What's left after I have thrown everything away? (some may wonder)

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St. SteVen

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Fair question.

Obviously, I have discarded much of what the institutional church and evangelicalism has given us.

So, what's left?

Faith is left after you strip away all the unnecessary apologetic trimmings.

In fact, I believe you can't have faith without doing that.

So many Christians want to pretend that they have a "faith" that is founded on absolutes.

That's not faith. IMHO

Honest faith is believing when you don't have all the answers.

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dak

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Fair question.

Obviously, I have discarded much of what the institutional church and evangelicalism has given us.

So, what's left?

Faith is left after you strip away all the unnecessary apologetic trimmings.

In fact, I believe you can't have faith without doing that.

So many Christians want to pretend that they have a "faith" that is founded on absolutes.

That's not faith. IMHO

Honest faith is believing when you don't have all the answers.

[

Hmmm, well, to be honest, that sounds like an extreme version of Kierkegaardian faith, so you really aren't that much different from the mainstream philosophy regarding faith. True biblical faith is evidence based and the evidence is shown firstly, (from the beginning), by the natural creation which in a way mirrors the unseen things, (Romans 1:16-25). Secondly, of course, the evidence is in the written word of Elohim, particularly the Tanach, (Torah, Prophets, Writings), for all the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yohanne the Immerser, (Matthew 11:13).
 

St. SteVen

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Hmmm, well, to be honest, that sounds like an extreme version of Kierkegaardian faith, so you really aren't that much different from the mainstream philosophy regarding faith. True biblical faith is evidence based and the evidence is shown firstly, (from the beginning), by the natural creation which in a way mirrors the unseen things, (Romans 1:16-25). Secondly, of course, the evidence is in the written word of Elohim, particularly the Tanach, (Torah, Prophets, Writings), for all the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yohanne the Immerser, (Matthew 11:13).
Thanks for your post.
I wouldn't say that my faith isn't biblical.
However, I reject a considerable amount of the doctrine/apologetics that accompanied my religious upbringing.

For instance, I reject biblical inerrancy and the hell doctrine. (as two examples)

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dak

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Thanks for your post.
I wouldn't say that my faith isn't biblical.
However, I reject a considerable amount of the doctrine/apologetics that accompanied my religious upbringing.

For instance, I reject biblical inerrancy and the hell doctrine. (as two examples)

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Those appear to be logical conclusions to me, although biblical inerrancy means different things to different people: I believe the autographs would have been inerrant but we obviously do not have anything like that, and shouldn't expect to have any such thing anytime soon, (no sense in getting into Vatican Vault conspiracy theories here, but who knows? they might just have something very close, but if so it wouldn't likely be more than one or maybe two books, (I'm hoping for a full Henok text which they may have purchased from the Qumran robbers, lol).
 
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St. SteVen

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Theistic Agnosticism - The honesty to admit we don't know everything
OP from the topic.

This term came up this morning in a discussion over coffee. I thought it worth discussing further.
Being raised in the church, I was held in a bubble of "we have all the answers."

Now that I am an adult, I realize the reason for that. We DIDN'T have all the questions. I know, I know... (who does?)
What are the spiritual consequences for admitting that we don't know everything?

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St. SteVen

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From the topic OP.

At one time I was bothered by the fact that we don't really have ALL the answers.
There was always a loose end somewhere.

I chased the apologetics in every direction, but always came up short somewhere.
And frankly, I don't remember the specifics, only the moment of my release from the tyranny I had inflicted myself with.

I finally realized that I needed to leave some room for faith.
To live with some mystery. To admit that I didn't have ALL the answers.

This follows-up on my previous topic:


Which was a follow-up to yet another topic.


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Behold

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Fair question.

Obviously, I have discarded much of what the institutional church and evangelicalism has given us.

So, what's left?

Your God is your opinions, and you have all the carnal questions and no real answers... according to your Posts and Threads.... and your Gospel is cursed.

So, what is left for you? @St. SteVen

Your Gospel that you believe, states that you dont have to be forgiven your sin or born again, before you die.
So, you need to disengage from this cult theology, and reconsider the eternity that is fast approaching you.
There are no 2nd chances on the other side.
 

Aunty Jane

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At one time I was bothered by the fact that we don't really have ALL the answers.
There was always a loose end somewhere.
That was me over 50 years ago....I was that “why?” kid who always asked the “why?” for everything my parents taught me about God, but they themselves were without answers provided by their church......and because they never had all the answers, I was eternally frustrated.

In my late teens I threw in the towel and left the church system altogether. Never sure about whether to throw the baby out with the bath water, because all I saw in nature screamed at me of the existence of a super intelligent and loving Creator.....I just never found him in mainstream religion. I tried non-mainstream faiths and found them just as illogical and wanting as the rest. I tried science, thinking that it might have the answers I was looking for, but they too wanted me to “believe” their theories with no real evidence.

I knew there was a God who could answer all my questions (within reason) but I couldn’t find him anywhere....just as I was about to give up, there was a knock at my door......and God found me.
He sent his people to show me from my own Bible, the answers to all my questions. No one said “I think” this scripture means “this or that”...they simply allowed the Bible to speak for itself, without all the dross that has clouded a relatively simple truth as to why we are here on this beautifully prepared planet in the first place.
I chased the apologetics in every direction, but always came up short somewhere.
And frankly, I don't remember the specifics, only the moment of my release from the tyranny I had inflicted myself with.
Interesting that you use the word tyranny.....were you taught about a tyrannical God? Any wonder you rejected him! I couldn’t deal with a hell of eternal torment either.

Was Jesus tyrannical? No! But he was a stickler for the truth...the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
I finally realized that I needed to leave some room for faith.
To live with some mystery. To admit that I didn't have ALL the answers.
Is God looking for those with blind faith? With lots of unanswered questions?
Is that the kind of faith required for what Peter speaks about?
1 Pet 3:14-16.....
“But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are happy. However, do not fear what they fear, nor be disturbed. 15  But sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have, but doing so with a mild temper and deep respect.
16  Maintain a good conscience, so that in whatever way you are spoken against, those who speak against you may be put to shame because of your good conduct as followers of Christ.”

If we love God and his Christ, then we will be students of his word. We do not need to bash people with the Bible, but we can show them what it says if they want to look, because it has the answers.

If we cannot defend our faith, then it’s not worth having. If someone demands a reason for what we believe, can we refer them to God’s word to answer their questions? If someone is searching for God and has questions like you and I had....isn’t it a good idea to at least listen and evaluate what is said and see if it is backed up by Scripture? Sometimes the truth lies in the most unexpected places.

We all have the same access to Scripture today via the Internet...even in poorer nations the WWW is available to all....but like the first Christians we must be guided by those whom God has provided to “feed” us. (Matt 24:45; Heb 13:17) God has always provided shepherds and teachers for his precious sheep.

In the first century the Jews stumbled over the fact that Jesus and his apostles were not “educated” at their recognised rabbinical schools. And today people expect a minister of God to hold a degree in theology. But, is that what is necessary to preach “the good news about God’s Kingdom”? (Matt 24:14)
Most who graduate from those schools have no idea what God’s kingdom is....what it is for ....and what it will accomplish. They see the earth as a training ground for heaven, but haven’t got a clue why they need to go there.
It always goes back to the fundamentals....get them right, and the rest just falls into place like pieces in a jig saw puzzle.
 
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Hiddenthings

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So many Christians want to pretend that they have a "faith" that is founded on absolutes.

That's not faith. IMHO
True or false?

If the evidence is an absolute truth, is it worthy of becoming a foundation piece to faith?

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” Hebrews 11:1

Are you suggestion conviction or evidence is not required for faith?
 
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St. SteVen

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True or false?

If the evidence is an absolute truth, is it worthy of becoming a foundation piece to faith?

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” Hebrews 11:1
Jesus said to Pilate, "... the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth.
Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.” Pilate asked Jesus, "What is truth?" - John 18:37-38 NIV


Still a good question.

Absolute truth - Do we know what it is?

Are you suggestion conviction or evidence is not required for faith?
If there is "absolute evidence", faith is not required.
Faith, as you wrote, is the "conviction of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1

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Hiddenthings

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Jesus said to Pilate, "... the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth.
Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.” Pilate asked Jesus, "What is truth?" - John 18:37-38 NIV


Still a good question.

Absolute truth - Do we know what it is?


If there is "absolute evidence", faith is not required.
Faith, as you wrote, is the "conviction of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1

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I appreciate what you say here but Romans 1 settles this for me.

Romans 1:20 "For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

The ozone layer is just one example of how the earth is protected from being scorched. The things God has made clearly reveal His invisible attributes, especially His care and provision for life on earth. I could name hundreds of things, all of them things visible which speak to the invisible.

His Works & His Words (Two books!) Read Psalm 19 amazing...

RE what is truth?

Ironically, Pilate answers his own question when he declares, “Here is the man!” (John 19:5). Jesus is the truth (John 14:6), and God's Word is truth (John 17:17). In Scripture, “truth” is often synonymous with the Covenants of Promise, God's faithful commitment to His people.

Because God cannot lie this becomes absolute truth!

Truth is like the pearl of great price — the ultimate object of human understanding! What are we willing to do to find it?
 

Hiddenthings

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If there is "absolute evidence", faith is not required.
Faith, as you wrote, is the "conviction of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1
True faith acknowledges the reality of the unseen and chooses to live in light of it.

Paul agrees with you, “We fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal” (2 Corinthians 4:18). Just a few verses later, he adds, “We live by faith, not by sight” (2 Corinthians 5:7).

However, I like to warn those against blind faith which is an unbiblical teaching. Evidence whether seen or unseen is still evidence.
 

St. SteVen

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St. SteVen said:
If there is "absolute evidence", faith is not required.
Faith, as you wrote, is the "conviction of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1
True faith acknowledges the reality of the unseen and chooses to live in light of it.

Paul agrees with you, “We fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal” (2 Corinthians 4:18). Just a few verses later, he adds, “We live by faith, not by sight” (2 Corinthians 5:7).

However, I like to warn those against blind faith which is an unbiblical teaching. Evidence whether seen or unseen is still evidence.
That supports what I wrote. Thanks.

I find it interesting that when Christians agree they respond with a rebuttal, as if the other was wrong.

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Hiddenthings

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I find it interesting that when Christians agree they respond with a rebuttal, as if the other was wrong.
For me, it’s really about testing everything against what’s written in Scripture to see if it holds true. Take, for example, your response to my earlier post, you agreed with what I said, but when it came to the point I raised on Romans 1:20 (post #13), you didn’t address it.

What I've presented is seen (created) evidence vs. unseen (spiritual vision) evidence.

It’s clear that God is fully able to hold people accountable for recognizing His existence through the evidence of creation, they are without excuse. Yet, it's also clear that God desires something greater: that we move beyond His works and believe in the unseen through the eye of faith.

It’s about working together to seek understanding, even if that process doesn’t lead to a single, definitive answer.
 
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St. SteVen

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RE what is truth?

Ironically, Pilate answers his own question when he declares, “Here is the man!” (John 19:5). Jesus is the truth (John 14:6), and God's Word is truth (John 17:17). In Scripture, “truth” is often synonymous with the Covenants of Promise, God's faithful commitment to His people.

Because God cannot lie this becomes absolute truth!

Truth is like the pearl of great price — the ultimate object of human understanding! What are we willing to do to find it?
Have you answered your own question?

Jesus = truth
Is that all there is?

Is there any consensus about WHAT that truth actually is?

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