Sister-n-Christ
Well-Known Member
Another thread that assails the gospel through other means.
You don't know what you're talking about.
You don't know what you're talking about.
OSAS : Gnostic Heresy
- Thread starter GracePeace
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Big Boy Johnson
Well-Known Member
The New Testament does not say people that teach falsely, deceiving others are still saved or accepted by the Lord.
In fact, heresy is on God's list in Galatians 5:19-21 of things that keep people out of the Kingdom of God as is one of the works of the flesh
Yeah, but God is merciful--eg, Peter believed only Jews could be saved, and that he was under the Law, and had to keep the dietary law, but, in due time, the Spirit of Truth led him into the truth of the Gospel, gave him a vision, and Peter learned that he was not under the Law, and that Gentiles could be saved.
The teachers of OSAS, also, have a good emphasis that they place on God as Savior, and, as I outline in "Oddly OSAS", God can forget righteousness, so, when someone falls away, it becomes, in a very real sense, that they never were saved, so OSAS is partially true. So it's a partial truth, and, if correctly understood, it does not necessarily inhibit people from walking in righteousness for God's glory, so it's not necessarily as harmful as one might think--definitely not as to make them "anathema", IMO.
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The major issue, I think, with "deception" is if it leads to unrighteousness (eg, by falling from grace , as with the Galatians--Grace is how we walk in righteousness in the New Covenant); but if someone says "God justified me by grace, not my works, and now He works in me to will and to do for His good pleasure, so I will persevere in righteousness", though it is not entirely accurate, because the verse says "obey for it is God at work in you", they expect righteousness of believers, so it is not necessarily as dangerous as it could be. If they are saying "God is kind" and they are expecting to act in kindness (righteousness), then that is not "damnable" heresy, even if it is not entirely inaccurate.
Big Boy Johnson
Well-Known Member
He doesn't honor His Word when He says those that do these things shall not inherit the Kingdom?
If they do not confess and forsake their sin, there is no mercy. Let me know if you need bible references.
Some think they can live in sin and still be saved, and the Lord calls false doctrine sin.
Any and all teaching contrary to what God says in His Word IS deception. No way around that.
This is WHY false teaching is tolerated in churches today because everyone is scared to call out false teaching
Do what? I gave the example of Peter, so, clearly, I'm not saying anything like what you're talking about (ie, a straw man of my position).
The mercy I referred to was in God's dealing with Peter--answer that, don't change topics or ascribe views I never espoused to me.
I think there are different viee of OSAS--the OSAS crowd here says they believe God will keep them and cause them to persevere in faith and in righteousness, as far as I know. The other view of OSAS, that it doesn't matter if you live in sin, I would condemn just as you would condemn it.
Well, yes and no : I don't think anyone has perfect doctrine, but I don't also think it is always intentional; God was still with Peter in his ignorant erroneous beliefs; inaccuracies in doctrine become problematic insofar as they draw people away from worship of God and/or righteousness.
It is frustrating when people don't agree with us--esp when we bring all our evidence out, so, then, we think they're being intentionally deceptive, or dishonest, but you have to think that that's just how people are made, where they struggle (including me) to see certain truths, but God patiently endures our inability to see things His way, bc of how we were raised. I struggle to understand the core truth of Christianity, bc I was raised by a Muslim terrorist who was extremely harsh with me, for instance, so that gives me an unbalanced and unfair view of God, and how He can require things of me, and threaten punishment if i don't, without that leading to me viewing God as I did my step dad, as if He was always irritated with me and not on my side but against me.
Anyway, I said all that to try to convey my view of OSAS people, and that I hope you can deal with the others here without using provocative inflammatory words, which destroys the discussion.
I hope we don't have to remain long on this tangent.
Big Boy Johnson
Well-Known Member
Big difference between someone not knowing and us today seeing we have all God wants man to know in the Bible and have no excuse for accepting false teachings much less walking in them.
If Peter or any other person does not confess and forsake their sin there is no mercy, so this applies to Peter too.
That begs the question then, if God keeps people than why did He not keep the ones who went back to living in sin thinking it's OK to do so and claim to still be saved?
You can't have it both ways. Either God keeps people and "makes" them keep walking with Him or He doesn't
Big Boy Johnson
Well-Known Member
They should simply accept what God says in His Word like a little child having child like faith and stop struggling.
The problem is that people are not accepting God's Word for themselves but are instead being indoctrinated by men.
I've said all I need to say, and I stand by it. I can see I'm not getting through to you, and I want to stay on topic, so I won't keep beating a dead horse.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
It's nice to hear you say this. It gets tiresome hearing certain unhinged folks unjustly and unfairly condemn ALL Christians in the OSAS camp and accuse them ALL of promoting a license for immorality. Now just because certain folks on the extreme side of OSAS (who I believe were most likely never truly converted in the first place) may promote a license to sin, that does not mean that ALL Christians in the OSAS camp do. I certainly don't, and I know several Christians in the OSAS camp who do not promote a license to sin either.
It's unfair and slanderous to paint them ALL with a broad brush then judge and condemn them. I actually prefer the terms "eternal security of the believer" and "preservation of the saints" over OSAS. With that being said, I believe you can find saved and unsaved folks in the NOSAS camp as well. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and ONLY God infallibly knows the hearts of ALL men and women, and ONLY God is the rightful judge. Again, thanks for your honesty.
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Yeah, that's my honest assessment.
Yeah, it's not edifying to go on a rampage accusing everyone--it offends others, and it destroys conversations
Sister-n-Christ
Well-Known Member
True. Only God knows.
OSAS cannot be a Gnostic heresy. Though the claim is yet another effort to cast aspersions upon eternal irrevocable security in the salvation of Christ. Which ,if one wants to compress that truth into an acronym , OSAS would fit.
And of course we know because God tells us so, eternal irrevocable security in the Salvation of Christ cannot ever be construed as a license to sin.
Those who think it is and identify as Christians in the process,are not Christian.
The Gnostics did not believe in Salvation as mainstream Christianity teaches it.
That is not off topic in the least. It is the truth.
I know Gnostic Christians.
However,when eternal irrevocable security in the salvation of Christ is being denied,it will be claimed that it is off topic. Because the point is to link Gnosticism and therefore invalidate Eternal Irrevocable Salvation.
The truth is, Salvation,as Christians know it, is off topic in Gnosticism. It is not there.
This forum is a trip.
There are opponents of Jesus here who make a consistent two pronged attack against the faith.
They use two shell topics to do so. OSAS and Calvinism.
And those two shells,the actual foundation upholding them,is entirely Biblical. And Calvin isn't the progenitor of the groundwork of the doctrine.
Salvation,as Jesus said,is by invitation only.Thats why those God leads to understand that are called,His Elect.
This is entirely on topic by the way.
One has to know something about Gnosticism before trying to imply eternal security in Christ's Salvation ,"OSAS", originated there. It didn't.
The issue with saying "OSAS is true" is it will lead to debate about whether it is or isn't when this is about a historical issue of the Church. Please do not defend OSAS here. It's not the discussion.
Big Boy Johnson
Well-Known Member
No thanks! I'll stick with what the Lord teaches in His Word.
Those that know His Word know that OSAS actually is gnostic heresy because it's of private interpretation not being taught in the Bible.
We cannot talk about whether the early church defending this fake gospel or not without getting in to talking about the fact that's it's false and not actually taught in the Bible.
Maybe start a related thread where it can be talked about so this old dead horse can get beat on some more!
The question of whether the early church fought OSAS is a claim about church history, it is not a claim about whether the Church was right or wrong in their fight against OSAS.
You should know I've had many threads on the topic, and how everyone stopped even responding, so I don't think it will get anywhere--though their opposition did help me dig deeper into Scripture. LOLMaybe start a related thread where it can be talked about so this old dead horse can get beat on some more!
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Christian Soldier
Well-Known Member
You took Heb 10:10 way out of context and tried to use (abuse) it, in a vein attempt to support your false, unbiblical free will heresy.WOW…
Heb 10:
[10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
I am not accountable for YOUR lack of due diligence to Search the Scriptures to discover WHAT God OFFERED…TO WHOM…AND HOW MANY TIMES God MADE HIS OFFERING!
YOU are accountable for YOUR OWN (laughable, ridiculous, I have NEVER mentioned) False Accusations.
You Never expressed YOU Searched the Scriptures and YOU FAILED to Find Gods OFFERING.
YOU Never ASK me TO SHOW YOU Gods Offering.
God certainly Does Give and Does TakeAway…
However God is NOT “Limited by YOUR Ignorance.
Your ignorant “comparison” of God. Ewee!
Gaslighter, eat your own words!
Gaslighter, your thoughts, your words, YOU eat them!
Gaslighter. I have never once mentioned such theology.
Even the Devil can Read AND NOT Understand and Make False Accusations!!
Even the Devil chose to Reject Gods Offering and Understanding and Attempts to Blame Others for his OWN Shortcomings.
Waste of Time to “Explain” TO “Gaslighters and False Accusers” NOT equipped with Gods Spiritual Understanding.
Fascinating Claim, Right after you Said…
God Giving His ONLY begotten Son…
Is Gods Works.
God OFFERING Jesus’ Body TO ALL men of the Whole World…
Duh… IS THE OPTION OF ALL men OF the World… TO TAKE or REJECT Gods OFFERING!
YOU reveal YOUR own ignorance to Not KNOW Historically and TO THIS day men Exercise their own Free Will TO Take OR Reject Gods Offering.
Your Preaching man has NO FREEWILL to Choose or Reject God…IS utterly False.
You project a FALSE narrative… That “IF” God “chooses” to save a man…that man, AGAINST his own will, Shall be Forced Into being saved.
The MYSTRY IS…God Already Knows …WHAT each individual man “Will freely Choose”…
Men “know their Own Choice, ON the day THEY decide and MAKE their Choice!”
At what AGE did YOU make “Your” Choice?
Do you Recall?
You're not interested in the truth of the matter, so you would rather use slander to discredit me for exposing your unbiblical doctrine.
The "offering" mentioned in Heb 10:10 was not God offering anything to anyone. The word was used to describe the only sacrifice which was acceptable to God, to purchase atonement for God chosen people. It wasn't like all the previous offerings of animal sacrifice, for the atonement of sin, which were temporal and had to be repeated perpetually.
The Lord Jesus Christ sacrificed His body, as a once and for all "offering", to purchase forgiveness for the sins of Gods Elect. He never offered forgiveness or salvation t anyone, who's names were not written in God book of life, before the world was created.
You can twist Gods word as much as you like, but you're only fooling yourself and deceiving others who don't know the truth, but you will never ever deceive a single elect Saint of God.
You will never find a single verse of scripture, where God offers salvation to anyone. If God purposed to save you and wrote your name in His book, then you will be saved no matter what and nothing in the universe can snatch you out of His hand. But If you weren't chosen, then nothing in the universe can help you or save you.
God is sovereign, He does whatever He does and you and your "free will mb" can never change a singe thing He decreed from the beginning.
Christian Soldier
Well-Known Member
There you go again, you just can't receive Gods Word as it is. You have this uncontrollable urge to superimpose your word over Gods Word and twist it to make it say something other than what He said. Don't you know it's an abomination in Gods sight.
Why can't you just accept Gods Word, as He spoke it? why must you change it. Do you suppose God needs you to correct Him?.
How and where does John 3:16 state that "the cross of Christ is for all sinners". Don't you know that the cross of Christ is rejected and hated by the vast majority of sinners. The word "world" in John 3:16 is used to confirm that Jesus didn't come to save the "Jews" only, but He came to save Gods chosen people from every tribe and tongue throughout the entire world. Why doesn't it just say He came to save every sing person on the face of the whole earth.
I can't understand why you're holding on to this notion that the Lord Jesus Christ died for every single person who ever lived, and then left the choice of salvation or damnation, up to those who are dead in their trespasses and sin (that's everyone).
These would need to make themselves alive, turn from their sin, repent, then die to self, change their sin nature and give themselves the Holy Spirit, before they can start serving God instead of sin and Satan.
Dear friend, salvation is of the Lord. He is the author and finisher of our salvation. Salvation is never described as a joint effort between God and man,, as if Jesus failed to finish the work of salvation on the cross, so He needs us to finish the work He failed to complete.
Jesus said He doesn't even pray for the world, let alone save them. He came to save those the Father gave Him. You know, those the Father chose before He created the world. I'm sorry if you don't like to hear this sobering truth but it must be embraced whether we like it or not.
Christian Soldier
Well-Known Member
Now you have confused me even more. Are you suggesting that John 3:16 is saying that God so loved everyone in the whole world including the Prince of this world "Satan" and traitors like Judas Iscariot and all those reprobates He killed in the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and all those He killed with the world wide flood.
Please clarify why you hold to this untenable, contradictory position. I get the sense it's out of fear of the awful truth.
Yes the Lord Jesus Christ didn't come into the world to judge the world, during His time upon the earth. But He is coming back as a Man of War, with a legion of His Angels to wage war on the rulers of this world and their armies. He promised to kill billions of men, women, children and unborn children in their mothers womb.
So much for your prosperity gospel and the meek and mild long haired hippy Jesus.
You claim that everyone has the opportunity (possibility) to make a decision, but God is against you. He said that none seek after Him and all have gone astray. His Word also confirms that we are all born dead in our trespasses and sin, as such we cannot make a decision to believe in Him. Our sin nature causes us to hate God and only love our sin sin and serve Satan.
If God doesn't quicken us out of that state of death, then we remain dead forever as you rightly pointed out, thank you.
Christian Soldier
Well-Known Member
But you're still using your faith as a work, so according to your private interpretation of the gospel. You were saved when you exercised your faith, so yes you believe you were saved by the faith that you already possessed as a personal attribute of yours.
But the awful truth is, you never had any faith at all. In fact you never had anything that God didn't give you to start with. Please put your pride down and humble yourself, if you confess you sin to the Lord He is faithful to forgive you and receive you as a son.
Pride is the sin, which separates man from God. As long as men rely on their faith to save them, they remain seperated from God. We have nothing to offer God, so we're entirely dependent on Him for salvation. That should humble us to the point where there is no room for any pride in our life.
I've heard many testimonies, where believers described a time when the reached the end of themselves and became entirely dependent upon God in all things.
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