PRETRIB RAPTURE ANCIENT ROOTS

[rebuilder 454]

What?

Exactly


Exactly


Exactly

Exactly

You are cross contaminating the fullness of the Gentiles with the times of the Gentiles. Not the same thing.

The fullness of the Gentiles is complete at the rapture of the Gentile bride.

Yes. Those of the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman, are raptured to heaven and attend the marriage supper.

The woman, Israel, those that have fled to a place of protection remain on the earth during the 7th seal wrath of God. The seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth and the Gentile Church are in heaven at the marriage supper during the wrath of God.


Exactly. I must have said something confusing in my post. I agree with this.


According to the Word of God, the great tribulation, which is the tribulation of those days, begins when the AOD is set up. The great tribulation ends at the 6th seal. Wrath is the 7th seal. That's Biblical fact. Now that's not what you are going hear on TV, but that is Biblical FACT.


I have no idea what I said to make you come to these conclusions

I agree with everything in your post accept ...........the times of the Gentiles being the fullness of the Gentiles. Also, tribulation is when Christians are killed for not taking the mark. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal, according to the Word of God. The 7th seal is the wrath of God, when God takes vengeance on an evil unbelieving world. Tribulation is not wrath.

QUOTE
"""You are cross contaminating the fullness of the Gentiles with the times of the Gentiles. Not the same thing."""

Never said it or went there.
We are in the times of the Gentiles.

Fulness and complete are the same thing.

My post said "times of the Gentiles COMPLETED."

 

[The Light]

Jesus has a sickle in verse 14.

Yes, He does and the righteous are reaped

An angel also has a sickle in verse 17.

Yes, and the unrighteous are reaped.

Both Jesus and the angel reap. But two different locations.

Douggg, I see nothing in scripture that says that there are two different locations. The Bible says the EARTH is reaped by both Jesus and the angel with the sickle. The earth reaped of the righteous and the unrighteous. There are not two locations

Revelation 14
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Revelation 14
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

When the angel reaps, blood flows the length of Israel in verse 20. But does not include the city of Jerusalem (the "without the city" in verse 20). Jesus will destroy those armies surrounding Jerusalem.

20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

the angel - the land of Israel
Jesus - the city of Jerusalem

You have to stop with the Book of Doug. You constantly add to what is written by making false conclusions.
You conclude that the angel reaps the land of Israel. The Word says that the earth is reaped.
You conclude that Jesus reaps the city of Jerusalem. The Word says Jesus reaps the earth.
Common sense should tell you that the armies are gathered outside of Jerusalem (without the city) at Armageddon and Jesus will destroy them.

Look at the following verses.
Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

What is really going on is the unrighteous are cast into the wrath of God. You have to understand what you are reading.

Yes inside the wrath of God there is the winepress that will occur at Armageddon. But that does not occur until Jesus returns with the armies of heaven.

It is shortened version of what is to happen. Instead of saying the earth is reaped and cast into the wrath of God, and the 7th seal is opened and trumpet and vial 1 happen, and trumpet and vial 2 happen, ..............all the way to trumpet and vial 6 happen and the world is set for the coming of Jesus with the armies of heaven for Armageddon...............it just jumps to the final event........the winepress of Armageddon.

It's like if I told you, you are going to feel my wrath. The first thing, I'm going to do is burn your fields, and the second thing I'm going to do is destroy your house and the third thing I'm going to do is cut your head off.

I could also tell you the shortened version. You are going to feel my wrath. I'm going to cut your head off.

I'm still going to burn your fields and destroy your house but I'm giving the conclusion only in the shortened version.

And so, it is in Revelation 14. When the unrighteous are cast into the wrath of God all the trumpet and vials happen, and yet we are given the shortened version of what the final conclusion will be...........the winepress of Armageddon.

 

[The Light]

QUOTE
"""You are cross contaminating the fullness of the Gentiles with the times of the Gentiles. Not the same thing."""

Never said it or went there.
We are in the times of the Gentiles.

Fulness and complete are the same thing.

My post said "times of the Gentiles COMPLETED."

The fullness of the Gentiles and times of the Gentiles are not the same thing.

The fullness of the Gentiles will be complete at the pretribulation rapture. The pretribulation rapture obviously happens before the great tribulation.

The times of Gentiles is another matter. Jerusalem shall be trodden down until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Luke 21
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

In the verses below, the court that is without the Temple will still be in the hands of the Gentiles, which is in Jerusalem, during the wrath of God.

Revelation 11
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

So the fullness of the Gentiles and times of Gentiles are not the same thing. The times of the Gentiles will not be over until Jesus returns and the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The fullness of the Gentiles and times of the Gentiles are not the same thing.

The fullness of the Gentiles will be complete at the pretribulation rapture. The pretribulation rapture obviously happens before the great tribulation.

The times of Gentiles is another matter. Jerusalem shall be trodden down until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Luke 21
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

In the verses below, the court that is without the Temple will still be in the hands of the Gentiles, which is in Jerusalem, during the wrath of God.

Revelation 11
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

So the fullness of the Gentiles and times of Gentiles are not the same thing. The times of the Gentiles will not be over until Jesus returns and the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

We are in "the times of the gentiles"
The fullness is just that. The end of the GATHERING OF THEM as well as their time and opportunity is over, as well as the gentile bride is ready to and gets harvested.

Now God turns to plowing his Covenant people.

Fulness of Gentiles and times of them completed is the same thing.

When you leave out "completed" then yes they are quite different

 

[The Light]

We are in "the times of the gentiles"
The fullness is just that. The end of the GATHERING OF THEM as well as their time and opportunity is over, as well as the gentile bride is ready to and gets harvested.

Now God turns to plowing his Covenant people.

Fulness of Gentiles and times of them completed is the same thing.

When you leave out "completed" then yes they are quite different

I posted the scripture that shows that Jerusalem will be trodden down until the times of the Gentiles is complete.

I posted the scripture that shows that the courtyard of the Temple is given to the Gentiles and will be tread on 42 months.

The fullness of the Gentiles is completed at the pretribulation rapture which occurs before the 42 months.

The times of the Gentiles are completed after the 42 months, as proven by scripture.

The fullness of the Gentiles and the times of the Gentiles are not the same thing.

 

[WPM]

Now God turns to plowing his Covenant people.

Who are God's "Covenant people"?

 

[Douggg]

My focus is vs14.
All that other reaping and destroying is also another time frame. Could be years after the vs 14 gathering of the Jews.

Revelation 14 is a complicated chapter to interpret. I think you will agree with me on that point.

You say you are focusing on verse 14, but that verse does not say anything regarding the 144,000 that John saw in the opening 5 verses. verse 14 only indicates that John saw Jesus with a sharp sickle, and then Jesus was told the time has come to reap in verse 15, and Jesus reaps the earth in verse 16.

If the reaping applies to the 144,000 - are they raptured, are they killed, or what ?


An overview of Revelation 14:

verses 1-5 are about the 144,000

next...

verses 6-13 are three angels delivering proclamations.

first angel - proclaims the preaching of the gospel throughout the earth to every nation, kindred, and tongue, and people.

second angel - proclaims the fall of Babylon.

third angel - proclaims the punishment of them who worship the beast and his image, and take his mark in forehead or hand. And encouragement to the saints, who die in the Lord.

next....

verses 14-16 Jesus having a sharp sickle. Time to reap, the harvest of the earth is ripe. Jesus reaps the earth.

verses 17-20 an angel also having a sharp sickle. Time to reap, the grapes are fully ripe. The angel reaps and the grapes cast into the winepress of God's wrath. The winepress trodden down, not including the city (Jerusalem), and blood comes out of the winepress, the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs (200 miles, the length of Israel).

 

[Douggg]

@The Light
@rebuilder 454

I did a phrase search in the kjv regarding "times of the Gentiles".

This is what I found... It is in one verse, Luke 21:24

TIMES OF THE GENTILES IN THE BIBLE

See 'times of the Gentiles' instances in the King James Version (KJV).

www.kingjamesbibleonline.org

Then I did a phrase search in the kjv regarding "fulness of the Gentiles"

This is what I found... It is in one verse, Romans 11:25

FULNESS OF THE GENTILES IN THE BIBLE

See 'fulness of the Gentiles' instances in the King James Version (KJV).

www.kingjamesbibleonline.org

-----------------------------------------------------------
So let's look at Luke 21:24...

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

So the times of the Gentiles began in 70 ad. When did it end that the Gentiles controlled Jerusalem ? In 1967, the Jews regained control of Jerusalem, making it their capital of Israel.

Thus, the times of the Gentiles ended in 1967.

There is another 42 months period coming that the Gentiles will trodden down Jerusalem in Revelation 11. But we shouldn't categorize that as "the times of the Gentiles".

@The Light, @rebuilder 454, are we all on the same page now ?

 

[Douggg]

The fullness of the Gentiles and the times of the Gentiles are not the same thing.

I agree that they are not the same thing.

"fulness of the Gentiles" is in Romans 11:25.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The fulness of the Gentiles appears to be complete when the resurrection/rapture takes place.

Do you agree ?

 

[The Light]

@The Light
@rebuilder 454

I did a phrase search in the kjv regarding "times of the Gentiles".

This is what I found... It is in one verse, Luke 21:24

TIMES OF THE GENTILES IN THE BIBLE

See 'times of the Gentiles' instances in the King James Version (KJV).

www.kingjamesbibleonline.org

Then I did a phrase search in the kjv regarding "fullness of the Gentiles"

This is what I found... No verses.

FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES IN THE BIBLE

See 'fullness of the Gentiles' instances in the King James Version (KJV).

www.kingjamesbibleonline.org

Do a search on the "fulness of the Gentiles". You should find something.

-----------------------------------------------------------
So let's look at Luke 21:24...

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

So the times of the Gentiles began in 70 ad. When did it end that the Gentiles controlled Jerusalem ? In 1967, the Jews regained control of Jerusalem, making it their capital of Israel.

Thus, the times of the Gentiles ended in 1967.

Negatory. Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. The court of the Temple mount is still under control of the Gentiles.

There is another 42 months period coming that the Gentiles will trodden down Jerusalem in Revelation 11. But we shouldn't categorize that as "the times of the Gentiles".

Sure we should. Until the Dome of the Rock is gone, we will be in the times of the Gentiles.

@The Light, @rebuilder 454, are we all on the same page now ?

I don't think so.

 

[Douggg]

Do a search on the "fulness of the Gentiles". You should find something.

Yes, I re-did it. The first time I typed "fullness". The second time I typed "fulness" and got the Romans 11:25 verse.

 

[Douggg]

Negatory. Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. The court of the Temple mount is still under control of the Gentiles.

But the Gentiles no longer control Jerusalem after 1967. Jerusalem is back in the hands of the Jews.

Luke 21:24 "time of the Gentiles" does not refer to control of the temple mount, but control of Jerusalem.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The Israeli police control Jerusalem, not the Gentiles. The Israeli army controls Israel, not the Gentiles.

The temple mount is a special situation , I agree is under muslim (Gentile) occupation.

The Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa mosque will be removed right after the Gog/Magog event, and a Jewish temple built on the temple mount.

 

[The Light]

I agree that they are not the same thing.

"fulness of the Gentiles" is in Romans 11:25.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The fulness of the Gentiles appears to be complete when the resurrection/rapture takes place.

Do you agree ?

When "A" rapture takes place. The rapture of todays Church.

I agree with that.

 

[Douggg]

@The Light
@rebuilder 454

Do you ever use the online kjv word search feature ? It is very handy.

If you type in more than one word and search a phrase - it gives many partial results. The thing to do is click on the "modify search" button. Then click on "phrase match".

 

[The Light]

But the Gentiles no longer control Jerusalem after 1967. Jerusalem is back in the hands of the Jews.

Luke 21:24 "time of the Gentiles" does not refer to control of the temple mount, but control of Jerusalem.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The Israeli police control Jerusalem, not the Gentiles. The Israeli army controls Israel, not the Gentiles.

The temple mount is a special situation , I agree is under muslim (Gentile) occupation.

The Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa mosque will be removed right after the Gog/Magog event, and a Jewish temple built on the temple mount.

I always thought the Luke 21 in these verses was talking about 70AD. But what was the testimony in 70AD?

Luke 21
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:

15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

And it says that these shall be the days of vengeance. Vengeance happens in the last days.

Luke 21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

The fact that the courtyard is given to the Gentiles makes me think the times of the Gentiles is not complete and will not be complete until after Armageddon.

Revelation 11
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

 

[The Light]

@The Light
@rebuilder 454

Do you ever use the online kjv word search feature ? It is very handy.

If you type in more than one word and search a phrase - it gives many partial results. The thing to do is click on the "modify search" button. Then click on "phrase match".

I use it. Thanks though, it's a good tool.

 

[Douggg]

Luke 21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

I think "the days of vengeance" in verse 22 is referring to the Romans taking vengeance because of Jewish rebellion against Roman rule.

I always thought the Luke 21 in these verses was talking about 70AD. But what was the testimony in 70AD?

Luke 21
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

I don't think verse 12 and 13 is talking about 70 ad, but before then as the apostles went out to spread the gospel and met with opposition by the Jewish religious leaders who probably accused them of rebellion against the Roman government.

As the apostles were brought before the political leaders, they presented their testimony about Jesus and the gospel message of salvation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I think "the days of vengeance" in verse 22 is referring to the Romans taking vengeance because of Jewish rebellion against Roman rule.

God used the Romans to take His vengeance on Jewish unbelievers for rejecting His Son. Do you not think that what happened in 70 AD was God's punishment against unbelieving Jews? You are aware that God can even use evil people to do His will if He wants to, right? In Revelation 17:16-17 we can see a description of God using the ten horns of the beast to destroy the whore. I'm not saying that passage relates to what happened in 70 AD, but I'm just giving an example of what I'm talking about.

 

[Douggg]

God used the Romans to take His vengeance on Jewish unbelievers for rejecting His Son. Do you not think that what happened in 70 AD was God's punishment against unbelieving Jews?

No, not imo.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, not imo.

That's unbelievable to me that you can't discern that what happened in 70 AD was God's wrath against the Jews who rejected His Son.

How do you interpret this passage:

Matthew 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, 2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, 3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. 4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. 5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: 6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. 7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. 9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.