Luke chapter 21 KJV (King James Version)
Luke chapter 21 KJV (King James Version)
www.kingjamesbibleonline.org
It is a great site. You can also do word and phrase searchs there.
The "watch rapture view"
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www.kingjamesbibleonline.org
It is a great site. You can also do word and phrase searchs there.
I have already responded by directing you to the kjv online site and reading Luke 21 and Matthew 24 for what Jesus said, identified by the red text.
The bible gateway site does not have Jesus's words in red text.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
This is hopeless. You can't even answer a simple question. Going to that site does not tell me which verses, if any, you think record things Jesus said after saying what is recorded in Luke 21:24 and before what is recorded in Matthew 24:15. How can you not understand such an incredibly simple question as that?
Tell me this. If we had one account of everything Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse instead of three separate accounts, do you think He said the following in this order without saying anything in between?
Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
1. I agree that I'm one of the many who has become a hypocrite, responding to rudeness and insults in likewise fashion. Maybe that's how you got started. In fact I think it probably is how you got started with that in the first place.
2. I disagree with your assertion that the reason why Luke's gospel has Jesus saying the exact same things while not even in Jerusalem that Matthew's gospel has Him saying in the temple and on the Mount of Olives, is because Jesus said the same things more than once.
IMO your assertion implies that Jesus repeated His castigation of the Pharisees and pronouncing woe upon them etc, in the temple after having already said it to them elsewhere when He wasn't even in Jerusalem.
I don't agree with that.
Your assertion also implies that Jesus spoke about the signs of, and things surrounding His return, (that He spoke about in the Olivet Discourse), long before He even came to Jerusalem, and then repeated those very same things on the Mount of Olives.
I don't agree with that either.
IMO the fact that Luke has Jesus in towns and villages outside of Jerusalem saying almost word-for-word what Matthew records Him saying in the temple and on the Mount of Olives, is evidence of the fact that Luke was not an eyewitness, and had collected the sayings of Jesus from the records of various eyewitnesses.
3. I do not believe that your arguments in support of equating an abomination of desolation in the holy place (which refers to a specific thing inside the sanctuary of God) with armies gathering around Jerusalem, are valid.
I believe that on the Mount of Olives that day, Jesus spoke both about armies gathering around Jerusalem (being the sign to His disciples that its destruction was near), AND about an abomination of desolation in the sanctuary of God (being the sign to His disciples that the end of the age had come, and the time of His return was near).
4. I do not accept your and a billion other Christians' re-invention of the rules of English grammar in order to have Matthew 24:15-22 speaking about the temple in Jerusalem. Here's why:
IMO Jesus' last words about that temple in Jerusalem were what He said about it being left unto them desolate and not one stone being left upon another, and declaring His own body to be the temple of God.
IMO Jesus was not going to, and was not prepared to talk about that temple again after that.
2. I disagree with your assertion that the reason why Luke's gospel has Jesus saying the exact same things while not even in Jerusalem that Matthew's gospel has Him saying in the temple and on the Mount of Olives, is because Jesus said the same things more than once.
IMO your assertion implies that Jesus repeated His castigation of the Pharisees and pronouncing woe upon them etc, in the temple after having already said it to them elsewhere when He wasn't even in Jerusalem.
I don't agree with that.
Your assertion also implies that Jesus spoke about the signs of, and things surrounding His return, (that He spoke about in the Olivet Discourse), long before He even came to Jerusalem, and then repeated those very same things on the Mount of Olives.
I don't agree with that either.
IMO the fact that Luke has Jesus in towns and villages outside of Jerusalem saying almost word-for-word what Matthew records Him saying in the temple and on the Mount of Olives, is evidence of the fact that Luke was not an eyewitness, and had collected the sayings of Jesus from the records of various eyewitnesses.
3. I do not believe that your arguments in support of equating an abomination of desolation in the holy place (which refers to a specific thing inside the sanctuary of God) with armies gathering around Jerusalem, are valid.
I believe that on the Mount of Olives that day, Jesus spoke both about armies gathering around Jerusalem (being the sign to His disciples that its destruction was near), AND about an abomination of desolation in the sanctuary of God (being the sign to His disciples that the end of the age had come, and the time of His return was near).
4. I do not accept your and a billion other Christians' re-invention of the rules of English grammar in order to have Matthew 24:15-22 speaking about the temple in Jerusalem. Here's why:
IMO Jesus' last words about that temple in Jerusalem were what He said about it being left unto them desolate and not one stone being left upon another, and declaring His own body to be the temple of God.
IMO Jesus was not going to, and was not prepared to talk about that temple again after that.
-------------------------------------------------------------
The disciples had later asked (on the Mount of Olives) when it would be destroyed, and IMO He did not tell them. Instead He began to speak to them about TWO THINGS:
One of the two things Jesus told them about was recorded by Luke:
He told them that His disciples would see armies gathering around Jerusalem - and the way Luke 21:12-19 is worded ("But BEFORE all these") it implies that Jesus was also telling His disciples about the persecution they would endure BEFORE those armies gathered around Jerusalem (unlike Matthew's gospel).
The other thing was recorded by Matthew:
Jesus told them about:
(a) the living stones of the New Testament Temple and the persecution and tribulation they would experience; and
(b) the end of the age and the time of His return.
In this context He said:
"This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Therefore when ye SHALL see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes." (Matthew 24:14-18).
The last two sentences in the above verses imply Jesus coming suddenly, as a thief, and the context of the whole passage from Matthew 24:9-31 implies the end of the age.
The first (Luke 21:12-24) was the sign that Jerusalem was about to be destroyed. The second is the sign of the defilement of the church by the son of perdition mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and the end of the age at the time of Jesus' return.
IMO.
One of the two things Jesus told them about was recorded by Luke:
He told them that His disciples would see armies gathering around Jerusalem - and the way Luke 21:12-19 is worded ("But BEFORE all these") it implies that Jesus was also telling His disciples about the persecution they would endure BEFORE those armies gathered around Jerusalem (unlike Matthew's gospel).
The other thing was recorded by Matthew:
Jesus told them about:
(a) the living stones of the New Testament Temple and the persecution and tribulation they would experience; and
(b) the end of the age and the time of His return.
In this context He said:
"This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Therefore when ye SHALL see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes." (Matthew 24:14-18).
The last two sentences in the above verses imply Jesus coming suddenly, as a thief, and the context of the whole passage from Matthew 24:9-31 implies the end of the age.
The first (Luke 21:12-24) was the sign that Jerusalem was about to be destroyed. The second is the sign of the defilement of the church by the son of perdition mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and the end of the age at the time of Jesus' return.
IMO.
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You asked me what Jesus said between Luke 21:24 and Matthew 24:15.
Everything that Jesus said is in the text itself in red in the remainder of Luke 21 and in Matthew 24 to verse 15.
Go to the kjv online site and read all that text. I hope you start using that site because the text of what Jesus said being in red will save you some time.
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Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Here is the grand sweep of things, and I'll explain to you how I see it.
Matt 24.1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
Jesus has just said the Temple will be obliterated. We know that happened in 70 AD. And Jesus was asked for more information. And so, we must begin here, with the upcoming destruction of the Temple, which will take place in 70 AD.
Mat 24.4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.
9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
Jesus was asked to compare the events to imminently come to pass, namely the destruction of the Temple, with his Coming Kingdom. So here we have a grand sweep from the 70 AD event of the destruction of the Temple to the end of the age, which will follow the message of the Gospel calling the world to repent and prepare for judgment.
1st Jesus gives some initial signs that are to lead to the 70 AD event. He called them "birth pains." It will be a still born child that is born, and these signs evidence that. If there is any real birth at all, it will be the birth of the Jewish Church. But these initial signs portend the fall of the Temple, the fall of the city of Jerusalem, and the exile of the Jewish People, ending their covenant of protection from God.
With the 1st Coming of Messiah it should've been the birth of God's Kingdom on earth among Israel. But instead, the signs indicated Israel was in rebellion, and the world will continue in rebellion, until Christ Returns to judge the world.
These "birth pain" signs include the signs of approaching armies, and signs of God's displeasure, such as earthquakes and famines. And the bad character of the people above all portended the fall of those same people under the judging hand of God.
But this would be but the beginning of a long age in which the Gospel is preached to save some and judge the rest. So we are here not just dealing with the 70 AD judgment of Israel, but more, with the judgment of the whole world at the coming of Christ to judge the world. The preaching of the Gospel to all the world would adequately warn the world that this judgment is coming.
Mat 24.15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
Here we have the 70 AD event, in which the Abomination of Desolation, the Roman Army, comes to destroy the city of Jerusalem and the Temple, along with many Jews. It was predicted as such in Dan 9.26-27--the "people" of the ruler to come, indicating an army, would destroy the city and the sanctuary. And this army would be called the AoD.
But this event in 70 AD would only lead to a long period of distress or tribulation--we call it the "Great Tribulation." It is not the Reign of Antichrist, which some people associate the term with. Rather, it is a period of Jewish Punishment, as Luke calls it, which consists of a long period of exile, which we now call the "Jewish Diaspora." It is Israel's worst punishment, and one that threatens Israel's very existence as a people.
Mat 24.22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
The entire NT era would be characterized by false instances of the Kingdom in which false prophets declare their kingdom the true one. In the meantime, the Jews would remain under deception themselves and nearly experience genocide.
Matt 24.26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
The NT era of false Kingdoms would see a continuing destruction, like the one Israel would see in 70 AD. The vultures would gather to the carcass, which is the victim of judgment. As Israel suffered judgment form the Roman army so other nations would come under judgment, while false Kingdoms of God were being proclaimed.
But the true Kingdom comes from heaven, and is not an earthly cult or religion. It will fall as judgment as opposed to a Kingdom set up permanently on earth by men. The world will be characterized as fallen until it comes time for Christ to come.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Yea, I know this is hard to decipher. I personally go by J. Barton Payne's "Encyclopedia of Prophecy," which had been recommended by Walter Martin. Payne details how the 1290 days and 1335 days fit into the reign of Antiochus 4 and the news of his demise getting back to Israel. He also explains how in Dan 8 there is an even longer period of time encompassing both the initial corruption of the Jewish Priesthood and the reign of terror unleashed by Antiochus 4.
But yes, we agree on Dan 12.7 involving the end of the age, which includes the 3.5 years of Antichrist's reign.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You know that I was making a genuine effort to get along with you not long ago and we did get along for some time there. But, then you started being rude again and didn't seem interested in talking to me any other way, so I just figured you got bored with being nice and you prefer being rude. No? I would prefer leaving the insults out, but if no one else is interested in that, then I figure there's no reason to be offended by them if that's how you talk as well.
He never said all of the exact same things that He is recorded to have said in the Olivet Discourse on any other occasion, so I'm not seeing your point here. And I'm not saying He had previously said literally everything He said in the Olivet Discourse at some point previously at one time or another, either. So, I think we're having a big misunderstanding here.
Not everything, but some things. Why not? I thought some time back when we discussed before whether or not Luke 17 was part of the Olivet Discourse that you agreed that it was not? Are you now trying to say that it is along with other parts of Luke? If not, then I'm not really sure what you're trying to say.
I don't know what your point is here. If you look at Luke 21:7, he starts out by recording the disciples questions after Jesus told them the temple buildings would be destroyed in verses 5 and 6. Just like we see in Matthew 24:1-3 and Mark 13:1-4. Then what follows in each case are very similar. But, not all the same just as you would expect from three different people who didn't just copy what the others were writing. Would you agree that what is recorded in Luke 21:7-19 is parallel to what is recorded in Matthew 24:4-14 and Mark 13:1-13? If so, why would you think that Luke 21:20-24 is not something Jesus said right after what is recorded in Luke 21:7-19 while on the Mount of Olives? Or do you believe that is the case? I can't quite tell what you believe at this point other than it seems that you don't think everything that Jesus is recorded as saying in Luke 21 was all in the same day on the Mount of Olives. Which I completely disagree with and see no basis for that. It seems that you have changed your mind again and have decided that Luke recorded parts of the Olivet Discourse in other places in his gospel account besides Luke 21, such as Luke 17?
It's clear to me that everything recorded in Luke 21:7-36 are things Jesus said on the Mount of Olives, so if you disagree with that, as it seems you do, then it's pointless to even continue this discussion since my point is based on the assumption that everything written there is part of the same Olivet Discourse that is recorded in Matthew 24 and Mark 13.
I'll read the rest of what you said later since it's pretty late here now.
Randy, you made references to Matthew 24, the Olivet Discourse chapter.
Here is my chart of the Olivet Discourse.
So, what I would like for you to do, Randy, is place the verses as you view them that are near term, long term, and end times. Down below with the question marks.
near term - while Israel was under occupancy, leading up to the 70ad destruction of the temple.
long term - Israel into exile into the nations as the gospel was being spread to the nations, over the course of 2000 years.
end times - Israel back as a sovereign nation again, events of the latter days, latter years, when Jesus will return
What verses would you place...
under near term
Matthew 24: ?????
Mark 13: ?????
Luke 21: ?????
under long term
Matthew 24: ?????
Mark 13: ?????
Luke 21: ?????
under end times
Matthew 24: ?????
Mark 13: ?????
Luke 21: ?????
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
And what is your answer to that question? Just tell me which verses you think record what He said between those 2 verses, if any. If you actually do that, then I will answer your questions. This is a very simple request I'm making here. Otherwise, if you continue to not do that, then forget it and I'm moving on.
How does seeing which verses record things that Jesus said tell me which verses that YOU think record things that He said between what is recorded in Luke 21:24 and Matthew 24:15? Why can't you just tell me which verses those are, if any? Telling me to look at the red text that shows what Jesus said does not answer that question.
Why would I do that when biblegateway.com works just fine for me? I know which verses are what Jesus said and which are not without needing the verses to be highlighted.
Jesus's word in red.
Luke 21:
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Matthew 24:
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
@Spiritual Israelite
reminder. I gave my position in my chart of the Olivet Discourse. I am waiting for you to respond with what verses you think should go under these three categories.
near term - while Israel was under occupancy, leading up to the 70ad destruction of the temple.
long term - Israel into exile into the nations as the gospel was being spread to the nations, over the course of 2000 years.
end times - Israel back as a sovereign nation again, events of the latter days, latter years, when Jesus will return
What verses would you place...
under near term
Matthew 24: ?????
Mark 13: ?????
Luke 21: ?????
under long term
Matthew 24: ?????
Mark 13: ?????
Luke 21: ?????
under end times
Matthew 24: ?????
Mark 13: ?????
Luke 21: ?????
reminder. I gave my position in my chart of the Olivet Discourse. I am waiting for you to respond with what verses you think should go under these three categories.
near term - while Israel was under occupancy, leading up to the 70ad destruction of the temple.
long term - Israel into exile into the nations as the gospel was being spread to the nations, over the course of 2000 years.
end times - Israel back as a sovereign nation again, events of the latter days, latter years, when Jesus will return
What verses would you place...
under near term
Matthew 24: ?????
Mark 13: ?????
Luke 21: ?????
under long term
Matthew 24: ?????
Mark 13: ?????
Luke 21: ?????
under end times
Matthew 24: ?????
Mark 13: ?????
Luke 21: ?????
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
I explain that in post #186. The whole prophecy is not neatly divided up into sections determining what is near term, what is long term, and what are end times. Rather, what Jesus is giving is as his role as a Prophet to Israel, indicating that God's judgment is coming because of the gross sins of Israel. All of the prophecies of the OT came in this way, and Jesus is acting in the same way. He is reading Israel their sins, and is determined that they experience judgment from God as a result.
This judgent of course would begin in the generation of Jesus. But Israel would remain in their sin as a people, with only a small remnant converting to Jesus. And so, after 70 AD Israel would continue in Diaspora until the end.
But as we can see Israel has already returned to their land, though not yet out of judgment from God. They are still in rebellion, though a remnant of Christians among them remains.
There is not much detail on the generations of exile Jesus expected. He just called it a time of great distress. People would be declaring movements on earth as being the Kingdom of God. Nations would continue to be at war and under divine judgment.
But not much is said about future generations because Jesus is addressing his own generation and their own sins. The world, and Israel, would continue in sin until the end, even as many nations initially become Christian and ultimately fall away.
See post #194.
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Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Matt 24.1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
The main focus was on the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. Near-Term.
A secondary focus was on the 2nd Coming of Christ at the end of the age. This is because Jesus' Disciples responded to Jesus' claim that the Temple would be destroyed by asking him to compare that event with his coming Kingdom. End-Time.
Mat 24.4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.
9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
The sins of Israel, and the Birth-Pain signs are indicative of the coming judgment in 70 AD. Near-Term.
But the sins of Israel would continue until the end of the age, even as the Gospel of the coming Kingdom is being preached. Long-Term.
The end of the age will come. End-Time.
Mat 24.15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
This AoD judgment is the Roman Judgment in 70 AD. Near-Term.
The 70 AD event would lead to an age-long period of "great tribulation." Long-Term.
Mat 24.22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
This represents the Great Distress, or Jewish Diaspora. It would be a long period of Jewish exile, threatening the very existence of the Jews. But it began with Jesus' own generation. Short-Term and Long-Term.
Matt 24.26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
This is the period of "Great Tribulation" or Jewish Diaspora, which began with the 70 AD event. Both Short-Term and Long-Term.
The appearance of the Son of Man is End-Time, terminating the long age of Jewish Tribulation. End-Time.
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
The main focus was on the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. Near-Term.
A secondary focus was on the 2nd Coming of Christ at the end of the age. This is because Jesus' Disciples responded to Jesus' claim that the Temple would be destroyed by asking him to compare that event with his coming Kingdom. End-Time.
Mat 24.4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.
9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
The sins of Israel, and the Birth-Pain signs are indicative of the coming judgment in 70 AD. Near-Term.
But the sins of Israel would continue until the end of the age, even as the Gospel of the coming Kingdom is being preached. Long-Term.
The end of the age will come. End-Time.
Mat 24.15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
This AoD judgment is the Roman Judgment in 70 AD. Near-Term.
The 70 AD event would lead to an age-long period of "great tribulation." Long-Term.
Mat 24.22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
This represents the Great Distress, or Jewish Diaspora. It would be a long period of Jewish exile, threatening the very existence of the Jews. But it began with Jesus' own generation. Short-Term and Long-Term.
Matt 24.26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
This is the period of "Great Tribulation" or Jewish Diaspora, which began with the 70 AD event. Both Short-Term and Long-Term.
The appearance of the Son of Man is End-Time, terminating the long age of Jewish Tribulation. End-Time.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
Yes, Luke 11 & 13 has Jesus saying some of the things to the scribes and Pharisees while not even in Jerusalem that Matthew 23 has Him saying to them in the temple (on the same day as, and not long before, the Mount of Olives sermon).
Yes, Luke 17 has Jesus saying some of the exact same things when not even in Jerusalem that Matthew 24 has Him saying on the Mount of Olives about the end of the age and time of His return.
My point was that it proves that Luke was not an eyewitness but collected everything he wrote in every chapter of his gospel from the records of eyewitnesses.
My point was that It does not prove YOUR assertion that Jesus repeated some of the things in the temple and on the Mount of Olives that He had already said earlier.
I made it clear that's what I'm saying. So I'm not seeing your point.
No I understand what you are saying, but I disagree and believe that the reason why your reasoning is flawed, is because you insist that whatever Luke wrote about what Jesus said on the Mount of Olives was in answer to the disciples' question regarding when the temple would be destroyed.
But Jesus' final words about that temple in Jerusalem were what He said about it being left unto them desolate and not one stone being left upon another, and declaring His own body to be the temple of God. He was not going to, was not prepared to, and did not talk about that temple again after that - but you guys who keep mentioning what the disciples asked, all speak as though the fact that Matthew, Mark and Luke recorded that the disciples asked Jesus when the Jerusalem temple was going to be destroyed, means that He answered their question:
But Jesus' final words about that temple in Jerusalem were what He said about it being left unto them desolate and not one stone being left upon another, and declaring His own body to be the temple of God. He was not going to, was not prepared to, and did not talk about that temple again after that - but you guys who keep mentioning what the disciples asked, all speak as though the fact that Matthew, Mark and Luke recorded that the disciples asked Jesus when the Jerusalem temple was going to be destroyed, means that He answered their question:
I don't know what your point is here, either. I did tell you why I believe Jesus was not answering their question about the Jerusalem temple in any part of His Olivet Discourse, so I won't repeat myself about that.
But I will add once again what I have said before: The fact that Daniel 9:26-27 is about:
1. The Messiah strengthening a covenant with many during the 70th week.
2. The Messiah being cut off in the middle of the 70th week.
3. Sacrifice and offering for sin being caused to cease.
4. The destruction of both the city and its temple.
5. Abominations (plural) being associated with the destruction of both the city and its temple.
Matthew 24:15 is talking about an abomination (singular) of desolation in the holy place; and an abomination (singular) of desolation is linked by history to Daniel 8:11 and Daniel 11:31; and Daniel 12:11-12, - and it did not result in the desolation or destruction of the temple or of the city.
History also links Daniel's abomination of desolation in the holy place to Antiochus IV, "Epiphanes" and to the second century, BC, and that king is the biblical type of the son of perdition seating himself up in the holy tabernacle of God, which Paul speaks about in 2 Thessalonians 2:4.
IMO as long as you have Matthew 24:15 linked to Jerusalem, then you must also have Luke 21:20 be referring to the holy city - because it's the holy place in the city that makes the city holy.
But if you do not have Matthew 24:15 linked to Jerusalem, then you do not also need to have Luke 21:20 referring to a "holy city".
The abomination of desolation in the holy place is an abomination that will defile the holy place, but not result in its destruction, nor in the destruction of the city which is made holy by it - and that holy place is the holy sanctuary of God, the New Testament Tabernacle of God, which is the holy city, the Jerusalem which is from above.
I did make it clear enough in my post that I do believe that even though Luke has Jesus saying things about the end of the age and time of His return when not even in Jerusalem (that Matthew Has Him saying on the Mount of Olives),
and though Luke has Jesus castigating the scribes and Pharisees and pronouncing woe upon them, and weeping over Jerusalem when not even in Jerusalem, while Matthew has Him saying and doing all this in the temple in Jerusalem,
nevertheless what Luke recorded in Luke 21 is what Jesus said on the Mount of olives.
The point is that Luke was not an eyewitness, hence the discrepancies regarding what, where and when Jesus said certain things:
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 are parallel passages that don't give the exact same details.
For example, Luke did not say in Luke 21:20-24 what Matthew said about the one on the housetop not going down for what's in his house, and about the one in the fields not returning to fetch his clothes. Luke's record in Luke 21:20-24 about armies gathering around Jerusalem does not imply suddenness the way Matthew's does.
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 are parallel passages that don't give the exact same details.
For example, Luke did not say in Luke 21:20-24 what Matthew said about the one on the housetop not going down for what's in his house, and about the one in the fields not returning to fetch his clothes. Luke's record in Luke 21:20-24 about armies gathering around Jerusalem does not imply suddenness the way Matthew's does.
Luke connects armies gathering around Jerusalem to the wrath of God coming upon the inhabitants of the city and the great distress that will cause them.
Matthew's gospel links the abomination of desolation in the holy place to the tribulation of the disciples mentioned in Matthew 24:9, 21-22 & 29 by use of the words "therefore", "and", "for" (because), "but" etc etc - and yourself and billions of other theological geniuses past, present and future cannot get away from that grammatical fact. At best you can all ignore it and explain it away using your arguments about Jesus' statement regarding the Jerusalem temple and the disciples' question about it (which is what you guys all do).
But Jesus' final words about that temple in Jerusalem were what He said about it being left unto them desolate and not one stone being left upon another, and declaring His own body to be the temple of God. He was not going to, was not prepared to, and did not talk about that temple again after that
But Jesus' final words about that temple in Jerusalem were what He said about it being left unto them desolate and not one stone being left upon another, and declaring His own body to be the temple of God. He was not going to, was not prepared to, and did not talk about that temple again after that
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Randy, you are saying that Matthew 24:15-21 is the 70ad event. And that the Roman Army is the Abomination of Desolation that Daniel spoke about.
Daniel spoke about the abomination of desolation in Daniel 12:11-12 to take place at the time of the end. Daniel 12:4, Daniel 12:9. Daniel said in Daniel 12:11 that the abomination of desolation will be set up.
So, Matthew 24:15-21 was not back in 70ad, but is time of the end.
Jesus in the Olivet Discourse of Matthew 24 spoke about things that would take place in chronological order.
Matthew 24:4-13 Jesus spoke about near term events
Matthew 24:14 Jesus spoke about long term events
Matthew 24:15-51 Jesus spoke about end times events
Yes, it was the end of their age. End of the world (not cosmos.) Their whole lively-hood was going to be extinguished and it was. They lost all the genealogy, the temple everything.
Some suppose a third temple is gonna be the event of the end today, but they probably aren't even able to build that correctly anyway.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Exactly! Preterists have been saying this a long time, and they are right. But I'm not a Preterist. I simply agree with them and with the early Church Fathers who believed the same thing without being called "Preterists."
This is simply a "fulfilled prophecy." But it was designed not to complete the total prophecy but only to begin the long age of Jewish Punishment we call the "Jewish Diaspora."
This was a specifically Jewish Prophecy. The Church Age had not yet begun when Jesus prophesied this. Jesus said this while the Law was still in effect and Israel was God's only "chosen nation" on earth.
Daniel 12.4 is connected to Dan 12.7 and deals with the endtime, which is beyond Daniel's grasp. But Dan 12.11 is also future and beyond Daniel's grasp, but does not have to do with the endtime. Rather, it is connected to earlier prophecies in Dan 8 and Dan 11 having to do with Antiochus 4.
Both of the prophecies, of the endtime and of the reign of Antiochus 4, were important future prophecies in Daniel's time, and were beyond his understanding or concern. But they indicated that Israel would not achieve her final fulfillment until such things took place 1st.
So, when these two prophecies are not properly segregated and understood separately confusion results. The "Abomination of Desolation" is applied in two different contexts in the book of Daniel. Here in Dan 12.11, and also in Dan 11.31 and in Dan 8.13, we have Antiochus 4, who doesn't destroy the Temple but desolates the Jewish People and commits sacrilege in the Temple.
But in Dan 9.27 there is a different Abomination of Desolation associated with the "people of the ruler" who would "destroy the city and the sanctuary." This is, I believe, the Roman Army. And it is this particular AoD that Jesus refers to in his Olivet Discourse.
Can't agree with you for the reasons I've given you. I hope you consider what I've said because I've been studying these things for a very long time, have held several opinions, but have had to address matters that I was confronted with.
The only way I found harmony among all these things is the way I've presented it to you. And I did not come up with it myself, but only by humbly accepted views presented from several different schools of thought. It may be that they cannot find harmony due to sectarian differences?
Daniel 8:13 is the transgression of desolation, not abomination of desolation. And it is time of the end. Daniel 8:17. So the verse is not referring to Antiochus 4.
Matthew 24:14 precedes Matthew 24:15-21.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
The gospel of the kingdom preached to all nations has been long a 2000 year endeavor. To all nations, including the newer nations of the western hemisphere.
Matthew 24:15-21 therefore is end times. And the abomination of desolation will trigger the great tribulation that will end with Jesus's return in Matthew 24:30.
So there is no way that Matthew 24:15-21 is historic, back in 70ad.
Daniel 9:27, the 7 year 70th week is yet to be fulfilled also. Those 7 years are the same 7 years of Ezekiel 39:9 that follow the Gog/Magog attack that will take place against modern day Israel.
We are living in the parable of the fig tree generation that will not pass away before Jesus returns.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
"Transgression of Desolation" and "Abomination of Desolation" are virtually synonymous. "Transgression" adds the fact Antiochus didn't destroy the Temple but committed sacrilege against it.
The AoD of Dan 9 is different in that the "Abomination" is said to be a pagan army, ie "People of the ruler to come who will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The Desolation is therefore different--not just a sacrilege committed, and not just killing thousands of Jews. But more, it is a complete obliteration of the Temple, as well as the murder of thousands of Jews, exiling the rest for a long age of wandering.
Verses of a Discourse are not set up geometrically, whether thematic or chronological. A discourse is flexible, replete with pauses for explanation, jumping ahead, reflecting back, etc. Imposing a chronological order from verse to verse is unnatural. For example, in the Revelation we have flashbacks and polepses--hardly indicative of a necessary chronoloigical order from one vision to another or even within a single vision!
That is the *only* way to see it, in my view. The Church Fathers believed the same, and obviously did not see the supposed "logic" that you say prevents you from seeing it otherwise!
To be consistent, the 70th Week of Dan 9 was fulfilled immediately after the 69th Week, which took place in roughly the time of Jesus' earthly minitry. The 70th Week was the last of 70 7 year periods. But the last "Week" may have been cut off in the middle of the 7 year period, ending the 70 Week Prophecy in just 69.5 Weeks. That is, the 70th Week ended up being only half a Week.
The Fig Tree Prophecy consisted of indications the Kingdom was coming with Messiah being present. But the signs, instead of showing promise, showed failure. The "Birth Pain" signs indicated that judgment was coming in Messiah's generation, due to the sins of Israel.
We are brothers, but we disagree on this interpretation. I wish you well...
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