What do you think was God`s Purpose in making - the Nations, Israel and the Body of Christ?

[Marilyn C]

Maybe they weren't fallen angels as in not satan's angels? He rebelled long before that and angels followed him at least as far as Gen 6. Kinda seems strange that he would get 1/3 more angels at a timeframe after Christ's ascension, doesn't it?

The picture of the fallen angels and Satan is an overview of what God`s word says about them. It is just a summary, not to do with after Christ`s ascension. Just as the Lord`s summary is in the surrounding verses. (Rev. 12: 1, 2 & 5)

 

[ScottA]

Christ was God made flesh.

Yes, man created in God's image, Christ the firstfruits: Man is an "image" of God.

 

[Marilyn C]

Gad created and made manKind for His Pleasure.

Making the Nations?
Introduction of a man Submitting to a Higher Authority.

Making of Israel?
Introduction of man Submitting to a Higher Authority/ Power Above All other Powers.

The Body of Jesus?
An Revealing of Gods Grace, Giving manKind an Example and Sacrifice Offered to manKind, to Take. .

The Christ?
An Example of Gods Power for men to See, Experience and Trust.

Glory to God,
Taken

Hi taken,

Good that you have commented on authority and power. I agree that all will submit to the Lord who is sovereign over all.

Now would you like to comment on what you think God has planned for each group in eternity?

 

[ScottA]

Hi Scott,

God is not alone, the Godhead has three persons - Father, Son and Holy Spirit. (which I`m sure you know.)

As to the church, Body of Christ, the New Man, it is not female, the wife and bride. God`s word tells us that His relationship to Israel is as a husband, master, and Israel as a nation is the wife. (Isa. 54: 5 & 6 Hos. 2: 19 & 20)

Then in the New heavens and New Earth, the city the New Jerusalem is described as a bride, because of the glory of God upon it. (Rev. 21: 9 - 11)
The New Jerusalem is thus the administrative center for God`s rulership through Israel over the earth. It is also the means whereby God connects and interlocks the spiritual and physical realms. The symbol of this is the `Bride,` representing this connecting and interlocking.

Many are the images of God and His relationship and purpose of humanity, for which the heavens and earth were created--even the images of the new heavens and new earth and New Jerusalem. Everything made manifest or spoken of in parable is not what shall be according to the worldly image, but what they only point to according to the heavenly. These images darkly are not what shall be.

 

[Marilyn C]

I don’t believe that God ever intended the world to be divided into “nations”……there was only one “race” in the beginning and nothing in God’s plans for “the human race” implied otherwise.

As was mentioned, all “races” descended from Noah’s sons…..still one genetically related group, who spoke one language, but who were divided when the language was confused at Babel. This division is what created the nations who spoke those different languages. That wasn’t in the first plan. It was the means to foil rebellion after the flood, from descending into wickedness again too quickly.

God was going to bring his Messiah into the world by means of an earthly woman, so in order to facilitate that, God made sure that his Messiah had ‘credentials’……i.e. several means to support who he was and where he came from, all prophesied long before it took place.

There was no need for God to identify any “people” as his own originally, because all humanity were going to be his “people”, but because of the division of the nations, he had to single out one nation, and one tribe, and a single location, for his Christ to come into the world. This among many other prophesies would prove that he was no mere human.
Because God had to bring his son into the world through a human mother, he wanted to make sure that the parents he chose were God fearing and would give his son the best spiritual life. Singling out Abraham as the father of that nation was more about the faith of the man himself, that anything his descendants did, because we know that Jesus was brought into the world into a nation that was far removed from the faith of Abraham…..but they were the only people on earth who were ruled by the laws of their God, set down through another faithful servant, Moses….yet their record of faithful obedience was appalling.

We actually learn more about God from how he responded to their errors, than anything they did right.

So as a nation, they served their purpose and produced the Messiah…and gave us all a record of how God deals with humans as a national collective……but due to their intractable nature, they lost their place in God’s arrangement, replaced by a spiritual nation who would faithfully do as God instructed.
The “Israel of God” we’re now made up of both Jewish and gentile Christians. (Gal 6:16)

The “body of Christ” is a specially chosen group who will rule with Christ in heaven…..it’s not a group that one can volunteer for, or to claim without knowledge of what it means to be selected by God for a “heavenly calling”…..(Heb 3:1) They know what that calling means, and why they are chosen to assist Jesus as fellow “kings and priests” in bringing the human race back into reconciliation with God during “the thousand years” that are allotted for the process. (Rev 20:6)

Rev 21:2-4 tells us what the end result will be……a restoration of all things, so that with the rule of God’s Kingdom, God’s will can “be done on earth as it is in heaven”…..it is what Jesus taught us to pray for, in a prayer that is often parroted off without much thought as to what it means….

God’s purpose for the earth and mankind upon it, never went away. The Kingdom is how we get back what Adam lost for all his children. That is the basic story from Genesis to Revelation.

Hi Aunty Jane,

I don`t think man can stop what God has planned for the nations. God is omniscient, (all knowing) and thus knew what man would do. As to the nations -

God `has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their pre-appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation.` (Acts 17: 26)

I like the comment you made about `credentials.` Would you like to enlarge on that please?

Remember it was God Himself who made Israel. It was not a nation before that.

Another good comment about us learning about God from how he responded to their errors.

Again, I say that God knew Israel could not live according to His laws, but that could not prevent God`s final purpose for them. Yes, to bring the Messiah, however, God has a purpose for Israel still to come. Can you think what that will be?

And I am so pleased to see you saying that we, the Body of Christ will be in heaven, our inheritance ruling with the Lord. Wonderful.

Thank you for such good comments.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Hi Aunty Jane,

I don`t think man can stop what God has planned for the nations. God is omniscient, (all knowing) and thus knew what man would do. As to the nations -

I believe that God’s Omniscience is something he can engage or not. Giving humans free will means that he cannot interfere with their choices….so it appears that he had contingencies worked out no matter what choices they made….it could have gone so many ways…he did not need to know their choices before they made them.…otherwise it wasn’t free will.
What if the angel who became satan had second thoughts and pulled himself up? (Response A)
What if Eve had refused the devil’s offer of the fruit, and obeyed God instead? (Response B)
What if Adam had refused to join his wife in rebellion? What would have happened to Eve? (Response C)

And we all know what happened to deserve Response D….every single “son/daughter of God“ was now involved in a virtual tug of war between God and his adversary, both in heaven and on earth…..

It all depended on their individual decisions. So, what decision did the humans have to make, and how many laws were there to break?

In the garden there were two trees….one that was life giving, and one was death dealing, both involved actions or decisions on the part of the humans, exercising their free will.
Even the devil was not prevented from exercising his free will.

God allowed the three rebels their freedom of choice, and we know that the ramifications were life altering for all concerned both in heaven and on earth….so why didn’t God simply eliminate the rebels from existence and start again? Wouldn’t that have been a better option? Why do you think he chose to allow this rebellion to continue, even handing rulership of the world over to the “god” they had chosen? (Luke 4:5-7)

God `has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their pre-appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation.` (Acts 17: 26)

Yes, we cannot question this Bible truth….all in existence today descended from the threefold division of the human family into the Japhetic, Hamitic, and Semitic races……all descended from Adam through Noah, and that cannot be disputed.
So once the humans were thus divided, God set the boundaries and territories for their habitation. But only one family line led to Israel….and to God’s Messiah….the family line of Shem.

I like the comment you made about `credentials.` Would you like to enlarge on that please?

All of the prophesies that were written in advance of the promised “seed of Abraham” had to be fulfilled in this one person. Some of those prophesies, Jesus himself had no control over, such as who his earthly parents would be….the place and manner of his birth and where his parents took him as a small child. Joseph e.g. was told to take the child to Egypt to fulfill a prophesy. (Matt 2:15) Jesus said that telling his apostles to “buy swords” and being “counted among lawless ones”, was to fufill prophesy. (Luke 22:37-38)

Remember it was God Himself who made Israel. It was not a nation before that.

God made the descendants of Jacob into the nation of Israel, taking on the name that God had given Jacob after his wrestling with an angel and prevailing….the sons of Israel were the sons of Jacob….

God prophesied to Abraham that he would make great nations come from him….and he did. Even Ishmael was made such a promise, also being a son of Abraham. Today’s Muslims are descended from him.

Another good comment about us learning about God from how he responded to their errors.

Its true…..what patience God showed, and what faithfulness to his covenant he demonstrate every time he had to correct them and put them back on track. Finally the promised Messiah came, but Israel had him murdered. Once his purpose towards fleshly Israel was completed, he cast them off and chose a new nation of Spiritual Israel to serve him. These would serve in a new heavenly Jerusalem, in a grand spiritual Temple, on a heavenly Mount Zion. (Heb 12:22-24)

Again, I say that God knew Israel could not live according to His laws, but that could not prevent God`s final purpose for them. Yes, to bring the Messiah, however, God has a purpose for Israel still to come. Can you think what that will be?

Since I do not believe that God has any further use for a nation that to this day still denies it’s own Messiah, I see Spiritual Israel taking their place as John B said to the Pharisees…..

Matt 3:7-10….
”But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance; and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father’; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.” (NASB)

The axe fell, and the tree was cut down……fleshly Israel was handed back to the blood spilling nations whom God will soon destroy. To this day she allies herself with nations whose worship she despises. God punished his nation for doing that in times past…..if Yahweh was still their God, they would have nothing to fear from any nation as their God would be giving them the victory. God has abandoned them and they are paying dearly for it, but it’s nothing new. (Matt 23:37-39)

And I am so pleased to see you saying that we, the Body of Christ will be in heaven, our inheritance ruling with the Lord. Wonderful.

Yes, it is indeed a wonderful prospect to be ruled by the best government that the human race has ever had.
But who makes up this government?
When Christians say “we” will rule with Christ, are they saying that all who identify as Christians will have that privilege?
In the nation of Israel, only two tribes could produce kings and priests…..the tribe of Judah was where the kings came from, and the tribe of Levi is were where God obtained his priests. No one could be both a King and a priest except by God’s decree.….
The King/Priest foretold in Psalm 110 is Jesus Christ…..who by God’s decree is a King/priest “after the order of Melchisedek“, forever.

Psalm 110:1-4….
”Jehovah said unto my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I put thine enemies [as] footstool of thy feet. Jehovah shall send the sceptre of thy might out of Zion: rule in the midst of thine enemies.. . . .Jehovah hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art priest for ever after the order of Melchisedek. The Lord at thy right hand will smite through kings in the day of his anger.” (DARBY)

“The order of Melchisedek“ was reference to a man who was “the priest of the Most High God” of more than three thousand eight hundred years ago…..why was he so important? No matter how important the original Melchizedek may have been in the history of true priests of the one living God, even still more important is the one whom Melchizedek prefigured……the one whom God swore to make a priest “after the manner of Melchizedek.” This priestly one like Melchizedek was said to be David’s “Lord”.…the future as yet unborn, Jesus Christ.
So from my studies, only those who are chosen to rule with Jesus in heaven will be rulers/priests in the kingdom to come. They will rule redeemed mankind on earth. (Rev 21:2-4)

I am not a “chosen one”, but to me, having any share in the coming kingdom is a privilege, and remaining on earth where God will restore his paradise is a great reward.…one I am eagerly looking forward to.

Thank you for such good comments.

Thank you for a good meaty topic.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yes.

It’s amazing what people miss when they read the Bible’s accounts….

God’s adversary was manifested in Eden right at the very beginning…..He wasn’t just allowed in the garden…he was stationed there as a “covering cherub”…a guardianship position which carried great responsibility.

Ezekiel 28: 13-17…
”Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “You had the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. “You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering . . . . .On the day that you were created They were prepared. “You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire. “You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you. “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I put you before kings, That they may see you.” (NASB)

This trusted angel abused his position and in observing the daily lives of the humans, he began to envy the worship God received from them, and plotted to gain it for himself.

After his own fall, God permitted satan to have a virtual free hand in testing out the entire human race, coming and going from heaven, bold as brass, as the book of Job clearly states. (Job 1:6; 2:1)

God allows satan to do bad things like murder as we see in Job.

Yes, God has allowed the devil to do his diabolical best to sever God’s close relations with his worshippers…..Job is a monumental example of an integrity keeper….who loved his God so much that even the death of his 10 children could not break it, as he figured (like Abraham) that God can raise the dead.

He had faith in the resurrection as he said……from the depths of his despair…..he cried out to his God…whom he mistakenly thought was bringing these trials upon him, not knowing what was happening behind the scenes. He prayed to die and go to the grave, so that he would end his suffering, but he maintained the hope of a resurrection for himself and his children.

Job 14:13-14…
“Oh that You would hide me in Sheol, That You would conceal me until Your wrath returns to You, That You would set a limit for me and remember me!
“If a man dies, will he live again? All the days of my struggle I will wait Until my change comes. “You will call, and I will answer You; You will long for the work of Your hands.” (NASB)

 

[Marilyn C]

I believe that God’s Omniscience is something he can engage or not. Giving humans free will means that he cannot interfere with their choices….so it appears that he had contingencies worked out no matter what choices they made….it could have gone so many ways…he did not need to know their choices before they made them.…otherwise it wasn’t free will.
What if the angel who became satan had second thoughts and pulled himself up? (Response A)
What if Eve had refused the devil’s offer of the fruit, and obeyed God instead? (Response B)
What if Adam had refused to join his wife in rebellion? What would have happened to Eve? (Response C)

And we all know what happened to deserve Response D….every single “son/daughter of God“ was now involved in a virtual tug of war between God and his adversary, both in heaven and on earth…..

It all depended on their individual decisions. So, what decision did the humans have to make, and how many laws were there to break?

In the garden there were two trees….one that was life giving, and one was death dealing, both involved actions or decisions on the part of the humans, exercising their free will.
Even the devil was not prevented from exercising his free will.

God allowed the three rebels their freedom of choice, and we know that the ramifications were life altering for all concerned both in heaven and on earth….so why didn’t God simply eliminate the rebels from existence and start again? Wouldn’t that have been a better option? Why do you think he chose to allow this rebellion to continue, even handing rulership of the world over to the “god” they had chosen? (Luke 4:5-7)

Yes, we cannot question this Bible truth….all in existence today descended from the threefold division of the human family into the Japhetic, Hamitic, and Semitic races……all descended from Adam through Noah, and that cannot be disputed.
So once the humans were thus divided, God set the boundaries and territories for their habitation. But only one family line led to Israel….and to God’s Messiah….the family line of Shem.

All of the prophesies that were written in advance of the promised “seed of Abraham” had to be fulfilled in this one person. Some of those prophesies, Jesus himself had no control over, such as who his earthly parents would be….the place and manner of his birth and where his parents took him as a small child. Joseph e.g. was told to take the child to Egypt to fulfill a prophesy. (Matt 2:15) Jesus said that telling his apostles to “buy swords” and being “counted among lawless ones”, was to fufill prophesy. (Luke 22:37-38)

God made the descendants of Jacob into the nation of Israel, taking on the name that God had given Jacob after his wrestling with an angel and prevailing….the sons of Israel were the sons of Jacob….

God prophesied to Abraham that he would make great nations come from him….and he did. Even Ishmael was made such a promise, also being a son of Abraham. Todays Muslims are descended from him.

Its true…..what patience God showed, and what faithfulness to his covenant did he demonstrate every time he had to correct them and put them back on track. Finally the promised Messiah came, but Israel had him murdered. Once his purpose towars fleshly Israel was completed, he cast them off and chose a new nation of Spiritual Israel to serve him. These would serve in a new heavenly Jerusalem, in a grand spiritual Temple, on a heavenly Mount Zion. (Heb 12:22-24)

Since I do not believe that God has any further use for a nation that to this day still denies it’s own Messiah, I see Spiritual Israel taking their place as John B said to the Pharisees…..

Matt 3:7-10….
”But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance; and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father’; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.” (NASB)

The axe fell, and the tree was cut down……fleshly Israel was handed back to the blood spilling nations whom God will soon destroy. To this day she allies herself with nations whose worship she despises. God punished his nation for doing that in times past…..if Yahweh was still their God, they would have nothing to fear from any nation as their God would be giving them the victory. God has abandoned them and they are paying dearly for it, but it’s nothing new. (Matt 23:37-39)


Yes, it is indeed a wonderful prospect to be ruled by the best government that the human race has ever had.
But who makes up this government?
When Christians say “we” will rule with Christ, are they saying that all who identify as Christians will have that privilege?
In the nation of Israel, only two tribes could produce kings and priests…..the tribe of Judah was where the kings came, from and the tribe of Levi is were where God obtained his priests. No one could be both a King and a priest except by God’s decree.….
The King/Priest foretold in Psalm 110 is Jesus Christ…..who by God’s decree is a King/priest “after the order of Melchisedek“, forever.

Psalm 110:1-4….
”Jehovah said unto my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I put thine enemies [as] footstool of thy feet. Jehovah shall send the sceptre of thy might out of Zion: rule in the midst of thine enemies.. . . .Jehovah hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art priest for ever after the order of Melchisedek. The Lord at thy right hand will smite through kings in the day of his anger.” (DARBY)

“The order of Melchisedek“ was reference to a man who was “the priest of the Most High God” of more than three thousand eight hundred years ago…..why was he so important? No matter how important the original Melchizedek may have been in the history of true priests of the one living God, even still more important is the one whom Melchizedek prefigured……the one whom God swore to make a priest “after the manner of Melchizedek.” This priestly one like Melchizedek was said to be David’s “Lord”.…the future as yet unborn, Jesus Christ.
So from my studies, only those who are chosen to rule with Jesus in heaven will be rulers/priests in the kingdom to come. They will rule redeemed mankind on earth. (Rev 21:2-4)

I am not a “chosen one”, but to me, having any share in the coming kingdom is a privilege, and remaining on earth where God will restore his paradise is a great reward.…one I am eagerly looking forward to.


Thank you for a good meaty topic.

You have indeed written some very good thoughts. Well done. A few points I would like to draw your attention to.

I believe that man or devil could not stop God`s purposes for - the nations, Israel and the Body of Christ from being fulfilled. That would make man and the devil greater than God.

So, God will yet turn rebellious Israel to Himself. God knows that Israel does not have the capacity as fallen men to be righteous thus he will turn them again to Himself and give them a new heart as He said He would. (Ez. 36: 22 - 28)

Then, all who are in Christ are chosen. No one is more special than another for all are redeemed by the precious blood of Jesus.

So good to read of your comments regarding kingpriests. I agree fully. it is a wonderful revelation.

I will answer your great question next.

 

[Marilyn C]

God allowed the three rebels their freedom of choice, and we know that the ramifications were life altering for all concerned both in heaven and on earth….so why didn’t God simply eliminate the rebels from existence and start again? Wouldn’t that have been a better option? Why do you think he chose to allow this rebellion to continue, even handing rulership of the world over to the “god” they had chosen? (Luke 4:5-7)

Such a great question. God`s purpose is all about having Christ bringing everything in heaven and earth under His rulership. (Eph. 1: 9 & 10)

Now we know that God is Just. However, He must be seen to be Just. (righteous) Can man in the time before the flood say that they could have become righteous if given more time? No, because God waited till evil came to a head, then brought judgment. God also gave the people on the earth much time to also enter the ark.

Then after God gave Noah (& man) the responsibility to rule, (Gen. 9: 5 - 7) (murder is the greatest and thus all lesser crimes are under that.) So we see God made His nation to show the nations how to rule righteously. They finally rebelled and went into exile. God then has given the Gentile nations a certain time to show whether they can rule righteously. (Dan. 2: 37 - 45) The times of the Gentiles.

As we can see in history and today the Gentile nations are not ruling righteously. Thus, God will judge them. Then God will set up His righteous rulership through Israel over the nations in the millennium. And again we see that even though mankind has God`s righteous rulership over them and the devil is bound, mankind in the end rebels and tries to get rid of Israel. God sends fire as judgment.

Thus, after the great white throne and the new heavens and new earth are created, we see God`s righteous rulership in every realm under the sovereign rule of Christ.

1. On the earth - Israel over the nations. (Rev. 21: 24)

2. The Universe - the New Jerusalem with the Old Testament Saints. (Heb. 11: 16)

3. The Third heaven - the Body of Christ ruling with Christ on His own throne. (Rev. 3: 21)

So, God has been shown to be Just (righteous) throughout the ages and given man, nations and Israel and even angels every opportunity to show they can rule righteously. All failed thus it is all through Christ`s sacrifice that any can be given a place in God`s great kingdom.

 

[Taken]

Hi taken,

Good that you have commented on authority and power. I agree that all will submit to the Lord who is sovereign over all.

Now would you like to comment on what you think God has planned for each group in eternity?

Hi Marilyn,

Group and Eternity … (in brief)

Groups (Kinds)
* Man / Angels / Animals
* All Man Kind (triune)
~ IS Natural bodily Blood Life
~ HAS Natural spirit Life (ie.Natural Truths)
~ HAS Supernatural Soul Life (Gods Breath).

All of ManKIND ~
~ Natural Body - Blood Life & Body, Sentenced to Death / Destruction / Forgotten.
- Natural truths (ie spirits) - Sentenced to Death / Destruction, Forgotten.
- Souls - Life Return to God, souls Sentenced to Death / Destruction / Forgotten.


Mans Offering, (from God)
Mans Offering (Regarding Life “OF”);
* body, soul, spirit;
~ Forgiveness (By, Through, Of Gods Power / Authority).
~ Covering (With Gods Power, Light)
~ Cleansing (With Jesus’ untainted Blood)
~ Restoration (By, Through, Of Gods Power)
~ Branding (Marking/Sealing), By, Through, Of Gods Authority, Promise / Word, Power).
~ Redemption (God Claiming / Taking: What man Offered TO FREELY agree TO Give God, TO HAVE, MAKE and KEEP ).
~ Body ANEW, From Mortal TO Immortal, (By, Through, Of, Gods Power, Authority, Promise / Word.)
~ Soul SAVED (By, Through, Of Gods Grace, Authority, Power.)
~ Spirit QUICKENED (Born AGAIN By, Through, Of: Gods Seed, Power, Authority.)

ManKINDS… natural body IS his …
To; feed, nourish, starve, mark, mutilate, beat, burn, break, wound, stab, shoot, Injure, sooth, walk, run, sit, sex, sexual perversion, abstain, move, idle…kill….
** AND (while Naturally Bodily ALIVE)…to “Freely, Willfully, Heartfully, Offer, Give… his BODY TO The Lord God Almighty”….OR NOT.

* Mankind… Regardless of Era, of Race (ISRAEL or Gentile), of Gender, of Age, of Political Affiliation, of Religious Religious Affiliation, of Educational Degrees, of Talents, Of Fame, Of Fortune, Of Status…etc.

Bottom Line… IS:
Has an Individual Freely Chosen…TO:
Work the ONE WORK “of” God”??
WHICH IS: BELIEF “IN” Almighty God AND “IN” the Lord Jesus”.

(To elaborate a bit for clarification…
Belief…IN Whom God sent…
Is Belief…IN God, (the sender) and “Jesus” (the sent).

John 6:
[28] Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
[29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Noting…the express “identity”…
God AND JESUS.

Noting…For SUCH Belief…——>

1 Thes. 4:
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Noting… For THOSE WHO Believe, IN God, IN JESUS,…AND IN Jesus IS THE CHRIST …

1 Thes. 4:
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Many Believe in God, Believe Jesus was A Prophet Sent by God…but it is Few That Believe Jesus IS the Christ.
* Rapture… Believers Jesus IS the Christ, Raised by the Lord Jesus.
* First Resurrection…Believers Jesus was Sent by God,
Raised by God.
* Second Resurrection…Not With, God or Jesus, or Christ. dead body raised, SEE the Lord, Believe, Bow, Worship, Condemned, Life Departed, Body, Soul Destroyed, Forgotten

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Aunty Jane]

I believe that man or devil could not stop God`s purposes for - the nations, Israel and the Body of Christ from being fulfilled. That would make man and the devil greater than God.

I completely agree, which is why God takes a different route sometimes in order to accomplish his purpose.

The “nations” were never supposed to be divided up in the earth and speaking languages foreign to one another, as all were originally to be brothers and sisters working togehter to tend the earth and to extend the borders of their Edenic paradise till the whole world looked like the garden that God planted……and they were to keep it in pristine condition for all time to come. Filling the earth with their children and living a long and satisfying life with peak performance in mental and physical health, but more importantly brimming with spiritual health.

So, God will yet turn rebellious Israel to Himself. God knows that Israel does not have the capacity as fallen men to be righteous thus he will turn them again to Himself and give them a new heart as He said He would. (Ez. 36: 22 - 28)

I don’t believe that natural Israel has a place any longer in God’s purpose….they had so much time to get their act together, but they never could stay on track for long…..in the end they had tried God‘s patience to the limit and he let them go…..he did not eliminate individuals from the nation from gaining access to his Kingdom, and putting faith in Christ Jesus, but collectively the nation had done their dash…and they continue to this day, to deny the Christ.

As Paul said…in Rom 2:28-29…
”For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision something on the outside, on the flesh. 29  But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. That person’s praise comes from God, not from people.”

Gal 3:26-29….
”You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s offspring, heirs with reference to a promise.”

There is neither Jew nor Greek, neither male nor female in heaven….if you belong to Christ you are really Abraham’s offspring”….so nothing to do with being related to natural Israel.

Rom 9:6-8…
”However, it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who descend from Israel are really “Israel.” 7 Neither are they all children because they are Abraham’s offspring; rather, “What will be called your offspring will be through Isaac.” 8 That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the offspring.”

Jesus also told the Samaritan woman about where people will worship in the future….
John 4:20-23….
”Our forefathers worshipped on this mountain, but you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where people must worship.” 21 Jesus said to her: “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation begins with the Jews. 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him.”

So, salvation began with the Jews…but it did not finish with them…..rather than the fleshly Jews and the geographical location of Jerusalem being the focus of our worship, Jesus indicated that no geographical location would be the seat of God’s worship in the future….Christianity is a global religion and mankind will be ruled from heaven by Jesus and his fellow kings and priests, who are all individually chosen by God.

I believe that you looking to the wrong Israel….

Then, all who are in Christ are chosen. No one is more special than another for all are redeemed by the precious blood of Jesus.

Because those who are to rule with Christ are individually chosen, we can rest assured that God has chosen the very best rulers we could ever have. There is no envy when all have the blessing of God, no matter whether their role is in heaven or on earth.

As the angel said to John when he bowed down to him….”Do not do that, all I am is a fellow servant with you and your brothers” (Rev 19:10) So, if powerful angels are “fellow servants” with us humans here on earth, where is there room for envy?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Such a great question. God`s purpose is all about having Christ bringing everything in heaven and earth under His rulership. (Eph. 1: 9 & 10)

God’s purpose in creating humankind on this earth will ultimately be fulfilled. Allowing all that he offered to Adam and his wife to be restored…..they threw away the gift of life and suffered a death from which they will never be resurrected, but thanks to the sacrifice of Jesus, their children will reap the reward of everlasting life, rather than the continuing death sentence that was passed on to them.

The thousand year reign of Christ and his elect will bring everything back together. Heaven and earth will become harmoniously aligned….serving God’s eternal purpose without interference.

Then after God gave Noah (& man) the responsibility to rule, (Gen. 9: 5 - 7) (murder is the greatest and thus all lesser crimes are under that.) So we see God made His nation to show the nations how to rule righteously. They finally rebelled and went into exile. God then has given the Gentile nations a certain time to show whether they can rule righteously. (Dan. 2: 37 - 45) The times of the Gentiles.

I have a different view of about God’s rulership of this earth. Going back to the beginning, we see that God never gave man dominion over one another, but only over the animal kingdom, as Jeremiah recorded….

”I well know, O Jehovah, that man’s way does not belong to him.
It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.” (Jer 10:23)

Man was designed to be ruled by his Creator…..which is why we see corruption enter the picture when humans dominate over other humans…..”power corrupts….and absolute power corrupts absolutely.“ We know how true that is.

We were all given free will, but abusing that meant robbing others of their free will…..every single sin committed is an abuse of someone’s free will. When we know what is right but we fail to do it, that is where sin lurks….and imposing our will on others also leads to problems in marriage, friendships and even governmentally. When laws are imposed that stifle free will, and free speech, we feel betrayed and vulnerable.

By allowing the devil to rule mankind, we see the lessons very clearly…..man cannot rule himself independently of his Maker. Misuse of power always leads to conflict.

We were never supposed to know evil either…..because God tried to warn the humans that this knowledge would never benefit them. The knowledge of evil would lead to evil deeds, and pollute the earth with violence and bloodshed….and that has been a fact of life since Cain killed his brother.

As we can see in history and today the Gentile nations are not ruling righteously. Thus, God will judge them. Then God will set up His righteous rulership through Israel over the nations in the millennium. And again we see that even though mankind has God`s righteous rulership over them and the devil is bound, mankind in the end rebels and tries to get rid of Israel. God sends fire as judgment.

The promise that God made to Abraham was not just to bless his own descendants, but all mankind.

He told Abraham…”And by means of your offspring all nations of the earth will obtain a blessing for themselves because you have listened to my voice.’”

So it never was just about Israel….they would produce the Messiah but like all covenants that God made with his people, there were conditions.
Through his servant Moses, God told his people at Mount Sinai….Exodus 19:5-6…

”Now if you will strictly obey my voice and keep my covenant, you will certainly become my special property out of all peoples, for the whole earth belongs to me. 6 You will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you are to say to the Israelites.”

Do you see that little word…”if”? Those were the terms and conditions…..Israel failed on every level.
God then chose a new “Israel”…..one who would faithfully keep his covenants. (Gal 6:16)
The “Israel of God“ were not just Jews, but included the gentiles as God promised Abraham….that through his seed, “all nations” would be blessed.

 

[Davy]

Lucifer drew a third of the angels with him when he was cast out of the third heaven. That invisible realm was created before the visible realm. (Col. 1: 16)

Where does The Bible say Lucifer was cast out of the third heaven? I hope you don't believe that's what the Revelation 12:7-17 Scripture is about, because that casting out has yet to happen. And it amazes me how some deceive themselves about that Scripture, just because it mentions the idea of Satan being cast out.

And of course the Heavenly realm, where God and the angels dwell, existed before this earthly realm, but that's beside the subject.

I find that many brethren miss reading that Revelation 12:3-4 timing properly about the time of the old world when Lucifer first rebelled against God. Lucifer created the very first sin, which is what Apostle John is pointing to in 1 John 3:8 that the devil sinned from the beginning. And that happened in the world of old, the 1st earth age. Apostle Peter detailed 3 world earth ages in 2 Peter 3. We at present since Genesis 1:2 have been in the 2nd world earth age.

Some archaeological discoveries of buried cities are of the time back before the flood of Noah's day, and then some go back further to the 1st earth age when Lucifer rebelled, and God ended that old world. Dr. Robert Schoch, professor of geology at the University of Boston, has proven that the Great Sphinx original construction goes back at least 10,000 to 12,000 years B.C., back to the previous Ice Age.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Marilyn,

Group and Eternity … (in brief)

Groups (Kinds)
* Man / Angels / Animals
* All Man Kind (triune)
~ IS Natural bodily Blood Life
~ HAS Natural spirit Life (ie.Natural Truths)
~ HAS Supernatural Soul Life (Gods Breath).

All of ManKIND ~
~ Natural Body - Blood Life & Body, Sentenced to Death / Destruction / Forgotten.
- Natural truths (ie spirits) - Sentenced to Death / Destruction, Forgotten.
- Souls - Life Return to God, souls Sentenced to Death / Destruction / Forgotten.


Mans Offering, (from God)
Mans Offering (Regarding Life “OF”);
* body, soul, spirit;
~ Forgiveness (By, Through, Of Gods Power / Authority).
~ Covering (With Gods Power, Light)
~ Cleansing (With Jesus’ untainted Blood)
~ Restoration (By, Through, Of Gods Power)
~ Branding (Marking/Sealing), By, Through, Of Gods Authority, Promise / Word, Power).
~ Redemption (God Claiming / Taking: What man Offered TO FREELY agree TO Give God, TO HAVE, MAKE and KEEP ).
~ Body ANEW, From Mortal TO Immortal, (By, Through, Of, Gods Power, Authority, Promise / Word.)
~ Soul SAVED (By, Through, Of Gods Grace, Authority, Power.)
~ Spirit QUICKENED (Born AGAIN By, Through, Of: Gods Seed, Power, Authority.)

ManKINDS… natural body IS his …
To; feed, nourish, starve, mark, mutilate, beat, burn, break, wound, stab, shoot, Injure, sooth, walk, run, sit, sex, sexual perversion, abstain, move, idle…kill….
** AND (while Naturally Bodily ALIVE)…to “Freely, Willfully, Heartfully, Offer, Give… his BODY TO The Lord God Almighty”….OR NOT.

* Mankind… Regardless of Era, of Race (ISRAEL or Gentile), of Gender, of Age, of Political Affiliation, of Religious Religious Affiliation, of Educational Degrees, of Talents, Of Fame, Of Fortune, Of Status…etc.

Bottom Line… IS:
Has an Individual Freely Chosen…TO:
Work the ONE WORK “of” God”??
WHICH IS: BELIEF “IN” Almighty God AND “IN” the Lord Jesus”.

(To elaborate a bit for clarification…
Belief…IN Whom God sent…
Is Belief…IN God, (the sender) and “Jesus” (the sent).

John 6:
[28] Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
[29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Noting…the express “identity”…
God AND JESUS.

Noting…For SUCH Belief…——>

1 Thes. 4:
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Noting… For THOSE WHO Believe, IN God, IN JESUS,…AND IN Jesus IS THE CHRIST …

1 Thes. 4:
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Many Believe in God, Believe Jesus was A Prophet Sent by God…but it is Few That Believe Jesus IS the Christ.
* Rapture… Believers Jesus IS the Christ, Raised by the Lord Jesus.
* First Resurrection…Believers Jesus was Sent by God,
Raised by God.
* Second Resurrection…Not With, God or Jesus, or Christ. dead body raised, SEE the Lord, Believe, Bow, Worship, Condemned, Life Departed, Body, Soul Destroyed, Forgotten

Glory to God,
Taken

Yes, all for the Body of Christ. However, not everyone in the ages past knew of Jesus and Hi sacrifice for them. They will be judged on their works (motives, (Rev. 20: 12) If they looked to God and did right, they are covered by Jesus' sacrifice and will go to the New earth. (Rev. 21: 24)

 

[Marilyn C]

I completely agree, which is why God takes a different route sometimes in order to accomplish his purpose.

The “nations” were never supposed to be divided up in the earth and speaking languages foreign to one another, as all were originally to be brothers and sisters working togehter to tend the earth and to extend the borders of their Edenic paradise till the whole world looked like the garden that God planted……and they were to keep it in pristine condition for all time to come. Filling the earth with their children and living a long and satisfying life with peak performance in mental and physical health, but more importantly brimming with spiritual health.

I don’t believe that natural Israel has a place any longer in God’s purpose….they had so much time to get their act together, but they never could stay on track for long…..in the end they had tried God‘s parience to the limit and he let them go…..he did not eliminate individuals from the nation from gaining access to his Kingdom, and putting faith in Christ Jesus, but collectively the nation had done their dash…and they continue to this day, to deny the Christ.

As Paul said…in Rom 2:28-29…
”For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision something on the outside, on the flesh. 29  But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. That person’s praise comes from God, not from people.”

Gal 3:26-29….
”You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s offspring, heirs with reference to a promise.”

There is neither Jew nor Greek, neither male nor female in heaven….if you belong to Christ you are really Abraham’s offspring”….so nothing to do with being related to natural Israel.

Rom 9:6-8…
”However, it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who descend from Israel are really “Israel.” 7 Neither are they all children because they are Abraham’s offspring; rather, “What will be called your offspring will be through Isaac.” 8 That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the offspring.”

Jesus also told the Samaritan woman about where people will worship in the future….
John 4:20-23….
”Our forefathers worshipped on this mountain, but you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where people must worship.” 21 Jesus said to her: “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation begins with the Jews. 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him.”

So, salvation began with the Jews…but it did not finish with them…..rather than the fleshly Jews and the geographical location of Jerusalem being the focus of our worship, Jesus indicated that no geographical location would be the seat of God’s worship in the future….Christianity is a global religion and mankind will be ruled from heaven by Jesus and his fellow kings and priests, who are all individually chosen by God.

I believe that you looking to the wrong Israel….

Because those who are to rule with Christ are individually chosen, we can rest assured that God has chosen the very best rulers we could ever have. There is no envy when all have the blessing of God, no matter whether their role is in heaven or on earth.

As the angel said to John when he bowed down to him….”Do not so that , all I am is a fellow servant with you and your brothers” (Rev 19:10) So, if powerful angels are “fellow servants” with us humans here on earth, where is there room for envy?

God made the nations through the genetics of Adam and Eve. That is where the differences come from.

God knew that Israel could never completely obey Him for they are fallen humanity. That would be unfair of God to expect them fully obey Him. God was just, righteous in revealing to them their great need. Thus, God will reveal Himself as their Messiah one day and rule through them over the nations of the earth s promised.

No one in the Body of Christ can do anything except the Lord does it through us by His Holy Spirit. Thus, no one can boast. No one is more special or chosen than another in the Body. Some have more public gifts while others behind the scenes as it were. But all by the Holy Spirit. Only Jesus gets the glory.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Where does The Bible say Lucifer was cast out of the third heaven? I hope you don't believe that's what the Revelation 12:7-17 Scripture is about, because that casting out has yet to happen. And it amazes me how some deceive themselves about that Scripture, just because it mentions the idea of Satan being cast out.

For starters I cannot see where the devil is ever called Lucifer in the Bible.

The Hebrew word translated “Lucifer” means “shining one.” The Septuagint uses the Greek word that means “bringer of dawn.” Hence, some translations render the original Hebrew “morning star” or “Daystar.” But Jerome’s Latin Vulgate uses “Lucifer” (light bearer), and this accounts for the appearance of that term in various versions of the Bible.

That the description “shining one” is given to a man and not to a spirit creature is further seen by the statement: “Down to Sheol you will be brought.” Sheol is the common grave of mankind—not a place occupied by Satan the Devil. Moreover, those seeing Lucifer brought into this condition ask: “Is this the man that was agitating the earth?” Clearly, “Lucifer” refers to a human, not to a spirit creature. (Isaiah 14:4, 15, 16)

I don’t know about the “third heaven” either….but I do know that satan has been cast out of heaven because Rev 12:7-12 tells us that his activities are betrayed by the disintegrating of human society and the increase in bloodshed and violence…along with all the signs that Jesus gave concerning his return (Matt 24:3-14)…..the evidence of satan’s anger and angst is because he is running out of time. How much worse can we expect life on earth to get….? We have in this age, developed the capacity to end life as we know it with the press of a button….and an appetite for weaponry that demonstrates their lust for power….

I find that many brethren miss reading that Revelation 12:3-4 timing properly about the time of the old world when Lucifer first rebelled against God. Lucifer created the very first sin, which is what Apostle John is pointing to in 1 John 3:8 that the devil sinned from the beginning. And that happened in the world of old, the 1st earth age. Apostle Peter detailed 3 world earth ages in 2 Peter 3. We at present since Genesis 1:2 have been in the 2nd world earth age.

Yes, the timing is important….But suggesting that there was an age before Genesis is a bit of a stretch.
It renders the Genesis story meaningless, and the prophesy in Gen 3:15, with the need for a redeemer to give a devil his death blow after satan inflicted a heel wound.

1 John 3:8 is “the beginning” of the devil’s defection…..he was a once faithful angel who saw an opportunity with the creation of lower creatures, to gain worship for himself. That happened in Eden, as he was stationed there as a “covering cherub”….an angel of high rank who was given a position of responsibility and guardianship. He abused his position to fulfill his own fantasy of becoming a god.

If there were humans in existence before Genesis tells us about Adam and Eve’s rebellion, then they would be sinless and still alive somewhere….only Adam’s offspring inherited sin and death….(Rom 5:12)

Some archaeological discoveries of buried cities are of the time back before the flood of Noah's day, and then some go back further to the 1st earth age when Lucifer rebelled, and God ended that old world. Dr. Robert Schoch, professor of geology at the University of Boston, has proven that the Great Sphinx original construction goes back at least 10,000 to 12,000 years B.C., back to the previous Ice Age.

Sorry, but that is not what the Bible teaches at all…..
Satan did not rebel until after Adam and his wife were created….God never ended another world before that….
That sounds like myth and legend, rather than Bible truth.

Are the scientists carbon dating methods giving them the correct answers?

Peter tells us that God used the water canopy that surrounded the earth, (suspended there during creation) to produce the water for the flood. Added to that were the underground aquifers which also came to the surface.

The earth was once covered in water as Genesis states, (Gen 1:2) so God “divided the waters from the waters” (v 6) to provide this canopy that shielded the earth from cosmic radiation and created an overall temperate climate, rather like a hot house (which explains why they have dug up palm trees in Siberia).
This is a climate in which life thrives. There wasn’t even any need for rain as the humidity watered the entire surface of the land. (Gen 2:5-6) God prepared this moist atmosphere before there was even any vegetation or animals.

Once the water canopy was gone, (as a result of the flood) having increased levels of radiation and radical climate change, would naturally affect all life on earth, as radiation ages things.
Carbon readings would have been very different after the flood, than before it, throwing their dating methods off.

It also explains where the water went in the preparation of the earth, to expose dry land, and habitable places for God’s land dwellers to live (including us). It was lifted up into the space above earth’s atmosphere and suspended there “by the word of God”. (2 Peter 3:5-6)

And if God used that suspended water to deluge the earth, doesn’t that explain why there is concern that the polar ice caps are melting today…?…which would again flood the earth….?
The poles are magnetic, so this is where the water went after the flood. It was probably magnetically drawn up into the polar regions and snap frozen, as the lid of the hot house was no longer there to keep the temperature at a stable level. If you think about it, it seems quite logical.

 

[Aunty Jane]

God made the nations through the genetics of Adam and Eve. That is where the differences come from.

Of course, as Adam said…she had to “become the mother of everyone living”. (Gen 3:20)

God knew that Israel could never completely obey Him for they are fallen humanity. That would be unfair of God to expect them fully obey Him.

As ancient servants of God proved faithful and obedient, even when God asked difficult things of them….what excuse did Israel have? It wasn’t that they had no good examples….

Noah was asked to build an enormous structure by hand, with rudimentary tools to save his family and all the animal kinds that God brought to Noah for preservation. He alone was a man of faith at that time when demonic interference had ruined everything, and this made God feel regret that he had created them.
So he took care of the problem and started again….with a clean slate.

Abraham was asked to sacrifice his son, which he attempted to carry out, but God stopped him, telling him he had passed the test.

Job had to undergo trails what no human should ever have had to endure….but he passed the test and kept his faith, leaving us a model to follow. How many of us will ever have to undergo what Job did?

Moses was told to go the the leader of a world empire, seen as a god to the Egyptians, but he courageously did as God asked him to, and after ten displays of Jehovah’s mighty power, he led Israel out of slavery and eventually into the Promised Land….but it was always through disobedience and punishments that God kept them going. Even in their 40 years in the wilderness, God fed them and provided water for millions of them. Their clothing and shoes never wore out and eventually, after serving their time, they crossed the Jordan into the Promised Land…but what awaited them? More trouble which became their middle name.

God’s covenants had conditions and Israel failed them, rendering the contract null and void….only because of his promise to Abraham did God keep them in existence, until they had produced his Messiah…it was all downhill from there. After Jesus sentenced the religious leaders to “Gehenna” only a “remnant” of natural Israel were found worthy of the Kingdom.…as it was prophesied.

You have a misguided view of Israel if you think that the nation of today has any further part in God’s purpose for the future. They have much blood on their hands and alliances with nations whose worship they despise. (Isa 1:15) There is no saving natural Israel…..God chose a replacement…spiritual Israelite. (Gal 6:16)

God was just, righteous in revealing to them their great need. Thus, God will reveal Himself as their Messiah one day and rule through them over the nations of the earth s promised.

I won’t hold my breath waiting for that….they murdered their Messiah and Jesus served the same God that they did. (Acts 4:27) To this day Jews reject Jesus as Messiah. Having encountered Jewish posters on other sites, I can tell you that many to this day have very strong negative feelings about Jesus, having denied him for so long, it is hard to imagine the whole nation now turning to him…it would be like having a love fest with Hamas.

No one in the Body of Christ can do anything except the Lord does it through us by His Holy Spirit.

True…the body of Christ is one united brotherhood found globally in every nation, all have “one Lord, one faith, one baptism”. The disunited church system produced by Christendom, has a dismembered body that is carved up among many denominations who do not all believe the same truth.

Thus, no one can boast. No one is more special or chosen than another in the Body. Some have more public gifts while others behind the scenes as it were. But all by the Holy Spirit. Only Jesus gets the glory.

The body of Christ are the rulers and priests in the kingdom (Rev 20:6)….they will have earthly subjects…(Rev 21:2-4) bringing redeemed mankind back into reconciliation with their Creator, restoring God’s first purpose for the human race on this carefully, and lovingly prepared planet….and reinstating everlasting life in paradise for them. It’s a wonderful hope, no matter whether you are heaven bound or earth bound….we will love the life that God has given us.

 

[ewq1938]

For starters I cannot see where the devil is ever called Lucifer in the Bible.

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Who else but Satan will literally fall from heaven?

Isaiah 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Who else but Satan could ascend into heaven like he did in Job?


Isaiah 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Paul wrote that the Antichrist will also seek to do this and whether the AC is Satan or a Satan possessed man it still is a reference to Satan.


Isaiah 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.


Exactly what Rev 20 depicts happening to Satan!

Isaiah 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
Isaiah 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Satan bound for a thousand years and I can easily imagine people saying this about him!

That's far too many coincidences to just be about some old king of Babylon as all of it exactly pertains to Satan and what is going to happen to him and what he tries to accomplish.

The serpent was in the garden of Eden.
Lucifer was in the garden of Eden.
Satan was the serpent in the garden of Eden.

Satan fell from heaven.
Lucifer fell from heaven.

Satan will be cast into a pit.
Lucifer will be cast into a pit.

So how exactly is Lucifer not Satan?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Who else but Satan will literally fall from heaven?

You misunderstood…..satan is not called “Lucifer”, as I explained….only Bibles based on the KJV use that name for satan. Look it up in other translations….

Isaiah 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Who else but Satan could ascend into heaven like he did in Job?

The King of Tyre also emulated satan in his proud arrogance….(Ezekiel 28:13-17)

Isaiah 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Paul wrote that the Antichrist will also seek to do this and whether the AC is Satan or a Satan possessed man it still is a reference to Satan.


Isaiah 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.


Exactly what Rev 20 depicts happening to Satan!

Not exactly….sheol is not a place where satan can go…..it is the place for the human dead.…”the common grave”.

Isaiah 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
Isaiah 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Satan bound for a thousand years and I can easily imagine people saying this about him!

That's far too many coincidences to just be about some old king of Babylon as all of it exactly pertains to Satan and what is going to happen to him and what he tries to accomplish.

The serpent was in the garden of Eden.
Lucifer was in the garden of Eden.
Satan was the serpent in the garden of Eden.

Satan fell from heaven.
Lucifer fell from heaven.

Satan will be cast into a pit.
Lucifer will be cast into a pit.

So how exactly is Lucifer not Satan?

As was mentioned before….the Hebrew word translated “Lucifer” means “shining one.” The Septuagint uses the Greek word that means “bringer of dawn.…..Hence, some translations render the original Hebrew “morning star” or “Daystar.” But Jerome’s Latin Vulgate uses “Lucifer” (light bearer), and this accounts for the appearance of that term in various versions of the Bible.

That the description “shining one” is given to a man and not to a spirit creature is further seen by the statement: “Down to Sheol you will be brought.” Sheol is the common grave of mankind—not a place occupied by Satan the Devil. Moreover, those seeing Lucifer brought into this condition ask: “Is this the man that was agitating the earth?” Clearly, “Lucifer” refers to a human, not to a spirit creature. (Isaiah 14:4, 15, 16)

The expression “shining one,” or “Lucifer,” is found in what Isaiah prophetically commanded the Israelites to pronounce as a “proverbial saying against the king of Babylon.” Thus, it is part of a saying primarily directed at the Babylonian dynasty. Why is such a lofty description given to the Babylonian dynasty?

The king of Babylon was to be called the “shining one” only after his fall and in a taunting way.
So great was the arrogance of the dynasty that it is portrayed as bragging: “To the heavens I shall go up. Above the stars of God I shall lift up my throne, and I shall sit down upon the mountain of meeting, in the remotest parts of the north. . . . I shall make myself resemble the Most High.” (Isa 14:13-14)

You mentioned Isaiah 14:15 as well, but you have the word “hell” in your translation, so we see the same problem….there is no “hell“ in Jewish Scripture….this is “Sheol” rendered in the Jewish Tanakh as “the grave”….as it is in Eccl 9:5, 10.

”Hell “ is a pagan Greek concept adopted later by both Judaism and “the early church”…..not to be confused with anything Jesus taught. Since there are no immortal souls found in the Bible, there is nowhere for the dead to go, but to rest in Sheol awaiting their resurrection. It is not a place where the dead are conscious.

Jesus calls all the dead from their graves…..not somewhere else. (John 5:28-29)

 

[ewq1938]

That the description “shining one” is given to a man and not to a spirit creature

satan is a man. Not a huamn man but an angel, and all angels look like human men.

You mentioned Isaiah 14:15 as well, but you have the word “hell” in your translation, so we see the same problem….there is no “hell“ in Jewish Scripture….this is “Sheol” rendered in the Jewish Tanakh as “the grave”….as it is in Eccl 9:5, 10.

Same difference. hell/pit/sheol. The point is the same things written about satan are written about Lucifer. satan has many names and Lucifer is one of them and may be his original name.