The Church decided the canon. How do you know you have the correct canon?

[BreadOfLife]

Apostolic Succession is the world's longest game of Telephone. I knew someone who knew someone... x100

Absolutely - for those of you who have NO faith.

However, when you trust Jesus and believe His promise that His Church would not succumb to darkness - then Apostolic Succession is very easy to understand.

 

[Wick Stick]

Absolutely - for those of you who have NO faith.

However, when you trust Jesus and believe His promise that His Church would not succumb to darkness - then Apostolic Succession is very easy to understand.

No, It really isn't that easy to understand.

At first glance, one might expect an apostolic successor to actually be an apostle. But no.

At second guess, one might expect an apostolic successor to be appointed or approved by an apostle. But again, no.

I think it's meant to indicate that there's an unbroken succession where doctrine is handed off from one to the next. But that isn't really true, either. Bishops are appointed in a mostly-political process, often don't know their predecessor, and sometimes have been literally enemies with them.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, It really isn't that easy to understand.

At first glance, one might expect an apostolic successor to actually be an apostle. But no.

At second guess, one might expect an apostolic successor to be appointed or approved by an apostle. But again, no.

I think it's meant to indicate that there's an unbroken succession where doctrine is handed off from one to the next. But that isn't really true, either. Bishops are appointed in a mostly-political process, often don't know their predecessor, and sometimes have been literally enemies with them.

That's a silly argument . . .

Soooo, every U.S. President is “illegitimate” because he may NOT have seen eye-to-eye with a predecessor? Is that a limitation that YOU have placed on legitimate succession??

Apostolic Succession is just what it says: Apostolic SUCCESSION.
One who SUCCEEDS a successor of a successor, etc., of an Apostle.

Nobody is claiming that they are the actual Apostles from 2000 years ago.

 

[Wick Stick]

That's a silly argument . . .

Soooo, every U.S. President is “illegitimate” because he may NOT have seen eye-to-eye with a predecessor? Is that a limitation that YOU have placed on legitimate succession??

Apostolic Succession is just what it says: Apostolic SUCCESSION.
One who SUCCEEDS a successor of a successor, etc., of an Apostle.

Nobody is claiming that they are the actual Apostles from 2000 years ago.

You're unpleasant. I've muted you. Have the last word, please. I won't see it.

 

[Dash RipRock]

You're unpleasant. I've muted you. Have the last word, please. I won't see it.

Catholics won't know they are in a cult until they arrive in the lake of fire.

Then they'll figure it out. That's what happens to slow people who reject God's Word.

 

[shepherdsword]

My

My ongoing engagement is for the Church, those chosen out from the world, to enjoy the union with the Spirit of Christ. To hear Him, to speak to Him Who was sent to us from Jesus and His Father.

To thanks Him for coming into us. Praise Him for the work He does in us and through us. And worship Him, for He is God and worthy of our thanks, praise and worship.

 

[Dash RipRock]

Exactly!

 

[BreadOfLife]

You're unpleasant. I've muted you. Have the last word, please. I won't see it.

No just honest . . .

 

[One 2 question]

View attachment 64202

As some have explained this, there's God who is 3 in one, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Bible.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

First of all – Jesus never instructed us to pray to the Father “Alone”.
He taught us HOW to pray to Him. Rp “PRAY” simply means to “ASK””

Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary:
Full Definition of pray
transitive verb
1: entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by praying

intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

Acts 27:34 - KJV
"Wherefore I pray you to take some meat: for this is for your health: for there shall not an hair fall from the head of any of you".

Secondly, since the Holy Spirit is GOD (John 14:16-18, Acts 5:3-4) – we absolutely can – and should pray to Him.

Maybe you should learn Gods Word better instead of mans opinions.

Pray in Matthew 7 is : proseuchomai, while pray in acts 27 is: parakaleō two different words with two different meanings- you failed.

Please show me one place in Scripture where anyone proseuchomai prayed to the Holy spirit.

And guess what else we are never told?
That the Bible is our SOLE Authority . .

It also doesn't say some pope sitting on his throne is any authority either.

But we do know these words from god's Word:

2 Peter 1:19-21

King James Version

​

19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Law=Pentateuch of the bible.


From Psalm 119:

11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

103 How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!

104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.

105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

It is clear- Scripture and not some man made church teachings or crafty reinterpretations of Gods Word are the source for our truth and authority,

Now please show your defense that the bible is not our sole authority for all tings doctrinally and how the church should function.

 

[One 2 question]

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost

Do you believe the same Spirit Who moved these men in old time to speak, is in us? So why would it be a strange thing for Him to speak new truths (as promised by Jesus) through the members of Jesus's body?

I can testify to this as He has given me new truths in visions which I've had the privilege of speaking to others. There is one Spirit of Truth Who is revealing the mind of Christ and this is awesome.

 

[One 2 question]

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Is EVERY word that proceeds from the mouth of God found in the books of the bible? Of course not. One of the contributors of the bible actually confirms this.

Jhn 21:24&25 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

So every word that God spoke has not been recorded. Let alone what God continues speaks to Jesus, His Spirit, the heavenly hosts in heaven and us humans on earth.

 

[One 2 question]

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Law=Pentateuch of the bible.

Who's taking away from the documented law?

Thankfully there is an infinite volume of God's words, His expressed thoughts that go way beyond the law.

 

[KUWN]

The Church decided the canon. How do you know you have the correct canon?​

Most evangelical scholars concur that the canon was not "decided" but the books were self-evidently part of the canon. The canonical books were each recognized as such due to their 'living' nature.

 

[One 2 question]

Now please show your defense that the bible is not our sole authority for all tings doctrinally and how the church should function.

My testimony proves to me that God is very much still revealing His truths to us, the church. What He reveals to me as one moved along by the Holy Ghost is remarkable, highlighting the love of the Creator.

This is where my faith is developed, as not seeing yet I believe what He says. As a young child of God I relied on bible teachers to feed me truth. As I grew I was able to interpret and apply the words in the bible for myself. Then as I matured further I had no need of a human teacher. Now, having the Spirit of Truth as my sole divine Teacher, I listen to and hear from Him directly.

I haven't consulted the bible for myself for years now. If the Spirit of the Creator refers to scriptures or the bibles, then I'm all ears. But generally I only listen out for Him.

 

[One 2 question]

Most evangelical scholars concur that the canon was not "decided" but the books were self-evidently part of the canon. The canonical books were each recognized as such due to their 'living' nature.

Thanks. A number of people, not you, have tried to say humans were directed by God to compile the many different biblical canons.

Then they say God does not change, He's the same yesterday today and forever. He doesn't contradict Himself.

But obviously you are correct, it was humans who came up with the various canons of varying content.

 

[Taken]

Most evangelical scholars concur that the canon was not "decided" but the books were self-evidently part of the canon. The canonical books were each recognized as such due to their 'living' nature.

Get your point.

The “so called “Canon” (concept) dates back to Ancient times…of God directing men TO make written Recordings, of Gods Teachings…( which are not exclusive TO…
(Do This…. But which also includes TO Not Do That)

which by default can become the “playbook” For an Advocate FOR God; “Do This”….
Or For an Advocate Against God; “Don’t Do That”.

Church “early teachings were give to Jews, appointed teachers, teaching in the Temple, traveling to Jewish communities, teaching in Synogogues….

Gentiles, hearing, interested, as well traveling, byways, towns, homes of Gentiles, town halls, building buildings, calling them a meeting house / Church.

Jews as well as Gentiles…established… scriptural teaching (recordings, copies thereof, distribution of copies)….
AND…”companion” books… primarily … engulfed with, opinions of men, explanations / understandings according to men, regarding and pertaining to scriptures.

The “companion” books… particularly of the Gentiles…over the course of Time… routinely have been “revised” changed, added to…
AND “new-comers” (so to speak) have joined the club (so to speak) of making “their own” “companion” books…and calling “their” Churches, by a Universal Name they chose.

* Universal Problem / Dilemma…
As the “companion books” become the “primary Teaching AID”… the actual Scripture often and common place Becomes a dust collector, rarely found necessary to open, read.

Thus … The ongoing Disputes “among those claiming to be …Christ Followers”…
ARE: primarily Regarding … that which is Taught from the “companion books”…!

AND… relatively “modern” open and becoming “acceptable” IN some Churches…IS Literal anti-Godly, Literal Blasphemous, “IF it makes you Feel Good, IT IS Good and Acceptable!…
(So keep coming, hearing about how good you feel, and drop your money in the coffers)!

I would say… there is among “evangelists” (having no Church perse’, but having a “platform” ) (tv, satellite , radio, scheduled revivals, etc.)
A mix… Some strictly Bible Scholar's, Strict Scripture, and others including their own Brand of interpretation's .

God bless you,

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[SavedInHim]

Protestants have 66 books, we have 76 in Orthodoxy. A lot of times people say God decided the canon of the Bible and while we can all agree, it is still avoiding the question as to when and how God did it. Famous Protestant scholars F.F. Bruce and Lee McDonald show in their books on the formation of the canon that there was no fixed OT canon and that the early church fathers had differing canons, many of which included the apocrypha.

A common answer Protestants give when asked about how they know the correct canon is citing the book of John where it says we are guided by the Holy Spirit. However, this is presupposing that the book of John belongs in the canon when in fact the question is prior or a priori to Scripture. We cannot go to the scriptures to tell us what the correct canon is when the canon itself is what’s in question along with the book of John.

If the Church truly went rogue as the reformers claimed, then wouldn’t it be conceivable for all of us come to up with our own canon on that basis? If I said the Bible is just the first four books of the New Testament, who would anyone be to tell me I’m wrong?

It only makes sense that there is a historical Church because Christ himself lived in history. Christianity and the Bible cannot be divorced from its history.

The Holy Spirit is the most reliable guide to truth. People are always questioning the scriptures; sometimes they might have a point. But being a disciple of the Lord is a walk of the Spirit. People who are swayed by every intellectual argument that comes down the pike will never find the peace He promised.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Do you believe the same Spirit Who moved these men in old time to speak, is in us? So why would it be a strange thing for Him to speak new truths (as promised by Jesus) through the members of Jesus's body?

I can testify to this as He has given me new truths in visions which I've had the privilege of speaking to others. There is one Spirit of Truth Who is revealing the mind of Christ and this is awesome.

Because teh Apostles laid the foundation of the church which is doctrine. We have lots of people speaking new things and they subtly twist Scripture and lead vulnerable people astray.

Can you give an example of one of these truths?

Who's taking away from the documented law?

Thankfully there is an infinite volume of God's words, His expressed thoughts that go way beyond the law.

And the only ones He gave us to live in fellowship with Him is called the bible. Any truth that denies or alters the truths found in the bible are angel of light deceptions.

Let me ask you a question. what do you do when you reveal a new truth that you believe God has given to you, and someone else reveals a truth they believe God gave them that contradicts your new truth? Do you just blithely say they are wrong while they say you are wrong? or does God give contradictory truths?

My testimony proves to me that God is very much still revealing His truths to us, the church. What He reveals to me as one moved along by the Holy Ghost is remarkable, highlighting the love of the Creator.

This is where my faith is developed, as not seeing yet I believe what He says. As a young child of God I relied on bible teachers to feed me truth. As I grew I was able to interpret and apply the words in the bible for myself. Then as I matured further I had no need of a human teacher. Now, having the Spirit of Truth as my sole divine Teacher, I listen to and hear from Him directly.

I haven't consulted the bible for myself for years now. If the Spirit of the Creator refers to scriptures or the bibles, then I'm all ears. But generally I only listen out for Him.

So if this Spirit you are following reveals a truth that contradicts the bible, what do you do? Just relying on your own testimony is foolish. You close yourself off from teh body to help you be protected from false visions. And if you think you are not vulnerable to being deceived by these voices you hear internally. If you think you are not, you are a prisoner of war in the spiritual battle that goes on.

I haven't consulted the bible for myself for years now. If the Spirit of the Creator refers to scriptures or the bibles, then I'm all ears. But generally I only listen out for Him.

This is a tragedy. If you do not filter all visions, vioces , and dreeams therough the Bible you are probably far away from Jesus listening to a sweet sounding counterfeit voice. Don't think you can't be fooled! The demons are far smarter than you and I even though we have the Spirit.

Thanks. A number of people, not you, have tried to say humans were directed by God to compile the many different biblical canons.

Then they say God does not change, He's the same yesterday today and forever. He doesn't contradict Himself.

But obviously you are correct, it was humans who came up with the various canons of varying content.

Humans were directed by God and time has proven the bible infallibly true.

As to varying content- God ruled over men in different ways at differing times. But never contradicted Himself.

Who's taking away from the documented law?

Thankfully there is an infinite volume of God's words, His expressed thoughts that go way beyond the law.

And the only ones that are profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness that a man of God may be completely furnished to all good works is called the bible.

 

[One 2 question]

Because teh Apostles laid the foundation of the church which is doctrine. We have lots of people speaking new things and they subtly twist Scripture and lead vulnerable people astray.

Can you give an example of one of these truths?

The Spirit of God revealed the mass repenting of all those outside His kingdom. The one who led the turning back to their Creators was Satan.

As I observed this scene, the Creators accepted them, reconciling every one of them to Themselves.

God the Father went further than that. While engaging with Satan, He reached behind Him and produced a throne to His left. This prodigal angel was shown divine mercy and grace.

Now isn't that something amazing, that not only the angels in heaven will rejoice over, but we the firstfuits also, as we join them in worshipping our Creators. What a reunion party this will be! To be reunited with those we were separated from, be it us humans or angels. The prodigal angels have returned. This is so exciting! My heart can't help but be filled with joy right now. Oh the love of God for Their creation is absolutely astounding.