What do you think was God`s Purpose in making - the Nations, Israel and the Body of Christ?

[Davy]

Hi Davy,

Rev 12:3-4
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Rev. 12: 3 - 4 is the scriptural identity of Satan. And it is he who has 7 Crowned heads and 10 horns NOT ancient kingdom.

Oh yes... that Revelation 12:3-4 Scripture does... represent the time of Lucifer's original rebellion against God. You're just having a difficult time grasping it, because you've obviously been taught something else other than what that Scripture plainly states.

I use the devil's name Lucifer for that time in the old world when He was originally created perfect in his ways, serving God at His throne, as a covering cherub (per God's parable in Ezekiel 28 about the "king of Tyrus").

Now just when... did the devil, draw a third of those symbolic "stars" (which represent angels because of Old Testament symbolic references)??

 

[Davy]

This description of Satan reveals him as one who masquerades as an angel of light and then shows his authority over the kingdoms of this world. Note the word `seven,` in Heb. means to be complete. He has complete control over the kingdoms of the world. (John 5: 16)

You are LEAVING the Revelation 12:3-4 Scripture subject by that above. You cannot just pick the word 'seven' out of the air and try and apply it however you want. The Rev.12:3 verse is plain and simple, it is pointing to "seven crowns". And if the beast system in Rev.13:1 that is to have "ten crowns" is about ten literal kings, then so is that "seven crowns" label of Rev.12:3 is about seven kings. AND... the Rev.12:4 event of Satan having drawn one third of those angels to earth, IS... about his original rebellion in wanting to be God which was the sin Satan did in the old world prior to Adam and Eve.

So you cannot... just elude all the above that I mention by trying to shove it... into this present world's history. It obvious that you, like many fellowbrethren, struggle with understanding that there was another world prior to the time of Adam and Eve when God's River and His Garden Paradise was once establish over the whole earth, and was when He created Lucifer perfect in his ways, as a covering cherub with the duty to guard God's Throne. I realize many brethren struggle with that ancient time, so you are not alone.

 

[Zao is life]

So, what do you think (from God`s word if you can) was God`s purpose in making -

1. The Nations.

2. Israel.

3. The Body of Christ.


If you can only comment on one group, then that is fine.

Your second group you have wrongly separated into two groups. Here are the key scriptures which show how you have wrongly separated them:

Genesis 12:1-3:
"Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."

Christ is the seed of Abraham through whom all the nations of the earth have been blessed: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive." (1 Corinthians 15;22). "Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his descendant. Scripture does not say, "and to the descendants," referring to many, but "and to your descendant," referring to one, who is Christ." (Galatians 3:16).

The above promise in Genesis 12:2-3 was the very first promise that God made to Abraham, and this promise therefore forms the basis for:

(a) Any subsequent promise that God made to Abraham; and

(b) Anything that God later did in the life of Abraham and his descendants.

Seed of Abraham

The second time God made a promise to Abraham, He said,

Genesis 17:3-6
"And Abram fell on his face. And God talked with him, saying, As for Me, behold! My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of a multitude of gôyim (Gentiles/Gentile nations). Neither shall your name any more be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham. For I have made you a father of a multitude of gôyim, and I will make you exceedingly fruitful, greatly so, and I will make gôyim (Gentiles/Gentile nations) of you, and kings shall come out of you.". *

* Notice how God repeated the above promise (Genesis 17:3-6) three times.

Abraham

fathered a son named

Isaac,

who fathered a son named

Jacob/Israel,

(If it weren't for Isaac and Jacob, there would have been no Mary to bring the seed of Abraham into the world).

Jacob became the father of

Twelve sons,

one of whom was named Judah, patriarch of the tribe of Judah or "the Jews" - the tribe through whom God chose to bring the seed promised to Abraham (Jesus) into the world, the promised Messiah through Whom "all the families of the earth are blessed" (Jesus was born a Jew).

The evidence for the key role played by the natural descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob lies in:

(i) The history of Israel; and

(ii) The existence of both the Old and New Testament scriptures (64 of the 66 books contained in the Protestant Canon were written by "the Jews"); and

(iii) The existence of Gentile Christians and Christian assemblies all around the world (because the first of all of them were founded by Jews);

and their key role is laid out by Paul in Romans 9:3-6, and hidden in the metaphoric symbolism of the sun and moon and eleven stars seen by Joseph in a dream (Joseph was the 12th of twelve stars) in Genesis 37:9, which is also found in Revelation 12:1.

The evidence for the key role played by the Jewish apostles of Jesus lies in the initial spread of the gospel to the four corners of the earth.

The evidence for the key role played by Gentile Christians lies in the continued spread of the gospel to the four corners of the earth, which Christ, the promised seed of Abraham, mentioned when He said,

"This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end (of the age) come." (Matthew 24:14).

But the central and crucial role is that which is played by Christ, the seed of Abraham, Himself. Were it not for our God and Savior Jesus Christ, there would not be any role for anyone else to play, or to have played.

Israel is IN the body of Christ. That's why those natural descendants of Jacob who are not in Christ are broken off. You have wrongly separated Christ from His body.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Rev uses horns as symbols of rulers not heads. Heads are mountains which are raised areas of land (not necessarily literal mountains with snow etc)

You acknowledge that mountains are not necessarily literal mountains, but then you also say they must represent literal "raised areas of land". That makes no sense. If the mountains are symbolic, then they can symbolize anything and do not have to symbolize something that is similar to literal mountains. You clearly don't understand symbolism at all. In scripture, mountains symbolize kingdoms, not "raised areas of land".

The woman is not only said to sit on seven mountains, but also many waters (Rev 17:1) and on a scarlet colored beast with seven heads and ten horns (Rev 17:3). The many waters symbolize "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues". So, what the many waters symbolize does not resemble many waters literally. The beast is obviously symbolic as well, but does not symbolize something that is similar to a literal best with seven heads and ten horns. The mountains are also symbolic, but not of something similar to mountains, as you claim. That's not how symbolism works. In scripture, mountains sometimes symbolize kingdoms and that is the case here. The seven mountains the woman sits on are seven historical kingdoms or world empires. The Roman empire was the sixth and was the one that "is" (after the previous five had fallen) at the time the book was written.

 

[Jay Ross]

You acknowledge that mountains are not necessarily literal mountains, but then you also say they must represent literal "raised areas of land". That makes no sense. If the mountains are symbolic, then they can symbolize anything and do not have to symbolize something that is similar to literal mountains. You clearly don't understand symbolism at all. In scripture, mountains symbolize kingdoms, not "raised areas of land".

The woman is not only said to sit on seven mountains, but also many waters (Rev 17:1) and on a scarlet colored beast with seven heads and ten horns (Rev 17:3). The many waters symbolize "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues". So, what the many waters symbolize does not resemble many waters literally. The beast is obviously symbolic as well, but does not symbolize something that is similar to a literal best with seven heads and ten horns. The mountains are also symbolic, but not of something similar to mountains, as you claim. That's not how symbolism works. In scripture, mountains sometimes symbolize kingdoms and that is the case here. The seven mountains the woman sits on are seven historical kingdoms or world empires. The Roman empire was the sixth and was the one that "is" (after the previous five had fallen) at the time the book was written.

In Daniel 2, Daniel wrote of a rock/stone that comes down out of Heaven untouched by human hands in our near future and will then become the largest mountain on the whole earth.

Perhaps the seven mountains are seven religions upon which the woman sits.

Perhaps your metaphor or symbolism is a tad off. Just a thought.

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

God could have destroyed Lucifer when Lucifer set off the war in heaven.

But he didn't.

What's the purpose? Just what God told us in his own words. Everything is for his own glory.

We're pawns in a divine sovereigns game of 3D chess.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In Daniel 2, Daniel wrote of a rock/stone that comes down out of Heaven untouched by human hands in our near future and will then become the largest mountain on the whole earth.

Perhaps the seven mountains are seven religions upon which the woman sits.

Perhaps your metaphor or symbolism is a tad off. Just a thought.

Or perhaps yours is a tad off? But, it appears that you agree with me that the symbolic woman does not sit on literal things? The many waters and the beast she sits on (Rev 17:1,3) are obviously not literal.

 

[ewq1938]

In Daniel 2, Daniel wrote of a rock/stone that comes down out of Heaven untouched by human hands in our near future and will then become the largest mountain on the whole earth.

Perhaps the seven mountains are seven religions upon which the woman sits.

Or maybe it's 7 mountains like it says? The symbolism is 7 heads and the explanation is 7 mountains but some don't accept the explanation and create a new version.

The explanation of a metaphor is what it is. The explanation is never another metaphor.

heads = mountains, not kings, not religions not anything other than mountains.

 

[ewq1938]

God could have destroyed Lucifer when Lucifer set off the war in heaven.

Doesn't say he started the war. God may have started the war to remove satan from heaven and advance the rest of God's overall plan.

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

Doesn't say he started the war. God may have started the war to remove satan from heaven and advance the rest of God's overall plan.

God could have done that very thing. However Lucifer earned the title of Adversary after being cast out of Heaven.

An adversary would fit for one who gathered angels to war against God.

Why would God want to cast out one of his angels? How can an angel sin in Heaven?

 

[ewq1938]

God could have done that very thing. However Lucifer earned the title of Adversary after being cast out of Heaven.

He had that LONG before being cast out of heaven. The wa5r in heaven in Rev 12 is AFTER Christ's ascension and satan was the enemy much longer before that.

An adversary would fit for one who gathered angels to war against God.

If satan used angels for a war against God, why were those angels/stars cast down to Earth rather than remain in heaven for that war?

Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Why would God want to cast out one of his angels? How can an angel sin in Heaven?

satan already had his rebellious angels many centuries before Rev 12:4. This is entirely something else.

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

He had that LONG before being cast out of heaven. The wa5r in heaven in Rev 12 is AFTER Christ's ascension and satan was the enemy much longer before that.




If satan used angels for a war against God, why were those angels/stars cast down to Earth rather than remain in heaven for that war?

Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.





satan already had his rebellious angels many centuries before Rev 12:4. This is entirely something else.

So, Satan was an adversary of God before Jesus? And journeyed between earth and heaven and met with God prior to the ascension of Jesus?

 

[Gottservant]

So, what do you think (from God`s word if you can) was God`s purpose in making -

1. The Nations.

The nations stop people fighting or trying to build a tower to God.

2. Israel.

Israel was necessary that the Messiah come forth.

3. The Body of Christ.

The Body of Christ was necessary that Salvation be extended to every Man (if God did not, the nations and Israel would perish).

 

[ewq1938]

So, Satan was an adversary of God before Jesus? And journeyed between earth and heaven and met with God prior to the ascension of Jesus?

Yes.

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

Yes.

So,as with Job, Satan was serving God's will when he entered Eden?

 

[ewq1938]

So,as with Job, Satan was serving God's will when he entered Eden?

You mean entered the garden within Eden?

God allows satan to do bad things like murder as we see in Job.

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

You mean entered the garden within Eden?

God allows satan to do bad things like murder as we see in Job.

Yes,the garden was in Eden. Satan first entered Eden to get to the garden.
So,God let Satan tempt Adam and Eve?

 

[Jay Ross]

In Daniel 2, Daniel wrote of a rock/stone that comes down out of Heaven untouched by human hands in our near future and will then become the largest mountain on the whole earth.

Perhaps the seven mountains are seven religions upon which the woman sits.

Or maybe it's 7 mountains like it says? The symbolism is 7 heads and the explanation is 7 mountains but some don't accept the explanation and create a new version.

The explanation of a metaphor is what it is. The explanation is never another metaphor.

heads = mountains, not kings, not religions not anything other than mountains.

You and I could be right, and you and I could also be wrong.

My experience is that a mountain is associated with a place where people go to worship their "god(s)" which is associated with a type of or a particular religion.

This metaphorical language around a mountain has only made sense to me if it is considered that the "mountain" metaphorically is referring to a religion. The same is true for the fourth beast of Daniel 7:1-12 where Daniel writes: -

Daniel 7: 7-8, 11: - 7 "After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. 8 I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words.​

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. . . .​

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11 "I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame.”​

The Ten horns of the Fourth Beast are a part of the false religions that the Little Horn uses for the pompous words that he speaks out against the Saints and also God.

It may be that we will simply need to agree to disagree with what is being posted.

Shalom

 

[Marilyn C]

Rev uses horns as symbols of rulers not heads. Heads are mountains which are raised areas of land (not necessarily literal mountains with snow etc)

Horns are powers. The beast doesn`t have 7 mountains on it.

 

[Marilyn C]

Oh yes... that Revelation 12:3-4 Scripture does... represent the time of Lucifer's original rebellion against God. You're just having a difficult time grasping it, because you've obviously been taught something else other than what that Scripture plainly states.

I use the devil's name Lucifer for that time in the old world when He was originally created perfect in his ways, serving God at His throne, as a covering cherub (per God's parable in Ezekiel 28 about the "king of Tyrus").

Now just when... did the devil, draw a third of those symbolic "stars" (which represent angels because of Old Testament symbolic references)??

Lucifer drew a third of the angels with him when he was cast out of the third heaven. That invisible realm was created before the visible realm. (Col. 1: 16)