Unlocking Isaiah 14

[Hiddenthings]

This is, of course, symbolic. Tell me, do you believe Jesus will return blowing a trumpet (1 Thess 4:16), or that the seven trumpet blast of Revelation 8 are literal? Satan's pride, power, and enjoyment will follow him into Sheol. Just like how worms and maggots break down a dead animal or person, they will also figuratively eat away at Satan. This means that the arrogant one will not only be buried alongside the powerful people of the world but will also meet his end just like an ordinary person.

Symbolic as it relates to the King of Babylon, yes! - satan is not mentioned at all in the chapter. If you are trying to force this into the chapter you need to provide context. You need to explain why Isaiah 14?

• Is Satan really accompanied by the sound of viols (or harps, as the RSV translates it) as mentioned in verse 11?

The answer, of course, is no—and it clearly refers to the funeral procession of a king and not some fallen angel.

• Is Satan to be covered with worms in the grave (verse 11), or isn’t he rather destined to be cast into the lake of fire, as stated in Revelation 20:10?

Eternal beings cannot die, angels, who possess the Divine nature, are not subject to death or decay as human bodies are. Only mortal flesh breaks down and becomes corruptible.

As Jesus said in Luke 20:36, speaking of that worthy of the resurrection: “...neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”

What this means is that even your symbolic interpretations fail to support the idea of the destruction of an eternal being. There is no biblical text that teaches angels can die, let alone be put to death because such a concept is impossible.

Angels are holy beings who behold the face of God (Matthew 18:10), always obey His commands (Psalm 103:20), and serve as ministering spirits sent to assist those who will inherit salvation (Hebrews 1:14).

I'll let the rest of reply go as your first paragraph failed to provide evidence.

 

[Hiddenthings]

There is a spiritual “blindness” that the devil creates in people....(2 Cor 4:3-4) This is a blindness of the mind...the centre that processes all information....so if the mind is blinded, they can’t see or discern anything other than what they want to believe. Yet Paul says it can only happen to “unbelievers”...so it makes you wonder how many “unbelievers” there are who think that they are actually “believers”...
so what is a “believer”as opposed to an “unbeliever” from God’s perspective? Do you ever wonder about that?

Sadly, to swallow that rhetoric is to be taken captive by the very one whose existence they deny. How can the “God of love” create humans to suffer by planting satanic thinking in them from their creation? It doesn’t make sense! How is that making them in his image? Does the Creator have these character flaws himself?

Everyone is permitted by God to hold whatever beliefs appeal to their hearts. We, by our own choices show God who we really are at heart....and it is the leanings of the heart that are most important.

Satan has created a counterfeit ‘Christianity’ as Jesus said he would, (Matt 13: 24-30; 36-42) so as to mislead even the chosen ones if he could (Matt 24:24)....confusion has taken over the Christian world and created so many ‘brands’ of one product that very few seem to be able to find the genuine article......like trying to find a diamond in a large pile of broken glass. You have to know what you are looking for. Like counterfeit currency you just have to know what the real one looks like, before you can spot the fakes.
In a world ruled by the devil, nothing is as it appears. (1 John 5:19)

So where does this leave the genuine truth seekers? God, as the reader of hearts, knows those whom he wants as citizens in his coming Kingdom. And he gives us the confidence to know the truth when we hear it. It will strike a chord, resonating with us, like finding that diamond!

The scriptures tell us that no one can come to the Father except through the son....but no one can come to the son, without an invitation from his Father. (John 6:44; 65) So in all that muddle, there is one truth that shines like beacon to those who have been invited by the Father to be disciples of his son. They will be “few” compared with the majority, and will not be believed by the hoodwinked majority... (Matt 7:13-14;21-23)

This will show in the “fruitage” they reveal in their daily lives......and by the amount of opposition they receive for not believing what mainstream “Christianity” teaches. (John 15:18-21) Remember how it was with Jesus and his disciples in the first century? The opposition they received was primarily from those who purported to worship the same God. But by then the Jews had sunk into deep spiritual ruin. It had been hundreds of years since God had sent a prophet to Israel, because he knew that their words would fall on deaf ears. He would fulfill his prophesy and promise to Abraham that a savior would come from Israel, but that he would not be well received, and as Isaiah prophesied, he would suffer and die.

If Satan is the “sower” of what Christendom believes, then we had better know what the Bible teaches, as opposed to what Church theology presents as truth. We have to study carefully to ascertain how much of what is presented as Christian teaching, actually is....no one really knows how far they have strayed until all the evidence is examined and the false teachings are exposed. Just like the Jews who followed the lead of the false shepherds in Israel, and missed out on salvation because of rejecting their Messiah, so too those misled by the teachings of the divided churches of Christendom, will miss out on salvation because they believed the wrong people.

We can only find the truth by sincere prayer, careful study, and a desire to know what the Bible teaches as opposed to what Christendom says that it teaches. Only honest truth seekers will find the diamond, and like the first Christians, will separate themselves from spiritually unclean beliefs and practices.....and the often hypocritical teachings of men. Sometimes it isn’t noticeable until it’s brought to your attention.....

Sites like this facilitate a wide range of views and people can compare what the Bible says to what others believe....it will either attract them or repel them. At least it gives people exposure to other views....leading to a more informed choice.

@pandaflower, perhaps ask Jane why she seems so hesitant to directly address the questions surrounding Genesis 3:1.

To invent a backstory and suggest a ventriloquist-like deception for a creature that was created with a specific purpose is unwarranted and unsupported, it’s simply not in the text.

Here’s the core issue: if the doctrine begins with a distortion or misrepresentation of the text in Genesis 3, what confidence can we have that the rest of Scripture will be handled any differently?

I’ve come across only one honest Christian in this forum who openly acknowledged the issue, while everyone else has avoided facing it.

 

[Hiddenthings]

The phrase "mount of the congregation" shows that Satan wanted to be like Jesus, who is the head of the congregation (Church) in every way (he is above both angels and humans), even though he hasn't used this power and control yet. Eph 5:23, Col 1:18

Just so we're clear on this, not only is Satan not mentioned in Isaiah 14, but you also have no direct support for your theory from the New Testament. Can you point to a single verse where any NT writer quotes Isaiah 14 and applies it to your interpretation?

 

[Hiddenthings]

Let's look at verse 16. "They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee," can mean two things. (1) If Satan shows up, people will witness his shame and downfall. (2) If he doesn’t show up, those in the spiritual world will see him being brought low. The Revised Standard version is interesting: "Those who see you will stare at you and think about you." This suggests that he will appear in some way.

Satan's appearance is a tricky topic. Right before Babylon falls, there will be amazing signs and wonders linked to the Papacy gaining power for a short time. (You may not agree with this interpretation) It’s possible that the Adversary will show up during that brief moment of power. But the Church needs to be gone before Babylon falls, and Babylon will fall before Satan is cast into the abyss. The sequence will be (1) the Church is complete, (2) Babylon falls, and (3) Satan is abyssed.

How tricky?

For the past six weeks, forum members have been trying to produce a single verse that clearly identifies this figure, and not one has been found.

Not tricky but impossible.

It's clear in your exegesis you don't have the context to build a coherent interpretation. Things like "its tricky" and "can mean" are substitutes this is what it means.

You need to first understand the chapter as it relates to the King of Babylon...if you can't do that then you a long way from understanding the chapter.

 

[Hiddenthings]

People who work with Satan are compared to his kids, and he is their father: "You [children of disobedience] are of your father the devil" (John 8:44). When the Millennium ends, the "children" of Satan will be those who cannot change. The land will be purified when they enter the Second Death.

Who was their father? This is not difficult if you read and study the Bible and leave fanciful notions out of it.

 

[Berean]

Who was their father? This is not difficult if you read and study the Bible and leave fanciful notions out of it.

I think I answered that, pay attention.

 

[Berean]

It's clear in your exegesis you don't have the context to build a coherent interpretation. Things like "its tricky" and "can mean" are substitutes this is what it means.

It may not be clear to you, but it's clear to me and my brethren. I'm simply answering questions. It may not be coherent to you, because you want to pick and choose scriptures to debate over, but one verse may take you somewhere else when answering it. There isn't enough room in the comments section to explain it all.

Let me ask, are you with the amended or the non-amended brethren?

 

[Berean]

He argued there is no fallen angels in scripture and no Satan.

I earlier observed they're here to insist on pushing rhetoric that implies God is evil. And everything that is of Satan in scripture, even the trials of Job,is God.

I'm amazed he's allowed to continue.

According to them, Satan is sin personified. It's the battle we have within ourselves, the battle of the flesh. They also deny that Jesus pre-existed before His birth on earth.

 

[Hiddenthings]

It may not be clear to you, but it's clear to me and my brethren. I'm simply answering questions. It may not be coherent to you, because you want to pick and choose scriptures to debate over, but one verse may take you somewhere else when answering it. There isn't enough room in the comments section to explain it all.

Let me ask, are you with the amended or the non-amended brethren?

What does this have to do with Isaiah 14?

 

[pandaflower]

According to them, Satan is sin personified. It's the battle we have within ourselves, the battle of the flesh. They also deny that Jesus pre-existed before His birth on earth.

Yes. They're atheists.

 

[Berean]

Yes. They're atheists.

I think they would counter-argue that. They consider themselves Christians, just with a different view. No different than Catholics and various Protestant churches out there.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Yes. They're atheists.

This is inaccurate Panda and shows you have not been reading or comprehending its meaning.

I'll give you an example to work on.

An obedient divine angel is called a satan in Numbers 22:22

This passage shows a divine angel acting in full obedience to God's command. The angel stands in Balaam’s path as an adversary, not out of personal will, but in direct response to God's anger over Balaam’s disobedience. Far from acting independently, the angel faithfully executes God's judgment, underscoring that divine angels always act under God's authority, never in rebellion.

And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him




So you are wrong is assuming the word Satan is only used for the personification of sin.

You should read yourself more widely and discover its many meanings.

 

[pandaflower]

I think they would counter-argue that. They consider themselves Christians, just with a different view. No different than Catholics and various Protestant churches out there.

You can't speak for them at all.

Protestant or Catholic, none speak as they do.

Of course theirs is opinion. That it counters the Bible always,is something else.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Wick Stick The Hebrew word used here is Azazel is derived from 'ez, meaning "goat" (linked to strength), and 'azal, which means "to go away" or "to disappear."

Together, the term Azazel conveys the idea of "the goat of departure" or "the goat of removal." It symbolizes one capable of bearing away the sins that were figuratively placed upon it, a powerful image of sin being carried far away.

How on earth can people manipulate this into some mythological being?

@Wick Stick

I didn’t realise at first that you were referring to Azâzêl from the Book of Enoch, I forgot how much you tend to draw on extrabiblical sources.

The answer is no, I see no connection between Azazel in Leviticus and the angel by that name mentioned in the Book of Enoch.

While I do believe God can send a strong delusion to those who choose to believe lies and reject the Apostolic truth, I also believe it was divine guidance to exclude the Book of Enoch from the Bible.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Wick Stick

Here is an example:

8.1 And Azâzêl taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals áof the earthñ and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all colouring tinctures.

R. H. Charles and W. O. E. Oesterley, The Book of Enoch (London: Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge, 1917), Enoch 8:1.

The idea of angels teaching men to make weapons of war stands in stark contrast to their role in revealing the heavenly pattern of worship and the design of the Tabernacle’s furnishings in Exodus 25:8-9.

The occurrence of such an event throughout history is not historically tenable, and it remains a reality entirely unknown in our world today.

Imagine if a Christian were to post in this forum that rebel angels taught humans how to make nuclear weapons, as if that were common knowledge.

Although I would not put it past some to say these things.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I think I answered that, pay attention.

You think or you know?

 

[Berean]

You think or you know?

I know ... pay attention.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I know ... pay attention.

Yeah...nah! not identified in your reply

The wicked face destruction in the Second Death. The devil and his angels will attack the camp of the saints during the Little Season, but they will not succeed in gaining life. People who work with Satan are compared to his kids, and he is their father: "You [children of disobedience] are of your father the devil" (John 8:44). When the Millennium ends, the "children" of Satan will be those who cannot change. The land will be purified when they enter the Second Death.

It appears you used John 8:44 out of context.

Cain was the murderer from the begining (Gen 4:8,9)

In fact, this was well known and documented for you if you were paying attention to the Biblical narrative and not mythological faniciful notions.

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks.

1 John 3:12 We should not be like Cain, who was of the evil one (serpent, sin personified) and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own deeds were evil and his brother's righteous.

Jude 11 Woe to them! For they walked in the way of Cain and abandoned themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam's error and perished in Korah's rebellion.

The red text is an issue for you Berean!

You know what you need but you don't have it - terrible place to be in.

 

[Berean]

You know what you need but you don't have it - terrible place to be in.

Seems to me the only "Hidden thing" from you is the Truth. You're worse than the Witnesses jumping around from scripture to scripture, taking them out of context to prove a belief system that isn't there. And I really don't have the time for your biblical juggling act.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Seems to me the only "Hidden thing" from you is the Truth. You're worse than the Witnesses jumping around from scripture to scripture, taking them out of context to prove a belief system that isn't there. And I really don't have the time for your biblical juggling act.

So, no answer then?

Who did you think the first murderer was?