Unlocking Isaiah 14

[Wick Stick]

A literal goat? I need more Wick, sorry

Most Bible scholars today think that Azazel is the name of a god or devil - that's why it appears as a name rather than being translated. One die is cast for the Lord, and the other die is cast for... who? a literal goat?

Ancient tradition ALSO records it as the name of a fallen angel (that pesky book of Enoch).

I don't need you to conclude that it's a fallen angel... I'd kind of prefer you disproved that tbh. But it's a real argument, both from an academic and historical perspective. It deserves more than a summary dismissal

 

[Hiddenthings]

Most Bible scholars today think that Azazel is the name of a god or devil - that's why it appears as a name rather than being translated. One die is cast for the Lord, and the other die is cast for... who? a literal goat?

Ancient tradition ALSO records it as the name of a fallen angel (that pesky book of Enoch).

I don't need you to conclude that it's a fallen angel... I'd kind of prefer you disproved that tbh. But it's a real argument, both from an academic and historical perspective. It deserves more than a summary dismissal

You are talking about Leviticus 16:10 right?

Leviticus 16:10 “But the goat on which the lot fell for Azazel (Goat of departure) shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Azazel.”

It's clearly defined twice.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Most Bible scholars today think that Azazel is the name of a god or devil - that's why it appears as a name rather than being translated. One die is cast for the Lord, and the other die is cast for... who? a literal goat?

Ancient tradition ALSO records it as the name of a fallen angel (that pesky book of Enoch).

I don't need you to conclude that it's a fallen angel... I'd kind of prefer you disproved that tbh. But it's a real argument, both from an academic and historical perspective. It deserves more than a summary dismissal

The two goats in Leviticus 16 prophetically represent aspects of Christ’s redemptive work. Through both his life and death, Christ brought glory to the Father (John 17:4–5). The goat that was kept alive and presented before Yahweh foreshadows Christ’s resurrection, following the completion of his role as a sin offering.

As Paul wrote in Romans 4:25: "Jesus our Lord... was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification." This living goat symbolizes the risen Christ, who now serves as our advocate before God. His resurrection is the assurance of the effectiveness of the atonement he made (Romans 1:1–4).

The phrase "to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness" refers to the process further described in verses 21–22, where the sins of the people are symbolically placed on the goat, which is then sent away, representing the complete removal of sin through Christ.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Wick Stick The Hebrew word used here is Azazel is derived from 'ez, meaning "goat" (linked to strength), and 'azal, which means "to go away" or "to disappear."

Together, the term Azazel conveys the idea of "the goat of departure" or "the goat of removal." It symbolizes one capable of bearing away the sins that were figuratively placed upon it, a powerful image of sin being carried far away.

How on earth can people manipulate this into some mythological being?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Well, Wick and I have discussed openly and calmly Isaiah 14 & Ezek 28 and your evil being is not there.

He’s there all right, hiding in plain sight.....his greatest victory is convincing people that he does not exist.
How do you fight an enemy who isn’t there?

What is the armour that we have to put on, and who is it a protection from?

Eph 6:11-12...ESV...
“Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm.”

Who are these “forces of evil in heavenly places”? It’s not the governments or the authorities...it is the “cosmic powers” who control them....satan and his demons.

What this means is you can no longer use those chapters to support your false teaching because the true interpratation has been shown you.

You understand this Jane?

Well, there you go again....assuming that your interpretation is the only correct one...do you understand that you may well be in error. Won’t it be interesting to find out?
Asking me....“Do you understand this”, is assuming that I don’t understand the Scriptures after careful study for many decades. I understand perfectly, I simply reject your concepts. You need to realise how insulting you are. You do talk down to people....that is bullying. Jesus never bullied anyone.

All I need to do is educate and warn Jane, don't you know God gives the increase?

Well, apparently you don’t know this, since you seem to want people to agree with you no matter what they offer in defence of their own beliefs. Present your truth, but don’t force it down people’s throats as if they must come over to your way of thinking.

However, I have multiple posts where you refuse to answer a very simple question.

Why did God create an animal that was more cunning (or shrewd) and able to speak, unlike the rest of the animals?

And the very simple answer is that he didn’t.
God did not create the devil...he is self-made. And as a once magnificent spirit being he was assigned a responsible role in the garden of Eden, but his own beauty got the better of him, and he gave in to the temptation to take what did not belong to him.....human hostages that would give him worship. That’s why Jesus’ sacrifice is called a ransom.....it was the set price, paid to free those in captivity to sin and death. ...not the instigators of those things, but those caught in the fallout.

So Jane, I invite you to identify who Peter had in mind as the false accuser. Show me the context of the passage and demonstrate that it’s referring to a fallen angel.

It wouldn’t matter what I showed you....nothing to date has altered your position, but that is not up to me or you. God knows the members of Christ’s flock and those on the receiving end of his judgment will be shocked and dismayed....offering their excuses to him as if he doesn’t know his own sheep. (Matt 7:21-23)

Correct.

My question was....
“When it says “your adversary the devil” is seeking prey....why is this “adversary” intent on causing “suffering”, like a dangerous predator?
Your answer makes no sense. Why would a loving God do that? The answer, like the other question is simple....He didn’t appoint a deceiver or an adversary...that was all satan’s own work. An abuse of his free will which caused the humans to abuse theirs. It’s not rocket science.

Okay, so you understand the meaning of the word so why are you unable to identify the opposer?

If you cannot then say so, if you can then provide the evidence.

See, this is what is frustrating...I have shown you all the evidence from the Bible, and yet to see only what you want to see. Satan the devil has his angels. He “transforms himself into an angel of light”, like all spirit creatures have the ability to transform themselves into whatever they wish to in order to deceive.

Panda asked who was responsible for Job’s suffering, and I gave a very clear response backed by evidence.

The Bible clearly says it was “the adversary”...the one who was “opposing” God....not working for him.
Why would God hand Job over to this malicious tormentor? Job was the most faithful servant of God at the time, so he had no need to test his faith, as it was demonstrated every day. It was God who asked the devil if he had “set his heart” on the faithful man Job? As the reader of thoughts, God already knew that satan was planning an attack on this man, so God set the boundaries for his attacks. God knew in advance that Job’s faith would withstand these trials. (1 Cor 10:12-13)

The question now is, will Panda accept that evidence, or continue to misrepresent Job’s adversary as a fallen angel?

The question is, will you continue to reject the evidence that is presented to you? A fallen angel is spoken about throughout the Bible, and he is the one who will receive the head wound of Gen 3:15. He has already delivered the heel wound to Jesus, but his day is coming, along with all those whom he can deceive.

You know the Lord spent time with the disciples before ascending and they asked a vital question of him.

"Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?"

Jesus responded in Acts 1:7:

“It is not for you to know the times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority.”

A time question came with a time answer.

Jane, if you had spent all that time with the risen Christ and asked that question, what do you think it reveals about the nature of their conversations?

Well, unless you realise why he answered them the way he did, you will never see the big picture.
Their statement was about what they did not yet comprehend......that the kingdom was NOT to be established on the earth, but that the Holy Spirit would help them understand why he had to die and return to heaven without them. They would follow, but not yet. The sacred mystery of the Kingdom would finally be revealed to them, giving them a “heavenly calling”. (Heb 3:1)

John 14:18-19; 25-26;28-29...
“I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you see Me; because I live, you will live also. “These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. . . . But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ . . . .If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. Now I have told you before it happens, so that when it happens, you may believe.

Jesus said he was going to “prepare a place for them in his Father’s house”...situated on a “heavenly Mt Zion” in a “new Jerusalem”.

Why did Jesus say to Peter, when he suggested that he would not have that destiny at all, “get behind me satan”? Jesus rebuked him and said he did not have God’s thoughts but men’s. Peter, by his words, was emulating the devil in trying to undermine his resolve to carry out his mission that had to end in his death.

Who was it that delivered the whole world over to the devil to rule? (Luke 4:5-7) Why is the whole world under the power of the wicked one? (1John 5:19) If you don’t think he is real, then there is not much more to say.....all the best with that.

 

[Hiddenthings]

He’s there all right, hiding in plain sight.....his greatest victory is convincing people that he does not exist.
How do you fight an enemy who isn’t there?

Do you see how this comes across, Jane?

If I asked you to describe Abraham, David, or the Apostle Paul, you could likely give a clear overview of their character and actions.

But if I asked you to identify your so-called evil fallen angel, are these really the verses and explanations you'd rely on?

???

God would have you not only wrestling with your nature but also an invisible powerful enemy, one you personally know nothing about.

Soon, I’m going to go through your reply piece by piece and ask you to provide evidence. We both know you won’t be able to, but I’ll do it to demonstrate just how unbiblical your belief really is.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Eph 6:11-12...ESV...
“Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm.”

Who are these “forces of evil in heavenly places”? It’s not the governments or the authorities...it is the “cosmic powers” who control them....satan and his demons.

Paul certainly used vivid language here to describe the enemy responsible for killing Jesus and persecuting members of the body throughout Asia Minor.

What kind of power are we talking about?

Revelation 2:9–10 “I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

The High Priest presided over this synagogue, and its influence reached all the way to Rome, where they convinced the authorities to imprison followers of Christ. (eventually they would use them as lamps in their colosseums)

Now, I understand you don’t believe the Devil is literally throwing your JW brothers and sisters into prison today, because the context and nature of persecution back then were very different. What’s happening now is more subtle: it’s spiritual apathy working against your community in a way unlike anything you've experienced before.

I know my local JW community and I can tell you they are not being imprisoned today for their beliefs.

Jesus was revealing to the church what was really happening behind the political scenes, and they understood the need to be especially vigilant knowing that if they were caught by the local authorities, imprisonment would follow.

 

[Hiddenthings]

And the very simple answer is that he didn’t.
God did not create the devil...he is self-made.

Okay, a couple of things going on here Jane.

1. God is the only creator Isaiah 45:18 - HE is God!

2. No Divine being is self-made - all have been rewarded with Eternal Life and they share in God's Eternal Nature

Show me a verse that teaches your fallen angel is self-made.

And as a once magnificent spirit being he was assigned a responsible role in the garden of Eden, but his own beauty got the better of him, and he gave in to the temptation to take what did not belong to him.....human hostages that would give him worship.

Now you are talking about the King of Tyre - is this your evidence? Your only evidence?

That’s why Jesus’ sacrifice is called a ransom.....it was the set price, paid to free those in captivity to sin and death. ...not the instigators of those things, but those caught in the fallout.

Sin and death relate to our nature Jane and has nothing to do with a fallen angel

The Devil (sin's power) had the power of death but that power has been destroy through the obedient death of Jesus who bore that nature and overcame.

Hebrews 2:14–18 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one (sin personified) who has the power of death, that is, the devil,

But what was the result Jane of this sin power being destroyed?

15 and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. 16 For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. 17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

There is not slavery to a fallen angel here - no self-made evil power just you bias nature which has a bent toward sin.

The wages of sin is death, yet Jesus, who committed no sin, died to sin once for all and now lives to God. Though He didn’t deserve that penalty (though inherited it), by willingly receiving it, God could justly break sin’s power. Through faith in Christ’s sacrifice, the way is opened for others to walk in newness of life, following his example by faith.

There is no other power besides God and the power man welds is temporary - a power Christ has overcome by faith.

 

[Hiddenthings]

The Bible clearly says it was “the adversary”...the one who was “opposing” God....not working for him.
Why would God hand Job over to this malicious tormentor? Job was the most faithful servant of God at the time, so he had no need to test his faith, as it was demonstrated every day. It was God who asked the devil if he had “set his heart” on the faithful man Job? As the reader of thoughts, God already knew that satan was planning an attack on this man, so God set the boundaries for his attacks. God knew in advance that Job’s faith would withstand these trials. (1 Cor 10:12-13)

Firstly, we both know this adversary is not the arch enemy of God that much is certain!

You have no way of identifying the adversary Jane because there isn't one adversary but many in the OT!

• God — 2 Samuel 24:1 compared with 1 Chronicles 21:1
• An obedient divine angel — Numbers 22:22
• Hadad the Edomite — 1 Kings 11:14
• Peter — Matthew 16:23

In this instance the identity of the adversary is not central to the story which is why its gone after two chapters and never mentioned again.
Who attributes the evil to whom?

• Job 1:21 — “The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.”
• Job 2:10 — “Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?”
• Job 42:11 — After his trials, Job’s friends acknowledge God’s involvement in his restoration:
  “All his brothers and sisters and everyone who had known him before came and ate with him in his house. They comforted and consoled him over all the trouble the LORD had brought on him...”

And:

• Lamentations 3:37 — “Who can speak and have it happen if the LORD has not decreed it?” — reinforces God's ultimate authority.
• Isaiah 45:7 — “I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.”

You can see the issue you have Jane?

Not a single character in the whole book knows about your fallen angel?

Explain how that is possible?

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Aunty Jane

You realise you have still avoided answering the question:

Why did God create an animal that was more cunning (or shrewd) and able to speak, unlike the rest of the animals?

 

[Hiddenthings]

Well, unless you realise why he answered them the way he did, you will never see the big picture.
Their statement was about what they did not yet comprehend......that the kingdom was NOT to be established on the earth, but that the Holy Spirit would help them understand why he had to die and return to heaven without them. They would follow, but not yet. The sacred mystery of the Kingdom would finally be revealed to them, giving them a “heavenly calling”. (Heb 3:1)

No Jane, let me show you the big picture:

During the forty days the disciples spent with the Master before his ascension, they repeatedly asked him about the timing of the kingdom’s restoration. This persistent questioning prompted Jesus to share the parable of the nobleman (Luke 19:11). However, Jesus deliberately avoided specifying the exact time of his return, as he himself did not know that detail at the time (Mark 13:32). Later, further insights were revealed to the apostle John through the symbolic visions of the Apocalypse.

After forty days with the Master, the disciples had a clear understanding of what and where the “kingdom of God” was. With this knowledge, they earnestly sought a threefold answer to their question, “Wilt you at this time...?”

1. Their hopes were fixed on the coming of a divine, political, messianic kingdom centered in Israel. Even Roman Catholic theologians, in a footnote to the Jerusalem Bible, acknowledge that the apostles identified the messianic kingdom with the political restoration of David’s dynasty (Matt. 4:17). Yet, many churches today refuse to accept this. I know the JW's once did.
2. The disciples were confident that Christ would restore the kingdom to Israel. Their only remaining question was “When?”
3. In his response, Jesus addressed the core of their question, showing that he fully understood and agreed with the point they were making.

This is not difficult to interpret but you seem to be making hard on yourself.

Why?

 

[Hiddenthings]

Why did Jesus say to Peter, when he suggested that he would not have that destiny at all, “get behind me satan”? Jesus rebuked him and said he did not have God’s thoughts but men’s.

Correct you identifed the adversary as the "mind and thinking of man"

Peter, by his words, was emulating the devil in trying to undermine his resolve to carry out his mission that had to end in his death.

No, he wasn't he was reasoning upon the flesh and not the Spirit - you know better than this Jane!

Who was it that delivered the whole world over to the devil to rule? (Luke 4:5-7)

You are talking about Jesus being tempted to rule over the kingdoms of this world....full of sin and death! He didn't want this defiled world but the one which is coming from Heaven.

It's a rulership the Pharisees and Sadducees would have welcomed!

Why is the whole world under the power of the wicked one? (1John 5:19)

This false doctrine has made it so difficult for you to see the truth - saddens me no end!


The answers are all there if you wish to look!

1 John 2:16 "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

What did Jesus overcome?

If you don’t think he is real, then there is not much more to say.....all the best with that.

It’s not simply a matter of belief, I know that this imaginary being has been ingrained in your thinking, which is why the Word has little effect on you in your current state of deception. (said respectfully)

I care more than you make me out to be.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You realise you have still avoided answering the question:

Why did God create an animal that was more cunning (or shrewd) and able to speak, unlike the rest of the animals?

And this statement here shows me that you didn’t really hear a word I said....and probably never will.
I did answer the question in detail but as usual, it appears to have gone straight over your head.

Are you familiar with that old saying....?
“A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still”.

It is pointless to continue if you cannot even discern what I meant when I said that “God did not create the devil”...he is “self made”.
God created all things, but the sentient spirit beings who share life with him in heaven, like those made “in God’s image” on earth, have free will. Abusing his free will out of a selfish desire for worship is how the devil is “self-made”. Genesis tells us that, and so do the temptations he made to Jesus. All the devil wanted was “one act of worship”.....and that would have been enough to derail God’s rescue mission for Adam’s children.

Satan showed his character again with what he inflicted on Job....the most awful trials any human could be dealt.....and all because satan slandered not only God, but his most faithful servant on earth. Job actually represented all men, because the devil said....”everything a man has he will give in exchange for his life”.....He did not say “everything Job has”...so our trials of faith too, have the same source.

The King of Tyre manifested the traits of the one he emulated. This human king was not in the garden of Eden, nor was he taken by his own beauty. He was hardly a “cherub”....and he was born, not “created” like satan was.

What do you know about angels? They have rank and order. They possess power that humans do not have.
They can materialise human bodies at will, Gabriel and others did, and as Jesus did after his resurrection, and return to spirit form.
Flesh and blood bodies cannot exist in heaven, so all who go to heaven to rule with Christ will be resurrected and “transformed” or “reborn” in spirit bodies, so that they can live in the presence of God where he resides, and from where the Kingdom will rule the whole earth.

His titles...”satan” and “devil” are based on his character traits....these are not his actual names as Jehovah has never allowed his name to be revealed. Faithful angels in the Bible refused to give their names. (Read the account in Judges 13:17-21 and see something amazing about angels)
The only two who are mentioned by name, are Michael and Gabriel.
The three angels who appeared to Abraham, were in human form...they ate and drank what was provided for them. One spoke for Jehovah and was in all probability “the Word” as he was always Jehovah’s spokesman.

The titles given to satan show us his personality...he is a “resistor”...a “slanderer”....an “opposer”....an “adversary”.....and he is the epitome of evil who has fathered children here on earth, not literally but spiritually, like the Pharisees whom Jesus encountered, clearly manifested the traits of the devil. (John 8:44)

If you are convinced that satan, (as a disobedient self-seeking fallen angel, who managed to take God’s purpose for the human race off course, and also take many of his brother angels with him in rebellion) doesn’t exist.....then nothing I say will make one scrap of difference. Who are the demons in your belief system? Michael has his angels, and they do battle with satan and his angels. (Rev 12:7-12) This battle is real, though observed only by the conditions on earth that follow it. (Matt 24:3-14)

You see scripture only one way and that’s your way....we all have our own view of scripture...but God has only one truth, and we can’t all be right, so I will stick to what I believe is the evidence in my own studies, and you can stick to yours.

I’m sorry you wasted so much time in response....because nothing you have offered is valid IMO, but it is your choice to believe as your heart impels you.....I won’t waste time on this merry-go-round any more.
Rehashing is not beneficial to anyone.

 

[pandaflower]

And this statement here shows me that you didn’t really hear a word I said....and probably never will.
I did answer the question in detail but as usual, it appears to have gone straight over your head.

Are you familiar with that old saying....?
“A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still”.

It is pointless to continue if you cannot even discern what I meant when I said that “God did not create the devil”...he is “self made”.
God created all things, but the sentient spirit beings who share life with him in heaven, like those made “in God’s image” on earth, have free will. Abusing his free will out of a selfish desire for worship is how the devil is “self-made”. Genesis tells us that, and so do the temptations he made to Jesus. All the devil wanted was “one act of worship”.....and that would have been enough to derail God’s rescue mission for Adam’s children.

Satan showed his character again with what he inflicted on Job....the most awful trials any human could be dealt.....and all because satan slandered not only God, but his most faithful servant on earth. Job actually represented all men, because the devil said....”everything a man has he will give in exchange for his life”.....He did not say “everything Job has”...so our trials of faith too, have the same source.

The King of Tyre manifested the traits of the one he emulated. This human king was not in the garden of Eden, nor was he taken by his own beauty. He was hardly a “cherub”....and he was born, not “created” like satan was.

What do you know about angels? They have rank and order. They possess power that humans do not have.
They can materialise human bodies at will, Gabriel and others did, and as Jesus did after his resurrection, and return to spirit form.
Flesh and blood bodies cannot exist in heaven, so all who go to heaven to rule with Christ will be resurrected and “transformed” or “reborn” in spirit bodies, so that they can live in the presence of God where he resides, and from where the Kingdom will rule the whole earth.

His titles...”satan” and “devil” are based on his character traits....these are not his actual names as Jehovah has never allowed his name to be revealed. Faithful angels in the Bible refused to give their names. (Read the account in Judges 13:17-21 and see something amazing about angels)
The only two who are mentioned by name, are Michael and Gabriel.
The three angels who appeared to Abraham, were in human form...they ate and drank what was provided for them. One spoke for Jehovah and was in all probability “the Word” as he was always Jehovah’s spokesman.

The titles given to satan show us his personality...he is a “resistor”...a “slanderer”....an “opposer”....an “adversary”.....and he is the epitome of evil who has fathered children here on earth, not literally but spiritually, like the Pharisees whom Jesus encountered, clearly manifested the traits of the devil. (John 8:44)

If you are convinced that satan, (as a disobedient self-seeking fallen angel, who managed to take God’s purpose for the human race off course, and also take many of his brother angels with him in rebellion) doesn’t exist.....then nothing I say will make one scrap of difference. Who are the demons in your belief system? Michael has his angels, and they do battle with satan and his angels. (Rev 12:7-12) This battle is real, though observed only by the conditions on earth that follow it. (Matt 24:3-14)

You see scripture only one way and that’s your way....we all have our own view of scripture...but God has only one truth, and we can’t all be right, so I will stick to what I believe is the evidence in my own studies, and you can stick to yours.

I’m sorry you wasted so much time in response....because nothing you have offered is valid IMO, but it is your choice to believe as your heart impels you.....I won’t waste time on this merry-go-round any more.
Rehashing is not beneficial to anyone.

He argued there is no fallen angels in scripture and no Satan.

I earlier observed they're here to insist on pushing rhetoric that implies God is evil.And everything that is of Satan in scripture, even the trials of Job,is God.

I'm amazed he's allowed to continue.

 

[Hiddenthings]

And this statement here shows me that you didn’t really hear a word I said....and probably never will

I did answer the question in detail but as usual, it appears to have gone straight over your head.

Are you familiar with that old saying....?
“A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still”.

It is pointless to continue if you cannot even discern what I meant when I said that “God did not create the devil”...he is “self made”.
God created all things, but the sentient spirit beings who share life with him in heaven, like those made “in God’s image” on earth, have free will. Abusing his free will out of a selfish desire for worship is how the devil is “self-made”. Genesis tells us that, and so do the temptations he made to Jesus. All the devil wanted was “one act of worship”.....and that would have been enough to derail God’s rescue mission for Adam’s children.

Satan showed his character again with what he inflicted on Job....the most awful trials any human could be dealt.....and all because satan slandered not only God, but his most faithful servant on earth. Job actually represented all men, because the devil said....”everything a man has he will give in exchange for his life”.....He did not say “everything Job has”...so our trials of faith too, have the same source.

The King of Tyre manifested the traits of the one he emulated. This human king was not in the garden of Eden, nor was he taken by his own beauty. He was hardly a “cherub”....and he was born, not “created” like satan was.

There are so many questions you could ask that chapter and none of them would lead you to your creature.

What do you know about angels? They have rank and order. They possess power that humans do not have.
They can materialise human bodies at will, Gabriel and others did, and as Jesus did after his resurrection, and return to spirit form.
Flesh and blood bodies cannot exist in heaven, so all who go to heaven to rule with Christ will be resurrected and “transformed” or “reborn” in spirit bodies, so that they can live in the presence of God where he resides, and from where the Kingdom will rule the whole earth.

His titles...”satan” and “devil” are based on his character traits....these are not his actual names as Jehovah has never allowed his name to be revealed. Faithful angels in the Bible refused to give their names. (Read the account in Judges 13:17-21 and see something amazing about angels)
The only two who are mentioned by name, are Michael and Gabriel.
The three angels who appeared to Abraham, were in human form...they ate and drank what was provided for them. One spoke for Jehovah and was in all probability “the Word” as he was always Jehovah’s spokesman.

The titles given to satan show us his personality...he is a “resistor”...a “slanderer”....an “opposer”....an “adversary”.....and he is the epitome of evil who has fathered children here on earth, not literally but spiritually, like the Pharisees whom Jesus encountered, clearly manifested the traits of the devil. (John 8:44)

If you are convinced that satan, (as a disobedient self-seeking fallen angel, who managed to take God’s purpose for the human race off course, and also take many of his brother angels with him in rebellion) doesn’t exist.....then nothing I say will make one scrap of difference. Who are the demons in your belief system? Michael has his angels, and they do battle with satan and his angels. (Rev 12:7-12) This battle is real, though observed only by the conditions on earth that follow it. (Matt 24:3-14)

You see scripture only one way and that’s your way....we all have our own view of scripture...but God has only one truth, and we can’t all be right, so I will stick to what I believe is the evidence in my own studies, and you can stick to yours.

I’m sorry you wasted so much time in response....because nothing you have offered is valid IMO, but it is your choice to believe as your heart impels you.....I won’t waste time on this merry-go-round any more.
Rehashing is not beneficial to anyone.

Post #47 poses a real challenge to your position, and I suspect you won’t respond to it, honestly, I wouldn’t either if I believed what you do.

Your response offers no evidence, just another attempt to force a narrative that isn't found in Scripture. Your understanding of angels and what the Bible actually teaches about them is seriously lacking.

You still cannot bring yourself to answer the questions on Genesis 3:1 and not able to identify your creature and support those things you think you know about it.

Maybe in time you will begin to ask the right questions and seek those answers. God willing!

 

[Hiddenthings]

He argued there is no fallen angels in scripture and no Satan.

I earlier observed they're here to insist on pushing rhetoric that implies God is evil.And everything that is of Satan in scripture, even the trials of Job,is God.

I'm amazed he's allowed to continue.

Because you don't understand Hebrews 12:6 "For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives."

Your admission is one of not knowing God, His Character and how He works with His Children. You need a fallen angel whereas I need the One who chastises...look up the Word and see its meaning!

 

[Hiddenthings]

I’m sorry you wasted so much time in response....because nothing you have offered is valid IMO, but it is your choice to believe as your heart impels you.....I won’t waste time on this merry-go-round any more.
Rehashing is not beneficial to anyone.

I agree, Jane. This scattered approach to Bible reading, pulling together 5 or 6 unrelated contexts doesn't help in properly identifying the true false accuser or adversary being referred to. Someone taught you to do this and if you can unteach it you would be much the wiser.

For instance, there is no relationship between the adversary in Job and Jesus' remark about who their father is in John 8. Can you work this out for yourself? I believe so.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I think it's time to Unlock Job.

 

[Berean]

Some important questions need to be asked:

• Is Satan really accompanied by the sound of viols (or harps, as the RSV translates it) as mentioned in verse 11?
• Is Satan to be covered with worms in the grave (verse 11), or isn’t he rather destined to be cast into the lake of fire, as stated in Revelation 20:10?

This is, of course, symbolic. Tell me, do you believe Jesus will return blowing a trumpet (1 Thess 4:16), or that the seven trumpet blast of Revelation 8 are literal? Satan's pride, power, and enjoyment will follow him into Sheol. Just like how worms and maggots break down a dead animal or person, they will also figuratively eat away at Satan. This means that the arrogant one will not only be buried alongside the powerful people of the world but will also meet his end just like an ordinary person.

• Why would Satan desire a place “in the sides of the north” (verse 13)? What does that mean in his case?

The phrase "mount of the congregation" shows that Satan wanted to be like Jesus, who is the head of the congregation (Church) in every way (he is above both angels and humans), even though he hasn't used this power and control yet. Eph 5:23, Col 1:18

• If Satan is supposed to be a fallen angel, why is he referred to as "the man" in verse 16?

Let's look at verse 16. "They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee," can mean two things. (1) If Satan shows up, people will witness his shame and downfall. (2) If he doesn’t show up, those in the spiritual world will see him being brought low. The Revised Standard version is interesting: "Those who see you will stare at you and think about you." This suggests that he will appear in some way.

Satan's appearance is a tricky topic. Right before Babylon falls, there will be amazing signs and wonders linked to the Papacy gaining power for a short time. (You may not agree with this interpretation) It’s possible that the Adversary will show up during that brief moment of power. But the Church needs to be gone before Babylon falls, and Babylon will fall before Satan is cast into the abyss. The sequence will be (1) the Church is complete, (2) Babylon falls, and (3) Satan is abyssed.

Just like during the Flood, when Satan was "bound" to the earth's atmosphere, if he appears on earth soon, he might be temporarily "frozen" as a human so that people can look at him. After that, he would be invisible during the Kingdom until he is released in the Little Season.

The Lord used the picture of Satan’s being bound in a prison house merely to show that he will not be loosed until the due time in the Little Season (Rev. 20:1-3). Jesus’ great power as a divine being will forcibly restrain and imprison Satan with a time-lock until then. His imprisonment could actually be temporary death, or he could be restrained in a spirit prison with spirit chains. “Thou shalt be brought down to hell” (verse 15) seems to suggest death, but either way he will be completely immobilized. After the Little Season, Satan will go into Second Death.

• Why would Satan say, “I will ascend into heaven,” if he already had access to heaven until 1914, as Jehovah’s Witnesses claim?

You'd have to ask @Aunty Jane and @Keiw, they're the resident Jehovah's Witnesses here.

• What land did Satan ever possess that would justify him receiving a dishonourable burial upon its destruction (verse 20)?
• Where are Satan’s people buried (verse 20)? Isn’t the lake of fire described as the final destination for Satan and his followers?

The wicked face destruction in the Second Death. The devil and his angels will attack the camp of the saints during the Little Season, but they will not succeed in gaining life. People who work with Satan are compared to his kids, and he is their father: "You [children of disobedience] are of your father the devil" (John 8:44). When the Millennium ends, the "children" of Satan will be those who cannot change. The land will be purified when they enter the Second Death.

• When did Satan ever rule over a prison and refuse to release its captives, as suggested in verse 17?

Verses 16 and 17 describe Satan’s destructive actions: he “made the earth to tremble,” “did shake kingdoms,” “made the world as a wilderness,” “destroyed the cities,” and “opened not the house of his prisoners.” Satan is responsible for wars and destruction. Greed, violence, lust, etc., are all part of war, and Satan is behind these evils. Isa. 14:18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them,

 

[Aunty Jane]

He argued there is no fallen angels in scripture and no Satan.

There is a spiritual “blindness” that the devil creates in people....(2 Cor 4:3-4) This is a blindness of the mind...the centre that processes all information....so if the mind is blinded, they can’t see or discern anything other than what they want to believe. Yet Paul says it can only happen to “unbelievers”...so it makes you wonder how many “unbelievers” there are who think that they are actually “believers”...
so what is a “believer”as opposed to an “unbeliever” from God’s perspective? Do you ever wonder about that?

I earlier observed they're here to insist on pushing rhetoric that implies God is evil.And everything that is of Satan in scripture, even the trials of Job,is God.

Sadly, to swallow that rhetoric is to be taken captive by the very one whose existence they deny. How can the “God of love” create humans to suffer by planting satanic thinking in them from their creation? It doesn’t make sense! How is that making them in his image? Does the Creator have these character flaws himself?

I'm amazed he's allowed to continue.

Everyone is permitted by God to hold whatever beliefs appeal to their hearts. We, by our own choices show God who we really are at heart....and it is the leanings of the heart that are most important.

Satan has created a counterfeit ‘Christianity’ as Jesus said he would, (Matt 13: 24-30; 36-42) so as to mislead even the chosen ones if he could (Matt 24:24)....confusion has taken over the Christian world and created so many ‘brands’ of one product that very few seem to be able to find the genuine article......like trying to find a diamond in a large pile of broken glass. You have to know what you are looking for. Like counterfeit currency you just have to know what the real one looks like, before you can spot the fakes.
In a world ruled by the devil, nothing is as it appears. (1 John 5:19)

So where does this leave the genuine truth seekers? God, as the reader of hearts, knows those whom he wants as citizens in his coming Kingdom. And he gives us the confidence to know the truth when we hear it. It will strike a chord, resonating with us, like finding that diamond!

The scriptures tell us that no one can come to the Father except through the son....but no one can come to the son, without an invitation from his Father. (John 6:44; 65) So in all that muddle, there is one truth that shines like beacon to those who have been invited by the Father to be disciples of his son. They will be “few” compared with the majority, and will not be believed by the hoodwinked majority... (Matt 7:13-14;21-23)

This will show in the “fruitage” they reveal in their daily lives......and by the amount of opposition they receive for not believing what mainstream “Christianity” teaches. (John 15:18-21) Remember how it was with Jesus and his disciples in the first century? The opposition they received was primarily from those who purported to worship the same God. But by then the Jews had sunk into deep spiritual ruin. It had been hundreds of years since God had sent a prophet to Israel, because he knew that their words would fall on deaf ears. He would fulfill his prophesy and promise to Abraham that a savior would come from Israel, but that he would not be well received, and as Isaiah prophesied, he would suffer and die.

If Satan is the “sower” of what Christendom believes, then we had better know what the Bible teaches, as opposed to what Church theology presents as truth. We have to study carefully to ascertain how much of what is presented as Christian teaching, actually is....no one really knows how far they have strayed until all the evidence is examined and the false teachings are exposed. Just like the Jews who followed the lead of the false shepherds in Israel, and missed out on salvation because of rejecting their Messiah, so too those misled by the teachings of the divided churches of Christendom, will miss out on salvation because they believed the wrong people.

We can only find the truth by sincere prayer, careful study, and a desire to know what the Bible teaches as opposed to what Christendom says that it teaches. Only honest truth seekers will find the diamond, and like the first Christians, will separate themselves from spiritually unclean beliefs and practices.....and the often hypocritical teachings of men. Sometimes it isn’t noticeable until it’s brought to your attention.....

Sites like this facilitate a wide range of views and people can compare what the Bible says to what others believe....it will either attract them or repel them. At least it gives people exposure to other views....leading to a more informed choice.