Does Daniel 7:21–22 Support Amillennialism or Premillennialism?

[Davy]

God's tabernacle is "New Jerusalem" Revelation 21:22 is stating nothing more than no temple is found within God's tabernacle thats New Jerusalem, it's that simple and your trying desperately to build a false doctrine in support of your false millennial kingdom on this earth that doesn't exist in scripture

That's an attempt to 'change'... what that Rev.21:22 Scripture declares.

If the events of Ezekiel 47 and Revelation 21 are the same events of the NHNE, then why would John say he saw no temple there in Rev.21:22, but Ezekiel 47:12 shows there is a temple there?? (actually says "sanctuary", same as a temple).

 

[Truth7t7]

That's an attempt to 'change'... what that Rev.21:22 Scripture declares.

If the events of Ezekiel 47 and Revelation 21 are the same events of the NHNE, then why would John say he saw no temple there in Rev.21:22, but Ezekiel 47:12 shows there is a temple there?? (actually says "sanctuary", same as a temple).

More like your attempt at trying to change the interpretation of scripture to suit your need, in desperately trying to create a false millennial kingdom on this earth that doesn't exist in scripture

You were clearly shown in Ezekiel 47:1 that the river of life comes out from the Lord's "House" and it also uses "Sanctuary" in 47:12 where the river of life flows from

Once again Revelation 21:22 states nothing more than no temple is seen inside "New Jerusalem" that's God's "House" "Sanctuary" or " Tabernacle" all the very same place called "New Jerusalem" in Revelation 21:2-3

Your claim that Ezekiel 47:1-12 and Revelation 21:1-5 & Revelation 22:1-3 is two different places is 100% "Wrong" your claim of a future millennial kingdom on this earth doesn't exist in scripture its a man made fairy tale

House, Sanctuary, Tabernacle, New Jerusalem, all are the very same place in the New Heaven And Earth

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[grafted branch]

You missed my point. Believers would be overcome physically, not spiritually.

Are you saying none of the martyred, were part of the church, as believers?

The gates of hell overcome many believers physically. They are called martyrs.

This is not a true or false interpretation, interpretation. What does half true half false even mean? The verse is talking about spiritual matters. Half and half has nothing to do with it, other than your attempt at an interpretation point. How people interpret Scripture could be split 100 different ways.

Ok, so when we see the word “overcome” we can know that it doesn’t mean to get the victory in every sense, it means both, getting the victory in one sense while being defeated in another sense. Spiritually we get the victory but physically we are defeated.

1 Corinthians 6:9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Following your view we can physically do and be overcome by everything on the 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 list as long as we only spiritually overcome those things. Do you see the problem with interpreting the scriptures that way?

 

[Timtofly]

So, do you believe that animal sacrifices and offerings to make reconciliation or atonement of sins will be performed during the supposed future thousand years which would contradict the entire New Testament?

Will it be that way in the New Heavens and Earth? The argument was between this creation after the Second Coming, or the next creation, after the Millennial Kingdom.

You seem to think this River of Life on earth already happened symbolically, and prior to the birth of Christ, with this red herring argument about sacrifices. If God wants sacrifices, why would you argue with God over the matter?

Sacrifices in the OT were only symbolic any way, no? They did not remove sin, only provided a means to obey God. If there is no sin in the Millennial Kingdom, which I have argued there will not be, your NT removal of a sin offering still stands. They will only be to honor God, as a yearly commitment. Not that they remove sin, as they have never done that to begin with.

 

[Zao is life]

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

It's not as simple as what you are making it out to be.

In order to ensure that the passage can comply with the spin you give on it, you seem to almost intentionally leave out the fact that Paul was not only speaking of this age in the above passage, but also of the age to come:

"Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." (Matthew 12:32).

"Then Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, there is no one who has left home or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of God's kingdom who will not receive many times more in this age - and in the age to come, eternal life." (Luke 18:29-30).

"Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth: In the age when all things are renewed, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Matthew 19:28).

""This power he exercised in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this [the] age [G165 aion: age], but also in that which is to come:" (Ephesians 1:21).

You talk only of this age, pretending that Daniel, Jesus, and Paul were all likewise speaking only of this age, but not of the age to come:

The Son of man coming to the Ancient of Days corresponds with Jesus ascending to heaven and being placed at the right hand of God the Father. The Son of man being given "dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations and languages, should serve him" and His dominion being everlasting corresponds with Him being placed at God the Father's right hand "far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come" with "all things under his feet" while being made "the head over all things to the church".

Since your doctrine contradicts the clear, straightforward passages that I reference in this post (by your omission of the clear fact that together they are not only talking of this age, but also of the age to come), you need to reconsider your doctrine.

Do you understand that Daniel's visions were recorded in Daniel 7:2-14 and then the angel explained the meaning of them in Daniel 7:17-27? So, how do you interpret Daniel 7:13-14 and where do you think it is explained within Daniel 7:17-27?

As for dancing around passages, that is what Premills do regarding MANY passages of scripture, including the ones I referenced in this thread in the second post: Unlike Amillennialism, Premillennialism is based on assumptions and speculation rather than on any clear, straightforward scriptures

Which age were Daniel, Jesus and Paul talking about? Only this age?

For sure, you dance around the scriptures by omitting facts.

 

[claninja]

Let’s look at two key passages:





Here’s what I want to draw attention to:

A Rare and Powerful Connection

The exact phrase "and judgment was given" appears only twice in the entire Bible (KJV):

Daniel 7:22 – "and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High"

Revelation 20:4 – "and judgment was given unto them"

That’s not a coincidence.

Both passages:

Use the same rare phrase

Refer to the saints

Refer to judgment/vindication

Result in the saints reigning or possessing the kingdom

It is perfectly reasonable to conclude that Revelation 20:4 is picking up exactly where Daniel 7:22 leaves off.

And let’s be honest: no one — not even Amils — is going to argue that the “them” in Revelation 20:4 refers to the beast or the wicked. It's clearly the saints.

Continued....

In Daniel 7: 9-10, the vision displays a traditional courtroom scene - thrones are placed, then Ancient of Days takes his seat first, then the court is seated, and then books are opened for judgement. So when reading Daniel 7:21-27. It seems the ancient of days comes, then grants the authority to judge to the saints, and then the court sits in judgement.

In revelation, it’s a MUCH different order, not following the traditional courtroom scene and not parallel to Daniel 7 - the thrones with those seated, are first , then judgement is given to them, then after 1000 years the ancient of days is seen as seated, and then books are open for judgment.


Due to the significant non parallelism, this would lead me to view amil as better fit for revelation 20 IF you are arguing these are about the same event as Daniel 7.

That being said:

One of my favorite movies is Interstellar, and it has a great visual for explaining complex ideas. In the movie, a character illustrates a wormhole by drawing two dots on opposite ends of a piece of paper, folding the paper so the dots touch, and poking a pencil through it. This shows how two distant points in space can be “connected” without traveling the space in between.

I think about Revelation 20 in a similar way. Imagine Revelation 20 as the paper:

• Dot 1: The thrones and those seated on them are given authority.
• Space between the dots: The 1,000-year period.
• Dot 2: The Ancient of Days sits on His throne and opens the books to judge.

Now, if you “fold the paper” so the dots touch, you get Daniel 7. Suddenly, the thrones are placed, the Ancient of Days is seated, judgement is given to the saints, the court is seated, and the books are opened—all in one scene. Everything between the dots—the thousand years—is represented symbolically, but the key events are connected.

 

[grafted branch]

One of my favorite movies is Interstellar, and it has a great visual for explaining complex ideas. In the movie, a character illustrates a wormhole by drawing two dots on opposite ends of a piece of paper, folding the paper so the dots touch, and poking a pencil through it. This shows how two distant points in space can be “connected” without traveling the space in between.

I think about Revelation 20 in a similar way. Imagine Revelation 20 as the paper:

• Dot 1: The thrones and those seated on them are given authority.
• Space between the dots: The 1,000-year period.
• Dot 2: The Ancient of Days sits on His throne and opens the books to judge.

Now, if you “fold the paper” so the dots touch, you get Daniel 7. Suddenly, the thrones are placed, the Ancient of Days is seated, judgement is given to the saints, the court is seated, and the books are opened—all in one scene. Everything between the dots—the thousand years—is represented symbolically,

Great analogy. I thought about this and asked AI what happens when time is shortened in the spacetime continuum.



When time is shortened in the spacetime continuum, it typically refers to the phenomenon of time dilation, where time appears to pass at different rates for observers in different states of motion or gravitational fields. This means that a moving clock will tick slower compared to a stationary clock, leading to differences in the measurement of time between observers.



If I remember correctly in the movie Interstellar, when some of the crew members land on a planet, they ran into trouble and had to stay longer than anticipated. Due to time dilation, by the time they got back to their spaceship 23 years had passed and the person that remained on the spaceship had aged greatly while those returning from the planet were only about an hour older.

Ok, keeping these things in mind, in Matthew 24:22 the days are shortened for the sake of the elect. If this is hinting at time dilation then from John’s perspective in Revelation 20 a thousand years have passed while only a short time has passed otherwise. In Revelation 20:5 it says “this is the first resurrection”. The thousand years could simply be pointing to the events that occur at the cross.

Looking at your folded paper and dot 1 being connected to dot 2, John observes this from starting with dot 1, going around the bulge of the paper fold and ending up at dot 2. A thousand years of time dilation versus taking the direct path where the two dots actually touch each other.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Daniel 7:14 & Revelation 11:15 are the same event of the second coming and eternal kingdom in parallel teachings

Daniel 7:14KJV
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Revelation 11:15KJV
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

You didn't address my point, as usual. Daniel 7:14 talks about dominion being given to Jesus, which undeniably occurred upon His resurrection and ascension to the right hand of God the Father, but you are trying to equate it to when He delivers the kingdom to the Father. Being given dominion and delivering the kingdom to the Father are two completely different events.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Didn't Lord Jesus Christ end those blood ordinances of animal sacrifice on His cross for one and all time, per Hebrews 9:26 and Hebrews 10:12?

Yes, He did.

If so (and He did), then for the New Covenant saints, how are we supposed to interpret that mention of animal sacrifices in those latter Ezekiel Chapters, since Ezekiel 40 through 47 are all about the time AFTER Christ's future 2nd coming?

That's debatable, but to make that passage part of the foundation of your doctrine is just silly. We should use more clear, straightforward scriptures to form the foundation of our doctrine. In my view, that prophecy was conditional and the conditions weren't met.

Ezekiel 43:9 Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever. 10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern. 11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.

The fulfillment of the prophecy was conditional upon the Israelite people of that time being repentant and submitting to God instead of "their whoredom" and such, but they did not do it.

Did you not know that the idea of 'sacrifices' to The Father and The Son STILL EXISTS today for the Christian?

Rom 12:1
12 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
KJV

Phil 4:18
18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.
KJV

Heb 13:15
15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to His name.
KJV

Of course, but nowhere in scripture does it figuratively represent our sacrifices as animal sacrifices and sin offerings like we see described in Ezekiel 40-48.

Since those Ezekiel 40 through 47 Chapters show events that have NEVER HAPPENED TO THIS DAY, and reveals many future prophetic events that only happen AFTER Christ's future return, but by mention of sacrifice that gives one the EXCUSE to just SCRAP all those Ezekiel Scriptures?? That is faulty thinking, and is where you show your mind is, in a state of fleshy carnal thinking. And with Ezekiel 47 revealing the River and Tree of Life of Revelation 21, even more so Ezekiel 47 is revealing the time after Christ's "thousand years" reign of Revelation 20.

It's faulty thinking to just ignore that it specifically refers to animal sacrifices and sin offerings within that passage. YOU have the carnal mind that ignores what the text says and tries to change it. Those chapters have nothing to do with an imaginary earthly millennial kingdom, that's for sure.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Kingdom seen below is in the New Heaven and Earth, do "All People", nations, and languages presently serve Jesus Christ?

"100% Absolutely Not"

Your claim that Daniel 7:14 was fulfilled at the cross of Calvary and the resurrection is a man made fairy tale, the present world in the vast majority hate Jesus Christ and they don't serve him

The scripture below will be fulfilled in the "Future" eternal New Heaven and Earth

Jesus Is The Lord

Daniel 7:14KJV
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

You are taking that too literally. It's talking about Him having authority over all people, which is exactly what He has right now. Paul said that He is at the right hand of the Father ". Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come". You are acting like a Premil who doesn't understand who Jesus is right NOW. He is King of kings and Lord of lords NOW and rules over all people and all things NOW. It has nothing to do with literally every person serving Him. That's like saying that when Joel 2:28-32 talks about God pouring out His Spirit on all people that it's talking about literally all people. No, it's only talking about all believers. Obviously, He doesn't pour out His Spirit on unbelievers. Similarly, it's all people from all nations who believe in Christ that serve Him.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Will it be that way in the New Heavens and Earth? The argument was between this creation after the Second Coming, or the next creation, after the Millennial Kingdom.

You seem to think this River of Life on earth already happened symbolically, and prior to the birth of Christ, with this red herring argument about sacrifices. If God wants sacrifices, why would you argue with God over the matter?

God would not do anything to contradict His word. Reinstating animal sacrifices would contradict what is written in Hebrews 8-10 and other scriptures.

Sacrifices in the OT were only symbolic any way, no? They did not remove sin, only provided a means to obey God. If there is no sin in the Millennial Kingdom, which I have argued there will not be, your NT removal of a sin offering still stands. They will only be to honor God, as a yearly commitment. Not that they remove sin, as they have never done that to begin with.

Where does any of the text in question in Ezekiel say anything about sacrifices and sin offerings being performed "to honor God, as a yearly commitment"? Nowhere. They specifically are said to be for reconciliation or atonement for sins in Ezekiel 45:15-17. That can't possibly occur in the future or it would contradict the fact that Jesus made the old covenant animal sacrifices and offerings obsolete with His once for all sacrifice.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's not as simple as what you are making it out to be.

It is, but nothing is ever simple for you. You make almost everything more complicated than it is.

In order to ensure that the passage can comply with the spin you give on it, you seem to almost intentionally leave out the fact that Paul was not only speaking of this age in the above passage, but also of the age to come:

"Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." (Matthew 12:32).

"Then Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, there is no one who has left home or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of God's kingdom who will not receive many times more in this age - and in the age to come, eternal life." (Luke 18:29-30).

"Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth: In the age when all things are renewed, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Matthew 19:28).

""This power he exercised in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this [the] age [G165 aion: age], but also in that which is to come:" (Ephesians 1:21).

You talk only of this age, pretending that Daniel, Jesus, and Paul were all likewise speaking only of this age, but not of the age to come:

I don't talk only of this age. Both Daniel 7:14 and Ephesians 1:19-22 talk about Jesus ruling in this age since His ascension to the Father and then continuing to reign forever. I didn't say otherwise. According to Jesus, the age to come is eternal because He contrasted it with this age when people get married and they die (Luke 20:34-36).

Since your doctrine contradicts the clear, straightforward passages that I reference in this post (by your omission of the clear fact that together they are not only talking of this age, but also of the age to come), you need to reconsider your doctrine.

I never said it only refers to this age, so you are once again arguing with a strawman, as you have done so many times before.

Which age were Daniel, Jesus and Paul talking about? Only this age?

No. The eternal age to come as well. I never said otherwise. I feel sorry for you that you waste so much time making strawman arguments. You make far more strawman arguments than you do arguments that actually address what people believe.

For sure, you dance around the scriptures by omitting facts.

For sure you make things up and have no idea of what you're talking about.

 

[Davidpt]

In Daniel 7: 9-10, the vision displays a traditional courtroom scene - thrones are placed, then Ancient of Days takes his seat first, then the court is seated, and then books are opened for judgement. So when reading Daniel 7:21-27. It seems the ancient of days comes, then grants the authority to judge to the saints, and then the court sits in judgement.

In revelation, it’s a MUCH different order, not following the traditional courtroom scene and not parallel to Daniel 7 - the thrones with those seated, are first , then judgement is given to them, then after 1000 years the ancient of days is seen as seated, and then books are open for judgment.


Due to the significant non parallelism, this would lead me to view amil as better fit for revelation 20 IF you are arguing these are about the same event as Daniel 7.

That being said:

One of my favorite movies is Interstellar, and it has a great visual for explaining complex ideas. In the movie, a character illustrates a wormhole by drawing two dots on opposite ends of a piece of paper, folding the paper so the dots touch, and poking a pencil through it. This shows how two distant points in space can be “connected” without traveling the space in between.

I think about Revelation 20 in a similar way. Imagine Revelation 20 as the paper:

• Dot 1: The thrones and those seated on them are given authority.
• Space between the dots: The 1,000-year period.
• Dot 2: The Ancient of Days sits on His throne and opens the books to judge.

Now, if you “fold the paper” so the dots touch, you get Daniel 7. Suddenly, the thrones are placed, the Ancient of Days is seated, judgement is given to the saints, the court is seated, and the books are opened—all in one scene. Everything between the dots—the thousand years—is represented symbolically, but the key events are connected.

Great analogy, but even so...where are you seeing in Revelation 20:11-15 it equalling this in Daniel 7:22---and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom?

Therefore, unless you have a better solution, this seems to mean in Daniel 7, what follows this---and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom--is this--And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him--not Revelation 20:11-15 instead.

IOW, IMO, Daniel 7:27 fits with the era of time Revelation 20:4 is involving. Obviously, or at least to me anyway, Daniel 7:27 can't come to pass until verses 9-12 are fulfilled first. And that verses 9-12 are parallel with verse 22. And that verse 22 is not parallel with Revelation 20:11-15, but is parallel with Revelation 19:20 and Revelation 20:4, to name a few. All these things IMO, of course.

 

[Davidpt]

You are taking that too literally. It's talking about Him having authority over all people, which is exactly what He has right now. Paul said that He is at the right hand of the Father ". Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come". You are acting like a Premil who doesn't understand who Jesus is right NOW. He is King of kings and Lord of lords NOW and rules over all people and all things NOW. It has nothing to do with literally every person serving Him. That's like saying that when Joel 2:28-32 talks about God pouring out His Spirit on all people that it's talking about literally all people. No, it's only talking about all believers. Obviously, He doesn't pour out His Spirit on unbelievers. Similarly, it's all people from all nations who believe in Christ that serve Him.

In Daniel 7 verse 27 is not fulfilled until verse 21 and 22 are fulfilled first. Obviously, verse 21 has not been fulfilled in it's entirety since verse 22 hasn't been fulfilled yet. Verse 27 says all dominions shall serve and obey Him. Not even remotely matching reality if we apply that to the here and now. Apparently, you must only want all dominions to be meaning the saved rather than the saved and unsaved? After all, if applying verse 27 to the here and now, in what way are the unsaved also serving and obeying Him?

They are not, that's the point. Therefore, if applicable to the here and now, the unsaved can't be part of all dominions that shall serve and obey Him. That would be the logic.

Therefore, IMO, which might not agree with your opinion, verse 27 is not applicable to the here and now since all dominions have to be meaning the saved and unsaved. IOW, only Premil makes sense of verse 27, as in, He shall rule them with a rod of iron during the future millennium.

 

[Truth7t7]

You are taking that too literally. It's talking about Him having authority over all people

Your Claim Is "False" its showing the eternal kingdom where "All People" will serve the Lord, your opinion is silenced in God's words of truth below "All People" means exactly that and your not changing God's words below

The Kingdom seen below is in the New Heaven and Earth, do "All People", nations, and languages presently serve Jesus Christ?

"100% Absolutely Not"

Your claim that Daniel 7:14 was fulfilled at the cross of Calvary and the resurrection is a man made fairy tale, the present world in the vast majority hate Jesus Christ and they don't serve him

The scripture below will be fulfilled in the "Future" eternal New Heaven and Earth

Jesus Is The Lord

Daniel 7:14KJV
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

 

[CTK]

For what it is worth:

In chapter 2, Daniel records a "Dream Sequence" and a "Interpretation Sequence." The Dream Sequence verses ( 2:31-36) provide us with the big picture - essentially, they describe the formal structure where God will reveal His plan of restoration, not only for the Jews and Jerusalem, but also for all of mankind. The verses identified as "Interpretations Sequence" verses, which are found in 2:37-45 represent the "details" or those events or results that will be found WITHIN the "Dream Sequence" verses. Thus, they are not verses we should consider as being- given to us in a chronological manner. This method or presentation will also be found in chapters 7,8 9 and 11. So, it would be absolutely impossible for anyone to interpret these chapters assuming the latter verses (interpretation sequence verses) come chronologically right after the dream sequence verses.

In chapter 2, verses 31-36 gives us the "big picture" or the Dream Sequence. It tells us there will be 4 and only 4 kingdoms that come out of the sea and there are only 2 events given to us. Verse 2:34 represents the Stone striking the feet and symbolically breaking apart the iron and the clay elements WITHIN THE FEET ONLY. This represents the first coming of the Messiah when He would set up His earthly kingdom. Then, we have verse 2:35 which comes some 2000 years later and represents His return where He will destroy all of man's kinggdoms. EVERYONE interprets 2:34 and 2:35 to be the exact same event -both taking place at the end of time. But these Dream Sequence verses establishes His plan of salvation - where all the interpretations from 7 to 12 will fall within. Verses 2:37 -45 capture all of the "detail" or Interpretation Sequence verses.

After God briefly describes the first 4 kingdoms in 2:37-40), He immediately provides a significant level of details that take place in the 4th kingdom (Rome) but AFTER THE CROSS. Verses 2:41-45 speak to what takes place within the 4th kingdom revealing the how His church will be established and how it would be corrupted (the clay represented His people that were separated from Rome (iron) when He symbolically struck the feet (cross). After the cross, there would be two different types of clay - pottery clay that represented those Jews who would accept Him as their Messiah and go out to preach the Good News throughout the empire, and those designated as "ceramic or miry" clay. These represented those Jews who rejected Him and would continue in their pre-cross Jewish faith.

But as the pottery clay went out into the world preaching to the Gentiles, the sheer volume of Gentiles would come to dominate this growing and substantial Christian church. And it would not be too long until the Jews themselves (pottery clay) were marginalized and removed from this powerful almost Gentile dominated Christian church.

Now this is the pattern that God will use in chapters 7 -12. He would always provide the big picture first (Dream Sequence) and then follow it with His "detailed verses" (Interpretation Sequence) which ALWAYS fits WITHIN those earlier Dream Sequence verses (again, not chronological).

But this gets even further complicated in chapter 7. In this most important chapter and the sister chapter of chapter 2, God goes a step further: He gives us not one Dream and Interpretation set of verses but two - one earthly and one heavenly. Again, they are not to be viewed as taking place in a chronological manner.

Verses 7:1-8 speak of the Dreams Sequence of verses in an earthly scene. Then, He shows us what takes place in a heavenly scene in verses 7:9-10 (but this is a scene BEFORE the cross - BEFORE THE MESSIAH COMPLETES HIS 3.5 YEAR MINISTRY.

Verse 7:11-12 speak once again of an earthly scene where the little horn rises to the top of the beast and comes to full power (AFTER THE CROSS).

Verses 7:13-14 once again returns to the heavenly realm scene. This is AFTER THE CROSS AND WHEN JESUS IS PRESENTED TO HIS FATHER AND HE HAD FULFILLED HIS GOD GIVEN MISSION ON EARTH. He is now given dominion by the Father.

The rest of the verses in chapter 7 are ALL Interpretation Sequence verses providing the details of the events that will take place within verses 7:1-14. All are earthy scene detail verses except for verses 7:26-27 which offer more details of the heavenly realm scene. (Verse 7:22 is not a heavenly realm scene because it represents when He returns to earth).


So what is taking place on earth between the two heavenly scenes of 7:9-10 and 7:13-14 in these "Dream Sequence" verses? This is where the Messiah will go to the cross.

 

[Davidpt]

For what it is worth:

In chapter 2, Daniel records a "Dream Sequence" and a "Interpretation Sequence." The Dream Sequence verses ( 2:31-36) provide us with the big picture - essentially, they describe the formal structure where God will reveal His plan of restoration, not only for the Jews and Jerusalem, but also for all of mankind. The verses identified as "Interpretations Sequence" verses, which are found in 2:37-45 represent the "details" or those events or results that will be found WITHIN the "Dream Sequence" verses. Thus, they are not verses we should consider as being- given to us in a chronological manner. This method or presentation will also be found in chapters 7,8 9 and 11. So, it would be absolutely impossible for anyone to interpret these chapters assuming the latter verses (interpretation sequence verses) come chronologically right after the dream sequence verses.

In chapter 2, verses 31-36 gives us the "big picture" or the Dream Sequence. It tells us there will be 4 and only 4 kingdoms that come out of the sea and there are only 2 events given to us. Verse 2:34 represents the Stone striking the feet and symbolically breaking apart the iron and the clay elements WITHIN THE FEET ONLY. This represents the first coming of the Messiah when He would set up His earthly kingdom. Then, we have verse 2:35 which comes some 2000 years later and represents His return where He will destroy all of man's kinggdoms. EVERYONE interprets 2:34 and 2:35 to be the exact same event -both taking place at the end of time. But these Dream Sequence verses establishes His plan of salvation - where all the interpretations from 7 to 12 will fall within. Verses 2:37 -45 capture all of the "detail" or Interpretation Sequence verses.

After God briefly describes the first 4 kingdoms in 2:37-40), He immediately provides a significant level of details that take place in the 4th kingdom (Rome) but AFTER THE CROSS. Verses 2:41-45 speak to what takes place within the 4th kingdom revealing the how His church will be established and how it would be corrupted (the clay represented His people that were separated from Rome (iron) when He symbolically struck the feet (cross). After the cross, there would be two different types of clay - pottery clay that represented those Jews who would accept Him as their Messiah and go out to preach the Good News throughout the empire, and those designated as "ceramic or miry" clay. These represented those Jews who rejected Him and would continue in their pre-cross Jewish faith.

But as the pottery clay went out into the world preaching to the Gentiles, the sheer volume of Gentiles would come to dominate this growing and substantial Christian church. And it would not be too long until the Jews themselves (pottery clay) were marginalized and removed from this powerful almost Gentile dominated Christian church.

Now this is the pattern that God will use in chapters 7 -12. He would always provide the big picture first (Dream Sequence) and then follow it with His "detailed verses" (Interpretation Sequence) which ALWAYS fits WITHIN those earlier Dream Sequence verses (again, not chronological).

But this gets even further complicated in chapter 7. In this most important chapter and the sister chapter of chapter 2, God goes a step further: He gives us not one Dream and Interpretation set of verses but two - one earthly and one heavenly. Again, they are not to be viewed as taking place in a chronological manner.

Verses 7:1-8 speak of the Dreams Sequence of verses in an earthly scene. Then, He shows us what takes place in a heavenly scene in verses 7:9-10 (but this is a scene BEFORE the cross - BEFORE THE MESSIAH COMPLETES HIS 3.5 YEAR MINISTRY.

Verse 7:11-12 speak once again of an earthly scene where the little horn rises to the top of the beast and comes to full power (AFTER THE CROSS).

Verses 7:13-14 once again returns to the heavenly realm scene. This is AFTER THE CROSS AND WHEN JESUS IS PRESENTED TO HIS FATHER AND HE HAD FULFILLED HIS GOD GIVEN MISSION ON EARTH. He is now given dominion by the Father.

The rest of the verses in chapter 7 are ALL Interpretation Sequence verses providing the details of the events that will take place within verses 7:1-14. All are earthy scene detail verses except for verses 7:26-27 which offer more details of the heavenly realm scene. (Verse 7:22 is not a heavenly realm scene because it represents when He returns to earth).


So what is taking place on earth between the two heavenly scenes of 7:9-10 and 7:13-14 in these "Dream Sequence" verses? This is where the Messiah will go to the cross.

This post was good. I tend to agree with a lot of it. Verse 27 is where we might not be on the same page about, though.

 

[Davidpt]

Your Claim Is "False" its showing the eternal kingdom where "All People" will serve the Lord, your opinion is silenced in God's words of truth below "All People" means exactly that and your not changing God's words below

The Kingdom seen below is in the New Heaven and Earth, do "All People", nations, and languages presently serve Jesus Christ?

"100% Absolutely Not"

Your claim that Daniel 7:14 was fulfilled at the cross of Calvary and the resurrection is a man made fairy tale, the present world in the vast majority hate Jesus Christ and they don't serve him

The scripture below will be fulfilled in the "Future" eternal New Heaven and Earth

Jesus Is The Lord

Daniel 7:14KJV
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

The funny thing about it in my case, I can see what you have in red in verse 14, that being applicable to the here and now, regardless that you can't see it. While at the same time I can't see verse 27 also being applicable to the here and now. Because, in my view, verse 22 leads to verse 27, and that verse 22 hasn't been fulfilled yet. For one, verse 22 is involving a coming. No coming per the past 2000 years can explain the coming meant in verses 22, that being the point. Not to mention, the coming meant in verse 22 has to be preceded by the war against the saints in verse 21. It it the coming in verse 22 that puts an end to the war with the saints in verse 21. That's what verses 9-12 are involving, the era of time after that of verse 21. Yet verses 9-12 are not involving Revelation 20:11-15 like many would have us believe.

For one, the beast of Revelation 13 is in view in Daniel 7:9-12. While nowhere in Revelation 20:11-15 is the beast also in view. The beast is not standing among any of the dead in Revelation 20:11-15. It's already in the LOF when Revelation 20:11-15 is meaning. Plus, nowhere in all of Daniel 7:9-12 does it ever involve humans also being cast into the LOf when the little horn is cast into it. Nowhere does it say in any of those verses that lost humans were also given to the burning flame at the time. It is details like this that Amils have to disregard and ignore in order to supposedly prove Premil is not the correct view.

 

[CTK]

This post was good. I tend to agree with a lot of it. Verse 27 is where we might not be on the same page about, though.

Thank you very much, and I would certainly like to hear your thoughts on 27....thanks again.

 

[Davidpt]

So, I see you understand that Daniel 7:13-14 is about Christ's ascension. Daniel's visions were described in Daniel 7:2-14 and the angel explained them in verses 17-27. So, where in verses 17-27 do you think the angel explained the meaning of verses 13-14?

I let ChatGPT rephrase some things for me here and there. Still my thoughts, though.


That's a good question — and yes, I agree that Daniel 7:13–14 describes Christ’s ascension, not His Second Coming. The text says He comes “to” the Ancient of Days (not from), which fits Acts 1 and Psalm 110:1.

But when you ask, “Where in verses 17–27 is that explained?”, I think there’s a misunderstanding about how apocalyptic visions and interpretations work.

Daniel’s vision (vv. 2–14) includes multiple scenes — the four beasts, the thrones set up, the Ancient of Days seated, the books opened, the beast judged, the Son of Man coming to receive dominion, etc.

Then in vv. 17–27, the angel gives a high-level summary interpretation. That summary does not explain each individual verse line by line — especially not vv. 13–14 in isolation.

Instead, it focuses on:
The identity of the beasts (v.17)
The conflict with the saints (v.21)
The intervention of the Ancient of Days (v.22)
The judgment of the fourth beast (v.26)
The saints receiving the kingdom (v.27)

So vv. 13–14 are implicitly connected to vv. 22 and 27, but they’re not repeated or “explained” in detail. That’s not unusual. Apocalyptic interpretation sections often summarize rather than decode each symbol (compare Zechariah or Revelation).

Here’s how I see it harmonize:

• Daniel 7:13–14 – Christ ascends and receives authority (cf. Matt. 28:18; Eph. 1:20–22)
• Daniel 7:22 – A future point when the saints finally possess the kingdom (after beast is judged)
• Daniel 7:27 – The kingdom becomes visibly universal; “all dominions shall serve and obey Him”

This means vv. 13–14 are inaugural — the kingdom is given to Christ at His ascension. But vv. 22 and 27 point to the consummation, when that authority is fully exercised on earth and shared with His saints.

In other words:
Daniel 7:13–14 = Ascension
Daniel 7:22, 27 = Second Coming and Millennial reign.

There’s no contradiction. It's a case of “already, but not yet.” Christ received the kingdom at His ascension, but He has not yet enforced it over all nations. That only happens after the judgment of the beast (v.11, cf. Rev. 19:20), which is clearly still future.