultery with her into mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), except they repent of their deeds." -- Revelation 2:21

Third mention: "After these things I looked, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of all nations and kindreds and people and tongues, stood before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palms in their hands. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb.

And one of the elders answered, saying to me, Who are these who are arrayed in white robes, and from where do they come? And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of great tribulation [mégas thlîpsis] and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.

Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple. And He sitting on the throne will dwell among them. They will not hunger any more, nor thirst any more, nor will the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes." -- Revelation 7:9-10, 13-15.

First mention: "For then shall be great tribulation [megas thlipsis], such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." -- Matthew 24:21-22 *

* Luke 21:23 uses the word wrath [orgḗ] to describe what was to come upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem (not the word tribulation):

"But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress [anánkē] in the land and wrath [orgḗ] on this people."

* The Revelation uses the words orge and thumos (wrath) to describe what is to come upon the nations at the hand of an angry God (not the word tribulation).

Persecution of Jesus: John 5:16

Persecution of Christians: Matthew 5:10-12; John 15:20; Acts 22:4; Acts 26:11; 1 Corinthians 4:12; 1 Corinthians 15:9; 2 Corinthians 4:9; Galatians 1:13 & 23; Galatians 4:29; Galatians 5:11.

Persecution of "the woman" who gave birth to the Messiah: Revelation 12:13.

There are only two verses in the New Testament referring to tribulation experienced by non-Christians:-

1. Of all who do evil: Romans 2:9.
2. Of the world as repayment for bringing tribulation upon the saints: 2 Thessalonians 1:6.

You should teach those who you claim to teach the Bible, not your own doctrines based on wishful thinking. If you did you would not 'spot' a 'pre-tibulation rapture' in Revelation 4 or anywhere else.

But quite obviously you won't teach the Bible. So it's pointless talking to you because in order to have any support whatsoever for your assertions you first have to comment - without avoiding any or leaving any out - on each and every one of the above verses which are talking about the tribulation of believers in Jesus, and then give your imagined 'reasons' why the believers in Jesus will be raptured before the tribulation which they themselves are said in scripture to endure and which they themselves will endure.

I doubt you will. You'll just keep avoiding scripture (the passages and verses above) and keep claiming that you have somehow spotted a 'pre-tribulation rapture' in Revelation 4 and other places where there is no such thing being spoken about.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That is exactly what I was thinking as well when I read that post of his you are addressing here. He insists NOSAS is his position but then contradicts NOSAS by using 1 John 5:3 to apparently prove OSAS.

Stop being a fool! I was doing no such thing. You have no reading comprehension skills whatsoever. Stop trying to speak for me when you have no understanding of what I believe! Never did I say that someone who is born again does not need to have faith until the end. My point is that all believers who are born again and have faith until the end are overcomers because all believers are born of God, as 1 John 5:1-4 talks about. I was refuting the argument that only certain believers are overcomers rather than all of them. No, all believers are born of God so all believers who keep their faith until the end are overcomers. He was acting as if someone can only be considered an overcomer if they are killed for their faith. That is not true.

I'm not convinced he even fully understands the NOSAS position to begin with, the fact he contradicts it at times.

I do not do that! You are a LIAR! Why are you so foolish? You are completely lacking in reading comprehension skills so you end up thinking things that are true only in your imagination.

For example, Revelation 20:6. As if, once someone has part in the first resurrection, they can somehow lose part in it. But that is what Amil and NOSAS teaches. Granted, Amil and OSAS does not teach that. But even so, it doesn't matter since, only OSAS is Biblical, NOSAS isn't, is not a valid argument.

You are being completely foolish here. Since my view is that having part in the first resurrection is the same as being saved, how is believing someone can lose their part in the first resurrection any different than the belief that someone can lose their salvation? It's not. But, you don't try to look at things from the perspective of others, you only foolishly look at things from your own perspective. That's why you don't understand anything anyone else believes.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


This verse does not say nor mean the following.

Blessed and holy are some, thus not all, that have part in the first resurrection, on some that have part in the first resurrection the second death hath no power, while on others that also have part in the first resurrection the second death hath power. As if Revelation 20:6 is conditional. As if, once someone has part in the first resurrection, they can somehow lose part in it. Except there is not an 'if' anywhere in verse 6, nor implied, period.

You could use that same stupid logic to conclude that all who are born of God overcome without exception.

1 John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. 2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

Using the same kind of dumb logic that you use when interpreting Revelation 20:6, we would conclude that everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God and is born of God overcomes the world without exception without any need to stay faithful until death. The text doesn't say that someone has to stay faithful until death, so using your stupid logic, that would mean anyone who ever has faith overcomes the world and will inherit eternal life.

True, my position is also NOSAS, yet my position does not contradict Revelation 20:6, though.

LOL Premill contradicts Revelation 20:6 because it doesn't acknowledge that Jesus has been reigning since His resurrection and that believers have been priests of God and of Christ in His kingdom since His resurrection, as other scripture teaches, including Revelation 1:5-6.

At what point is it true that the second death no long has power over someone? Not until they are bodily resurrected? No, scripture does not teach that. But, that's how Premill interprets Revelation 20:6. That means those who are alive and remain until the second coming of Christ are out of luck since they will not die and therefore will not have part in the first resurrection, according to Premill. But, having part in the Christ's resurrection, which is the first resurrection according to scripture (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20), is required in order to have part in the first resurrection.

And the reason it doesn't is simple. NOSAS, assuming one ends up falling away eventually, is something that occurs in this age in this life before the first resurrection occurs at the 2nd coming. In my view the first resurrection is bodily, and once one has put on bodily immortality at the 2nd coming, they can't then lose that somehow since that would contradict Revelation 20:6, for one.

Explain how those who are alive and remain will avoid the second death without having part in the first resurrection.

The question is, since NOSAS obviously means one has to be initially saved first before NOSAS can be applied to them, are the ones that end up falling away ever born of God at anytime? Especially initially? If they never were born of God at any time, not even initially, how did they initially become saved then?

Plus, is anyone in the NOSAS camp going to argue that anyone that falls away, this equals that they do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God? After all, that verse says overcomers believe that Jesus is the Son of God. And clearly, anyone that falls away, thus fails to overcome, does not logically equal they no longer still believe Jesus is the Son of God. How can they not still believe that, regardless that they fall away eventually?

You post so much foolishness. You are arguing with a strawman here. No one wastes more time making strawman arguments than you. You don't even give me a chance to explain what I meant by bringing up 1 John 5 and you end up making a fool of yourself by misrepresenting my beliefs yet again, as you have done many times.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What you need to be asking yourself, does your position agree or disagree with Revelation 20:6? That verse says every single person that has part in the first resurrection, they are blessed and holy. That verse equally says every single person that has part in the first resurrection, the 2nd death has no power4 over them. Meaning none of them, as in zero, that have part in the first resurrection, can somehow wind up in the LOF, meaning the 2nd death has power over them after all. Thus contradicting what John plainly and clearly said, that the 2nd death has no power over anyone that has part in the first resurrection.

You need to ask yourself how the second death has no power over those who are alive and remain until the second coming of Christ. I believe Revelation 20:6 indicates that one must have part in the first resurrection in order for the second death to not have power over them.

Tell me, does the second death have power over you right now? Does the second death have power over the dead in Christ right now?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Futurists can call “the beast” (Revelation 17:8, 11) “antichrist” (1 John 4:3) and “the mystery of iniquity” (2 Thessalonians 2:7), “that man of sin” (2 Thessalonians 2:3), “the son of perdition” (2 Thessalonians 2:3) and “that Wicked” (2 Thessalonians 2:8) a literal physical “man” all they want, but they cannot get away from the fact that whoever this “man” is, he has been alive for over 2000 years.

That spirit of antichrist

1 John 2:18: “ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.”

1 John 4:3: “this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.”

The mystery of iniquity (or lawlessness)

2 Thessalonians 2:7: “For the mystery of iniquity doth already work.”

The Beast

Revelation 17:8: “The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend”

Revelation 17:8: “the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”

Revelation 17:11: “the beast that was, and is not, even he is.”

What human being do you know has been alive on earth for over 2,000 years?

Exactly. People who believe in a future individual Antichrist just ignore verses like those.