The Wrath of God - How is it love?

[Jack]

hmmm, as I thought. You ask things you don't want to know and don't ask about that which you aught to know.

You've already admitted you reject the Bible! So all you have to offer are YOUR opinions.

 

[quietthinker]

Have you noticed how many words the Bible contains….not for people who have the concentration span of a goldfish. There is much to be said….if you have a problem with the length of my responses….the solution is really simple….no one is standing over you with a big stick….

You just don't get why I've asked this particularly in its context or you don't want to know.

 

[bdavidc]

I agree. The punishment, which is death, is forever. Therefore no resurrection from the second death. Note well. The scripture does not say never ending punishing, as in continuing action. It is punishment. And death, after a time (few or many stripes) of real suffering, comes in the form of eventual destruction.
But more importantly, those of you who genuinely believe that God is one that would find satisfaction in inflicting pain and agony and suffering upon anyone, for any reason, without mercy and without end, do not know God well enough. Your perspective as to Who He is and what He is like is frankly a perspective that Satan would be delighted that you cleave to.

Jesus did not teach that. In Matthew 25:46 he plainly states: “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.” The same word aiōnios is used for both “punishment” and “life.” If the punishment is something one experiences with Christ, then by the same word it is everlasting. You cannot switch the word to something temporary just because you want to fit it with a time of destruction. The text does not allow that. Revelation 14: 11 speaks of the punishment of the lost, saying “the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever, and they have no rest day nor night.” That is not destruction with an end. That is an unceasing, ongoing reality.

Scripture never once describes the second death as temporary torment followed by nothingness. Revelation 20: 10 says the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be “tormented day and night for ever and ever.” A few verses later, in Revelation 20:15, everyone whose name is not written in the Book of Life is cast into the same lake of fire. To say they are merely extinguished is to ignore the plain context. God is not mocked, and His Word is not fuzzy. The punishment is just as real and enduring as the reward.

Finally, you have the emotional objection that an eternal punishment would make God unmerciful, but that is not in the Bible. God has been merciful. He sent His Son to take our place and take the wrath that we deserved (Romans 5:8). If a person refuses that mercy, he or she is free to reap the justice that they deserve. Hebrews 10: 29–31 reminds us that anyone who treats the blood of Christ as a joke will be under “sorer punishment” and the chapter ends with, “It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” To cry out that God is cruel when He simply executes perfect justice is to slander His nature. This is not a God who is giddy with the pain of His creatures. The problem is that sinners despise the only escape He provides. God is just and He cannot say one thing and be the opposite. If anyone chooses to continue in rebellion, he will know God’s righteous anger to the full.

Note:
Because the flesh hates the unpalatable truths of Scripture. Many who profess Christ still trip over the offense of God’s justice. Paul foretold that very thing in 2 Timothy 4: 3–4, “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears, and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”

People attempt to make it more comfortable. They manufacture a “God” who only destroys but does not judge eternally, or who loves without wrath, or whatever. Because that version of God feels better to believe in. The problem is not in God’s Word, it is unbelief. They do not tremble at God’s Word, but mold it to make it more comfortable to their emotions. Jesus made it clear in John 12: 48, “He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”

So when a professing Christian starts altering what the Bible actually says, it exposes their unbelief and shows that they are “trusting in their own understanding” (Proverbs 3: 5) instead of humbling themselves to God’s Word. They want a gospel that is less offensive, less fearful, more comfortable to human wisdom. But the truth is not ours to edit. God’s Word stands as it is, whether men receive it or not.
If someone denies what Scripture clearly teaches about eternal punishment, that raises serious questions about whether they truly know Christ. Being born again means submitting to God’s Word, not rewriting it to fit our preferences.

 

[Jack]

"Death" NEVER means 'cease to exist' in the Bible. NEVER!

Rev 20 "They will be TORMENTED day and night FOREVER"!

 

[pandaflower]

I agree, but it’s not that God created evil for the sake of it……he created balance in all of his creation…equal opposites exist in all areas of our life, many of which we just take for granted….the only equal opposites he wanted to keep in his own jurisdiction were “the knowledge of good and evil”……and for a very good reason.

Should the opposite of God’s goodness ever be unleashed on humanity…..it would be a disaster! And that is exactly what happened…..this knowledge was chosen by our first parents, not forced on them...it is forced on us though as we navigate our way in a world that was handed over to God’s enemy. (Luke 4:5-7)
Amid all the chaos, God would shine a light to show us the way out.….

We are the innocent victims here, and a rescue mission is already under way, but in God’s time, not ours.

Why do we need rescue? From the beginning.

Think beyond the impulse to blame Adam and Eve.

 

[Jack]

Why do we need rescue? From the beginning.

Think beyond the impulse to blame Adam and Eve.

You're debating the JW Governing Body. That's all JW's know about the Bible.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You just don't get why I've asked this particularly in its context or you don't want to know.

Here we go with the mind games again....mate, if you cannot speak clearly and make yourself understood, that is hadrdly the fault of the one you are responding to....

Most people on here will have no idea what you mean unless you make it clear.....we are not mind readers....what is obvious to you is not necessarily obvious to those you speak to....do you want to know?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

We have often heard about these two aspects of God's character, His love and His wrath.

The concept is acceptable to many, citing biblical sources to confirm.
But to others it is troubling, noting that the character of God does not allow for such a contradiction.

Since God is love, His wrath also needs to be a manifestation of love.
But that's not the description given by many. They describe an anger driven rage, which is obviously not love.

How do we resolve this contradiction?

The Wrath of God - How is it love?

Considering your observation…it is contradictory, yea? Especially how we (mankind) define vengeance. Another contradiction I thought of a while ago was where God repented that He made man on the earth because man is evil. Genesis 6:5-7 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. [6] And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. [7] And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repented me that I have made them.

what? I guess that clarifies Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Which “repented” in 2 Corinthians do we think fits with it repented the LORD ‘the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.’ ?


2 Corinthians 7:8-11 For though I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it—for I see that that letter caused you sorrow, though only for (a season) a while— [9] I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to the point of repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to the will of God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us. [10] For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.

You may ask what does this have to do with the wrath of God? Or the vengeance of God? James 1:20 for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God.

Love … what Godly Sorrow produces: [11] For behold what earnestness this very thing, this godly sorrow, has produced in you: what vindication of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what longing, what zeal, what punishment of wrong! In everything you demonstrated yourselves to be innocent in the matter.

When considering the Wrath of God, His Vengeance …what punishment of wrong!! Has God demonstrated…to be innocent in the matter?

 

[quietthinker]

Here we go with the mind games again....mate, if you cannot speak clearly and make yourself understood, that is hadrdly the fault of the one you are responding to....

Most people on here will have no idea what you mean unless you make it clear.....we are not mind readers....what is obvious to you is not necessarily obvious to those you speak to....do you want to know?

Isn't it strange how you can't understand me in the present day but give plenty of commentary on what was written thousands of years ago ....which you think you understand.

 

[St. SteVen]

Considering your observation…it is contradictory, yea? Especially how we (mankind) define vengeance.

Vengeance is vengeance. It doesn't mean one thing for humankind and something else for God.

[

 

[Aunty Jane]

Isn't it strange how you can't understand me in the present day but give plenty of commentary on what was written thousands of years ago ....which you think you understand.

I give up.....

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Vengeance is vengeance. It doesn't mean one thing for humankind and something else for God.

[

An eye for an eye..then?

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Vengeance is vengeance. It doesn't mean one thing for humankind and something else for God.

An eye for an eye..then?

No.
If revenge is a sin for us, it's not okay for God either.
Unless He operates at a lower standard than He holds us to.

Is Revenge a Sin?

Most readers would answer in the affirmative. Yes, revenge is a sin... for us, but not for God. For us, but not for God? Why? Does God operate at a lower standard than he holds us to? Many would bristle at that question. Why? We are required to love our enemies. Jesus taught this as godly...

www.christianityboard.com

[

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Vengeance is vengeance. It doesn't mean one thing for humankind and something else for God.

[

Then why do we need to learn new thoughts and new ways? “Be not conformed to the word, but be you transformed by the renewing of the mind.” look up revenge, or wrath, or vengeance …not in the Bible. But the definition widely known as what wrath, revenge, vengeance is. Is it the same as God’s definition? “My ways are higher than your ways, and My thoughts are Higher than your own thoughts”

You seem to be saying a renewed mind should have the same definition of vengeance as GOD? i was talking about the worlds definition of vengeance, or wrath, or revenge.
that is what I see as the reason for your thread…even Wrath you are asking how does it exists with God who is love…if you don’t think men give there own interpretation of wrath and then say their idea of wrath, is the same as God’s wrath….I don’t know what else to say except even Jesus said mankind thinks differently(without His renewing our thoughts). You have heard it said to love those who love you and hate your enemies. But I say unto you “love your enemies.”

St. SteVen said:
Vengeance is vengeance. It doesn't mean one thing for humankind and something else for God.

No.
If revenge is a sin for us, it's not okay for God either.
Unless He operates at a lower standard than He holds us to.

Is Revenge a Sin?

Most readers would answer in the affirmative. Yes, revenge is a sin... for us, but not for God. For us, but not for God? Why? Does God operate at a lower standard than he holds us to? Many would bristle at that question. Why? We are required to love our enemies. Jesus taught this as godly...

www.christianityboard.com

[

 

[Brakelite]

Jesus did not teach that. In Matthew 25:46 he plainly states: “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.” The same word aiōnios is used for both “punishment” and “life.” If the punishment is something one experiences with Christ, then by the same word it is everlasting. You cannot switch the word to something temporary just because you want to fit it with a time of destruction. The text does not allow that. Revelation 14: 11 speaks of the punishment of the lost, saying “the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever, and they have no rest day nor night.” That is not destruction with an end. That is an unceasing, ongoing reality.

Scripture never once describes the second death as temporary torment followed by nothingness. Revelation 20: 10 says the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be “tormented day and night for ever and ever.” A few verses later, in Revelation 20:15, everyone whose name is not written in the Book of Life is cast into the same lake of fire. To say they are merely extinguished is to ignore the plain context. God is not mocked, and His Word is not fuzzy. The punishment is just as real and enduring as the reward.

Finally, you have the emotional objection that an eternal punishment would make God unmerciful, but that is not in the Bible. God has been merciful. He sent His Son to take our place and take the wrath that we deserved (Romans 5:8). If a person refuses that mercy, he or she is free to reap the justice that they deserve. Hebrews 10: 29–31 reminds us that anyone who treats the blood of Christ as a joke will be under “sorer punishment” and the chapter ends with, “It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” To cry out that God is cruel when He simply executes perfect justice is to slander His nature. This is not a God who is giddy with the pain of His creatures. The problem is that sinners despise the only escape He provides. God is just and He cannot say one thing and be the opposite. If anyone chooses to continue in rebellion, he will know God’s righteous anger to the full.

Note:
Because the flesh hates the unpalatable truths of Scripture. Many who profess Christ still trip over the offense of God’s justice. Paul foretold that very thing in 2 Timothy 4: 3–4, “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears, and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”

People attempt to make it more comfortable. They manufacture a “God” who only destroys but does not judge eternally, or who loves without wrath, or whatever. Because that version of God feels better to believe in. The problem is not in God’s Word, it is unbelief. They do not tremble at God’s Word, but mold it to make it more comfortable to their emotions. Jesus made it clear in John 12: 48, “He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”

So when a professing Christian starts altering what the Bible actually says, it exposes their unbelief and shows that they are “trusting in their own understanding” (Proverbs 3: 5) instead of humbling themselves to God’s Word. They want a gospel that is less offensive, less fearful, more comfortable to human wisdom. But the truth is not ours to edit. God’s Word stands as it is, whether men receive it or not.
If someone denies what Scripture clearly teaches about eternal punishment, that raises serious questions about whether they truly know Christ. Being born again means submitting to God’s Word, not rewriting it to fit our preferences.

Of course death is everlasting, unless there's a resurrection. Death is also a punishment. It's final. It isn't ongoing. It is not punishing. It is punishment.

You say I do not believe in scripture. You say that destruction is not in scripture. I beg to differ.

DESTRUCTION
KJV Psalms 145:20
20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.
KJV Psalms 101:8
8 I will early destroy all the wicked of the land; that I may cut off all wicked doers from the city of the LORD.
KJV Psalms 37:38
38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.
KJV Psalms 92:7
7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:
KJV Proverbs 13:13
13 Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed: but he that feareth the commandment shall be rewarded.
KJV Proverbs 10:29
29 The way of the LORD is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.
KJV Philippians 3:19
19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
KJV 1 Timothy 6:9
9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
KJV 2 Thessalonians 1:9
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
KJV Matthew 7:13
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
PERISH
KJV Psalms 37:20
20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
KJV Proverbs 19:9
9 A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish.
KJV Luke 13:3
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
KJV John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
KJV 2 Thessalonians 2:10
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
KJV 2 Peter 2:12
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
BURNT UP
KJV Matthew 3:12
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
KJV Matthew 13:30
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
KJV Hebrews 6:8
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
KJV Malachi 4:1-3
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
CONSUMED
KJV Isaiah 1:28
28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.
KJV Psalms 37:20
20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
KJV Psalms 104:35
35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.
DEVOURED
KJV Psalms 21:9
9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.
KJV Hebrews 10:27
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
KJV Revelation 20:9
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
CUT OFF FROM THE EARTH
KJV Psalms 37:2, 9, 22, 28, 34, 38
2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.
9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.
28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
34 Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.
38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.
KJV Proverbs 2:22
22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.
PERDITION... UTTER RUIN
KJV Hebrews 10:39
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
KJV 2 Peter 3:7
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
CEASE TO EXIST
KJV Psalms 37:10
10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
•

 

[quietthinker]

I give up.....

No need to give up, just be reasonable and acknowledge the truth of the matter when its in your face.

 

[St. SteVen]

Then why do we need to learn new thoughts and new ways? “Be not conformed to the word, but be you transformed by the renewing of the mind.” look up revenge, or wrath, or vengeance …not in the Bible. But the definition widely known as what wrath, revenge, vengeance is. Is it the same as God’s definition? “My ways are higher than your ways, and My thoughts are Higher than your own thoughts”

If the Bible isn't using common definitions, then I would say that the translators got it wrong.
How is the common person supposed to understand the Bible if the definitions are a shell game?
New Christians don't automatically have skills in lexical definitions.

[

 

[quietthinker]

If the Bible isn't using common definitions, then I would say that the translators got it wrong.
How is the common person supposed to understand the Bible if the definitions are a shell game?
New Christians don't automatically have skills in lexical definitions.

[

Translating from ancient texts is tricky because the vocabulary in Hebrew has considerably less words to utilise than English. Also a translator translates through their bias.....as do we.
Sooo, if and when a paradigm is unknowingly faulty, complex texts or texts which are not clear because of limited vocabulary is translated through the bias. In the sixty or seventy available English translations, this is evident.
Hebrew had around 7500 words with no vowels. English has about a million when you take technical terms into consideration.

 

[St. SteVen]

Translating from ancient texts is tricky because the vocabulary in Hebrew has considerably less words to utilise than English. Also a translator translates through their bias.....as do we.

Yes.
And clarity is further confused by the definitions shell game.
Why do we need a secret decoder ring to understand the Bible?
This is Freakin' nuts. (no wonder I don't trust the Bible)

[

 

[quietthinker]

Yes.
And clarity is further computerized by the definitions shell game.
Why do we need a secret decoder ring to understand the Bible.
This is Freakin' nuts. (no wonder I don't trust the Bible)

[

Understanding the scriptures is as much the leading of God's Spirit as it is reading the words.
Because Israel through history had certain ideas about God they inevitably wrote from their cultural paradigm.
Jesus shifted that paradigm. When he made statements like 'you have heard it said blah blah blah, but I say unto you blah blah blah' he opened a new way of seeing/ understanding God.
If in pursuit of particularly favourite points of view we quote the Prophets/OT without taking Jesus' position into consideration, we do violence to the intent of the scripture and end up with a distortion.