LEFT BEHIND ... what to do?

[Ronald David Bruno]

Sounds reasonable to me.

The Early Church viewed the "Restrainer" as the Roman government. Both here and in the book of Revelation the Roman identification with something perverse or corrupt is covered up and made known only to wise Christians who recognized the language inferring Rome. Paul indicates that the Thessalonians knew who he was talking about. This goes back to the 4th Kingdom in Dan 7.

The 4th Kingdom was Rome, in my view, and cannot bring forth the Man of Sin, the "Little Horn," until after this 4th Kingdom has divided up into a minimum of 10 countries. And so, as long as the Empire stood, the Antichrist could not arrive. In fact, Imperialism has reigned in some form in Europe for most of NT history. In the modern age we do see the divided states of Europe that are now increasingly turning to Antichristianity. The Man of Sin should be arriving soon!

Needless to say, I reject the theory that the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit. Paul could easily have said this. Obviously, he was hiding the identity.

Rev 3.10, the church of Philadelphia, was a church in John's day, and was able to escape a time of intense trouble over the Empire at that time. This has nothing to do with the Reign of Antichrist, which isn't even mentioned.

The comparison of the Flood to the Day of Wrath is purely associated with the lack of human will to prepare for that day of judgment by repenting. It had nothing to do with whether national Israel had been punished severely for a long time before that day. In fact, Israel did not even exist yet.

So you're trying to create a perfect parallel where one cannot be made realistically. But the lack of religiosity and the lack of preparation is clearly the main idea in warning future generations not to be negligent in avoiding the sins of our times.

A major element in this parallel is the fact the judgment will be comprehensive at the end of the age, just as it was comprehensive in Noah's time. The world will not end, but everything will be shaken up, rebellion being completely eliminated across the world.

The fact that God is sovereign, He allows evil for a purpose and so restrains evil throughout history and when the time comes releases that power.

AI counters your view about the Restrainer not being the Holy Spirit:

Scriptures that suggest the Holy Spirit is the restrainer include 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7, which states that the one who restrains will be removed "from the midst," coinciding with the removal of the Church at the Rapture. Additional support comes from passages like Genesis 6:3 and Romans 8:2, which imply a connection between the Holy Spirit's work and the restraining of evil.

Key scriptures and reasoning

• 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7: This is the primary passage that speaks of a "restrainer." The argument is that the Holy Spirit's unique work of restraining lawlessness is done through indwelling believers, the Church. When the Church is "taken out of the way" at the Rapture, the restrainer is removed, and the "man of lawlessness" (the Antichrist) will be revealed.
• Genesis 6:3: God's statement, "My Spirit shall not always strive with man," suggests that the Holy Spirit has a role in restraining humanity's evil and that this restraint is temporary and can be removed.
• Romans 8:2: This verse speaks of the "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" that frees believers from the "law of sin," implying the Holy Spirit's active role in restraining lawlessness in the lives of Christians.
• Job 1:10-12: Satan acknowledges that his power is limited by God through a protective hedge. This supports the idea that God has a restraining force at work, and the Holy Spirit, being God, is the most logical candidate to be this force.
• Matthew 12:31: Jesus' warning about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit not being forgiven provides another theological link. If the Holy Spirit is God, and blasphemy against Him is a great sin, it highlights the immense power He holds.
• Ephesians 2:2: Paul refers to "the ruler of the kingdom of the air," which could be interpreted as Satan or other spiritual forces, and implies the Holy Spirit's work in opposing these powers.

Rationale for identifying the Holy Spirit as the Restrainer
The interpretation rests on several key points:

• Theological necessity: Only a divine and supernatural power would be sufficient to "restrain" the ultimate evil of the "man of lawlessness" and the mystery of lawlessness, which is described as being "already at work".
• Convicting the world: This idea aligns with Jesus's teaching in John 16:8, which states that the Holy Spirit "will convict the world of its guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment". The restraining of evil is seen as an extension of this work.
• Grammatical features: The passage switches from a neuter gender ("what is restraining," in verse 6) to a masculine gender ("he who now restrains," in verse 7). This change can be interpreted as referring to the Holy Spirit, as the Greek word for spirit (pneuma) is neuter, but the Spirit is a person, referred to with masculine pronouns in other New Testament texts (John 14:26; 15:26; 16:13).
• Connection to the church: Since the Holy Spirit indwells believers, the "taking out of the way" of the Restrainer is often tied to the Rapture of the church. The removal of the indwelling Holy Spirit, present within all Christians, would pave the way for the full emergence of lawlessness and the Antichrist.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

So you're trying to create a perfect parallel where one cannot be made realistically

I didn't create th scripture, " As in the days of Noah ..." which is an obvious parallel of the time before destruction came.

As for the 10 nations ( ten horns of the Beast), they are not a revised Roman empire as many think. This Treaty that ISRAEL and many ISLAMIC NATIONS JUST SIGNED will tell you who these nations are. We all know Iran has waged this proxy war against Isarel and is the key axis of evil, which we just partially dismantled by destroying their nuclear facilities. All the surrounding nations and Turkey and Pakisaten signed the agreement which in Prophecy will be broken in likely 3 1/2 years.
We also are reminded of this prophecy: "When they say peace and safety, sudden destruction comes upon them ..." Do we will see how this holds in the coming weeks.

 

[David in NJ]

The fact that God is sovereign, He allows evil for a purpose and so restrains evil throughout history and when the time comes releases that power.

AI counters your view about the Restrainer not being the Holy Spirit:

Scriptures that suggest the Holy Spirit is the restrainer include 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7, which states that the one who restrains will be removed "from the midst," coinciding with the removal of the Church at the Rapture. Additional support comes from passages like Genesis 6:3 and Romans 8:2, which imply a connection between the Holy Spirit's work and the restraining of evil.

Key scriptures and reasoning

• 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7: This is the primary passage that speaks of a "restrainer." The argument is that the Holy Spirit's unique work of restraining lawlessness is done through indwelling believers, the Church. When the Church is "taken out of the way" at the Rapture, the restrainer is removed, and the "man of lawlessness" (the Antichrist) will be revealed.
• Genesis 6:3: God's statement, "My Spirit shall not always strive with man," suggests that the Holy Spirit has a role in restraining humanity's evil and that this restraint is temporary and can be removed.
• Romans 8:2: This verse speaks of the "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" that frees believers from the "law of sin," implying the Holy Spirit's active role in restraining lawlessness in the lives of Christians.
• Job 1:10-12: Satan acknowledges that his power is limited by God through a protective hedge. This supports the idea that God has a restraining force at work, and the Holy Spirit, being God, is the most logical candidate to be this force.
• Matthew 12:31: Jesus' warning about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit not being forgiven provides another theological link. If the Holy Spirit is God, and blasphemy against Him is a great sin, it highlights the immense power He holds.
• Ephesians 2:2: Paul refers to "the ruler of the kingdom of the air," which could be interpreted as Satan or other spiritual forces, and implies the Holy Spirit's work in opposing these powers.

Rationale for identifying the Holy Spirit as the Restrainer
The interpretation rests on several key points:

• Theological necessity: Only a divine and supernatural power would be sufficient to "restrain" the ultimate evil of the "man of lawlessness" and the mystery of lawlessness, which is described as being "already at work".
• Convicting the world: This idea aligns with Jesus's teaching in John 16:8, which states that the Holy Spirit "will convict the world of its guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment". The restraining of evil is seen as an extension of this work.
• Grammatical features: The passage switches from a neuter gender ("what is restraining," in verse 6) to a masculine gender ("he who now restrains," in verse 7). This change can be interpreted as referring to the Holy Spirit, as the Greek word for spirit (pneuma) is neuter, but the Spirit is a person, referred to with masculine pronouns in other New Testament texts (John 14:26; 15:26; 16:13).
• Connection to the church: Since the Holy Spirit indwells believers, the "taking out of the way" of the Restrainer is often tied to the Rapture of the church. The removal of the indwelling Holy Spirit, present within all Christians, would pave the way for the full emergence of lawlessness and the Antichrist.

Whoever of you loves life and desires to see many good days, keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking lies - Psalm 34:12-13

#1 - "JESUS Says to you: "Immediately after the tribulation..........I Come for My Elect"
pre-trib is lie = keep your lips from speaking lies

#2 - Genesis, the Prophets Daniel, Isaiah, Zechariah and the LORD JESUS CHRIST and the Apostles all Prophecy that the Holy Spirit will remain in the Saints, on earth, until the 2nd Coming of Christ.

#3 - God has Promised that HE will NEVER leave a single saint/elect behind = Hebrews 13:1-5
pre-trib is the lie that spawns many more lies = once you begin with one lie then you accept and adapt to many more lies

Whoever of you loves life and desires to see many good days, keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking lies - Psalm 34:12-13

 

[Randy Kluth]

The fact that God is sovereign, He allows evil for a purpose and so restrains evil throughout history and when the time comes releases that power.

AI counters your view about the Restrainer not being the Holy Spirit:

Scriptures that suggest the Holy Spirit is the restrainer include 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7, which states that the one who restrains will be removed "from the midst," coinciding with the removal of the Church at the Rapture. Additional support comes from passages like Genesis 6:3 and Romans 8:2, which imply a connection between the Holy Spirit's work and the restraining of evil.

Key scriptures and reasoning

• 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7: This is the primary passage that speaks of a "restrainer." The argument is that the Holy Spirit's unique work of restraining lawlessness is done through indwelling believers, the Church. When the Church is "taken out of the way" at the Rapture, the restrainer is removed, and the "man of lawlessness" (the Antichrist) will be revealed.
• Genesis 6:3: God's statement, "My Spirit shall not always strive with man," suggests that the Holy Spirit has a role in restraining humanity's evil and that this restraint is temporary and can be removed.
• Romans 8:2: This verse speaks of the "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" that frees believers from the "law of sin," implying the Holy Spirit's active role in restraining lawlessness in the lives of Christians.
• Job 1:10-12: Satan acknowledges that his power is limited by God through a protective hedge. This supports the idea that God has a restraining force at work, and the Holy Spirit, being God, is the most logical candidate to be this force.
• Matthew 12:31: Jesus' warning about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit not being forgiven provides another theological link. If the Holy Spirit is God, and blasphemy against Him is a great sin, it highlights the immense power He holds.
• Ephesians 2:2: Paul refers to "the ruler of the kingdom of the air," which could be interpreted as Satan or other spiritual forces, and implies the Holy Spirit's work in opposing these powers.

Rationale for identifying the Holy Spirit as the Restrainer
The interpretation rests on several key points:

• Theological necessity: Only a divine and supernatural power would be sufficient to "restrain" the ultimate evil of the "man of lawlessness" and the mystery of lawlessness, which is described as being "already at work".
• Convicting the world: This idea aligns with Jesus's teaching in John 16:8, which states that the Holy Spirit "will convict the world of its guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment". The restraining of evil is seen as an extension of this work.
• Grammatical features: The passage switches from a neuter gender ("what is restraining," in verse 6) to a masculine gender ("he who now restrains," in verse 7). This change can be interpreted as referring to the Holy Spirit, as the Greek word for spirit (pneuma) is neuter, but the Spirit is a person, referred to with masculine pronouns in other New Testament texts (John 14:26; 15:26; 16:13).
• Connection to the church: Since the Holy Spirit indwells believers, the "taking out of the way" of the Restrainer is often tied to the Rapture of the church. The removal of the indwelling Holy Spirit, present within all Christians, would pave the way for the full emergence of lawlessness and the Antichrist.

AI is a rehash of the thoughts of a variety of people and opinions. As such, it can give historical data, but has no conscience, and cannot resolve conflicting views except to present each view as fact. You may as well provide Mormonism, JWs, or Islam as true, based on AI.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I didn't create th scripture, " As in the days of Noah ..." which is an obvious parallel of the time before destruction came.

As I said, the comparison of the Flood to the Day of Wrath is not focused upon irrational peripheral facts, but on the stated values that are being compared. There is no comparison of the tribulation of Israel before the Flood, as there has been before the Day of Wrath simply because there was no Israel before the Flood to be in tribulation.

The important elements, therefore, had to do with what was stated, which was the lack of civilization-wide awareness or concern about their lawlesss condition, as well as the large scope of the judgment. It had nothing to do with the tribulation of God's People before the moment of Wrath.

Your definition of the "Great Tribulation" is, in fact, questionable because Jesus defined it as a "Jewish Punishment" whereas you describe it as the Antichristian persecution of the saints along with God's punishments poured out on the world for 7 years. Luke 21 has Jesus defining the "Great Tribulation" very differently from this, specifically identifying Israel as the recipient of this Tribulation, both believers and unbelievers.

The unbelievers in Israel were the targets of God's wrath, while believers simply had to experience the negative effects of what had been caused by the unbelievers. So, the Great Tribulation preceding the final Day of Wrath is not comparable to the Flood of Noah's Day simply because there was no Israel prior to that time, and as such, no Great Tribulation to have been inflicted upon them.

As for the 10 nations ( ten horns of the Beast), they are not a revised Roman empire as many think.

The 4th Kingdom could not have been anything other than Rome, because it alone followed the Greek Empire indicated as the 3rd Kingdom in Dan 8. And it was out of this 4th Kingdom, Rome, that the 10 horns emerged.

This Treaty that ISRAEL and many ISLAMIC NATIONS JUST SIGNED will tell you who these nations are.

The attempt to wrest a modern "treaty" from Dan 9 is not what appears to be there. Confirming a "covenant" is not the same thing as a modern "treaty." I believe it was God's Covenant with Israel that was "confirmed," and that took place via a Roman leader who gave Jesus up to crucifixion, namely Pontius Pilate. Pilate's cowardly, illegal action is what enabled Jesus to die for Israel, thus confirming God's New Covenant with Israel.

The idea of an endtime "covenant" signed by Antichrist appears to be a futurist interpretation of something fulfilled in the past. Though I'm a futurist myself, I do not engage in trying to make all of these fulfilled prophecies "still future."

We all know Iran has waged this proxy war against Isarel and is the key axis of evil, which we just partially dismantled by destroying their nuclear facilities. All the surrounding nations and Turkey and Pakisaten signed the agreement which in Prophecy will be broken in likely 3 1/2 years.
We also are reminded of this prophecy: "When they say peace and safety, sudden destruction comes upon them ..." Do we will see how this holds in the coming weeks.

I agree that God is fulfilling prophecy in our day. But I interpret things the best I can the way I see it. Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[David in NJ]

AI is a rehash of the thoughts of a variety of people and opinions. As such, it can give historical data, but has no conscience, and cannot resolve conflicting views except to present each view as fact. You may as well provide Mormonism, JWs, or Islam as true, based on AI.

'christians' turning to AI is what the apostle Paul warned everyone of = Galatians 1:6-9

"I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed."

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

AI is a rehash of the thoughts of a variety of people and opinions. As such, it can give historical data, but has no conscience, and cannot resolve conflicting views except to present each view as fact. You may as well provide Mormonism, JWs, or Islam as true, based on AI.

It reviews thousands of commentaries by spirit filled theologians too, likey scanned a million books. But of course it hasn't sifted through Randy Kluth's writings, so I guess it may be challenging for AI to receive a full grasp of knowledge.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

As I said, the comparison of the Flood to the Day of Wrath is not focused upon irrational peripheral facts

The Flood was a peripheral destructive catastrophic event, so will the Great Tribulation be. It's described as being more stressful than at any other time. Why? In the Flood, people were swept away and died quickly. The GT will last longer and involve billions of people.

Your definition of the "Great Tribulation" is, in fact, questionable because Jesus defined it as a "Jewish Punishment" whereas you describe it as the Antichristian persecution of the saints along with God's punishments poured out on the world for 7 years.

It is both. They are and have been persecuted. If you visited South Sudan and got too close to their enemies, as they are putting your head on a chopping block, you may think differently.

The unbelievers in Israel were the targets of God's wrath

You think the Great Tribulation is a regional occurrence? Do you think the Flood was regional? Judgment Day is against ALL SINNERS WHO REJECTED JESUS ON THE ENTIRE PLANET.

The 4th Kingdom could not have been anything other than Rome

The 4th kingdom in Nebuchadnezzar's dream was Rome. That was an ancient prophecy fulfilled. I wasn't referring to Neb's statue, I was referring to the Beast with seven heads and ten horns in Revelation.
The Beast (Satan) has manifest itself throughout history in all the empires: Egyptian, Babylonia, Medo-Persian, Assyrian, Greek, Roman and Ottoman empires. The 7th empire lasted for almost 500 years and suffered a deadly blow in 1929 but has been resuscitated back to life. There are over 50 Muslim majority nations and now they have infiltrated every country. ITALY, Rome, the EU is not our problem. I do not think they are the Beast, I think Islam is and in the final battle, ten Muslim nations will join forces and attack Israel; but to answer their attack, the world will suffer a Great Tribulation where over half the population will die.
Sorry, this is not just a regional judgment. All mankind will be judged.
It is interesting that Israel was the test case for the world and they will still be tested; but you don't think the rest of the world will see judgment, with all the false religions and sinful people ( Moreso than the Jews btw.).

 

[Dave Watchman]

So if the 8th day Feast, Shemini Atzeret, on next Tuesday October 14 disappoints, (21 Day Delay), there still will be September 23-24 on the Enoch Calendar.

Next Tuesday is also the Golden Ratio, the Golden Intersection of Timelines. An intersection of calendars.

It's the anniversary of the October in 1582 when Pope Gregory introduced the Gregorian Calendar.

The golden ratio was called the extreme and mean ratio by Euclid,[2] and the divine proportion by Luca Pacioli;[3] it also goes by other names.​

​

Mathematicians have studied the golden ratio's properties since antiquity. It is the ratio of a regular pentagon's diagonal to its side and thus appears in the construction of the dodecahedron and icosahedron.[7] A golden rectangle—that is, a rectangle with an aspect ratio of φ {\displaystyle \varphi }⁠—may be cut into a square and a smaller rectangle with the same aspect ratio.​

​

www.timeanddate.com/date/durationresult.html?m1=10&d1=04&y1=1582&m2=10&d2=14&y2=2025​

The Golden Intersection of Timelines is a significant event occurring on 14–15 October 2025, marking a rare convergence of the Gregorian calendar, the Ancient Maya Long Count, and the Galactic Maya Count, all synchronized by the Golden Ratio (1.618033).​

​

This alignment is notable because 14–15 October 2025 is exactly 161,803 days after the introduction of the Gregorian calendar in 1582, a number that is a perfect fractal reflection of the Golden Ratio.​

​

The Gregorian calendar reform, initiated by Pope Gregory XIII, skipped ten days in October 1582—Thursday, October 4, was followed directly by Friday, October 15—to correct the accumulated drift of the Julian calendar, which had caused the calendar to fall out of sync with the solar year.​

​

This historical adjustment, which realigned the calendar with the seasons and the date of Easter, is now being referenced in the context of the Golden Intersection as a foundational moment in the timeline.​

​

AI-generated answer. Please verify critical facts.​

​

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1977416970942423432

A Once-in-a-Lifetime Event​

​

The Golden Intersection of Timelines is unparalleled in its significance. On 14–15 October 2025, three calendrical systems—the Gregorian calendar, the Ancient Maya Long Count, and the Galactic Maya Count—synchronize with mathematical precision, guided by the Golden Ratio (1.618033). This unique convergence will never occur again, making it a once-in-many-lifetimes event that calls humanity to reflect on the deeper patterns of existence.​

​

theharmonicfactor.com/golden-intersection/#​

​

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio

Note to Dave: October 14 is also Microsoft's end of support for Windows 10.

Microsoft's support for Windows 10 will end on October 14, 2025, after which the operating system will no longer receive security updates, bug fixes, or technical support.​

​

This means devices running Windows 10 will become increasingly vulnerable to malware and cyber threats, as critical security patches will cease to be issued.​

​

While the operating system will continue to function, Microsoft strongly recommends upgrading to Windows 11 to maintain security and performance.​

​

For consumers, an Extended Security Updates (ESU) option is available for one year at a cost of $30, or for free in the European Economic Area if users meet specific criteria such as having a Microsoft account and updated settings.​

​

AI-generated answer. Please verify critical facts.​

 

[Brakelite]

sabbath keeping cannot save a single soul
UNLESS
they are keeping God's Sabbath Rest which is CHRIST

Agree that keeping the Sabbath doesn't save a single soul. Not sure why you would make such a statement as if Sabbath keepers are somehow confused over the matter, or are actually taking Saturdays of work for the sole purpose of being saved. Do you have any evidence for that? Have you ever come across an Ellen White statement claiming Adventists are forgiven all their sins because they keep the Sabbath? Or perhaps something I've said that has motivated your fixation over the matter?

However, I don't agree that a rest in Christ saves you. To rest in Christ is certainly the goal of faith. But let us not fool ourselves. The are some who "rest" on Christ without understanding the gospel. They are presumptuous, are deceived. Sadly, not everyone manages to fully and completely trust Jesus through every battle and crisis the world and the spiritual realm throws at them, and have that kind of faith that fully surrenders. That's the ideal. And if one doesn't fully trust in the moment of intense heat and crisis as is soon to come upon all mankind, will God condemn such knowing how weak the human flesh is? I don't know. There's going to be a lot to be afraid of. There will be a lot to fear. I'm not qualified to answer those kind of questions, nor so legalistically minded to want to make the attempt.

What saves us? Faith in the redeeming power of the blood of the Lamb. That's it. Nothing can be added.
“And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. ”
Hebrews 9:22 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

So what is the fruit of Christ operating in the life? What kind of changes in the human experience do you expect as a result of the operation of the holy Spirit in the life? Considering the principle definition of sin is transgression against the law, do you think that at least one change a Christian ought to experience is a respect and love for the law that was previously missing, and a desire to obey the law rather than transgress the law and sin? Isn't that what the apostle Paul was getting at when he said,
“That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. ”
Romans 8:4 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

and...

“1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. ”
Romans 6:1-4 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

What is this newness of life if not at the very least, obedience to God's commandments?

 

[Randy Kluth]

It reviews thousands of commentaries by spirit filled theologians too, likey scanned a million books. But of course it hasn't sifted through Randy Kluth's writings, so I guess it may be challenging for AI to receive a full grasp of knowledge.

I don't know where it gets all of its info--unlikely to be yours or mine or those of your "cheerleader." ;) It's a fun thing to use, but we must always be conscious of the caveats.

 

[David in NJ]

Agree that keeping the Sabbath doesn't save a single soul. Not sure why you would make such a statement as if Sabbath keepers are somehow confused over the matter, or are actually taking Saturdays of work for the sole purpose of being saved. Do you have any evidence for that? Have you ever come across an Ellen White statement claiming Adventists are forgiven all their sins because they keep the Sabbath? Or perhaps something I've said that has motivated your fixation over the matter?

However, I don't agree that a rest in Christ saves you. To rest in Christ is certainly the goal of faith. But let us not fool ourselves. The are some who "rest" on Christ without understanding the gospel. They are presumptuous, are deceived. Sadly, not everyone manages to fully and completely trust Jesus through every battle and crisis the world and the spiritual realm throws at them, and have that kind of faith that fully surrenders. That's the ideal. And if one doesn't fully trust in the moment of intense heat and crisis as is soon to come upon all mankind, will God condemn such knowing how weak the human flesh is? I don't know. There's going to be a lot to be afraid of. There will be a lot to fear. I'm not qualified to answer those kind of questions, nor so legalistically minded to want to make the attempt.

What saves us? Faith in the redeeming power of the blood of the Lamb. That's it. Nothing can be added.
“And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. ”
Hebrews 9:22 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

So what is the fruit of Christ operating in the life? What kind of changes in the human experience do you expect as a result of the operation of the holy Spirit in the life? Considering the principle definition of sin is transgression against the law, do you think that at least one change a Christian ought to experience is a respect and love for the law that was previously missing, and a desire to obey the law rather than transgress the law and sin? Isn't that what the apostle Paul was getting at when he said,
“That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. ”
Romans 8:4 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

and...

“1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. ”
Romans 6:1-4 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

What is this newness of life if not at the very least, obedience to God's commandments?

Looking forward to seeing you in Heaven
Same goes for @BarneyFife

Just make sure you both get there by RESTING in the Lord Jesus Christ.

He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become sons of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The Flood was a peripheral destructive catastrophic event, so will the Great Tribulation be.

The "peripheral event" I referred to was the evidence of "great tribulation" prior to the 2nd Coming. We don't find the same "great tribulation" prior to the Flood of Noah because the circumstances governing the "great tribulation" did not exist yet.

The direct details to be compared between these 2 events was the callous unpreparedness of the civilization prior to these 2 events. Wickedness is everywhere present in the civilizations before these 2 catastrophic events. "Great Tribulation" prior to them is "peripheral" and not relevant.

It's described as being more stressful than at any other time. Why? In the Flood, people were swept away and died quickly. The GT will last longer and involve billions of people.

I have a different definition of the "great tribulation." It is greater only in the sense that it is a longer Jewish punishment than any other punishment they've experienced in history. The Jewish Diaspora, preceding the 2nd Coming, has lasted longer and is worse than the Babylonian Judgment, which lasted 70 years.

This calamity called the "Great Distress" Jesus defined as a *Jewish Punishment.* Of course, it was because of the wickedness of the Jews in rejecting and in persecuting Christ and Christianity. This is comparable to the wickedness of the people in Noah's day, who brought on the Flood.

Both these judgments are great because they are so encompassing. But these are distinct from what Jesus identified as the "Great Tribulation."

You think the Great Tribulation is a regional occurrence? Do you think the Flood was regional? Judgment Day is against ALL SINNERS WHO REJECTED JESUS ON THE ENTIRE PLANET.

I think the Flood was regional but destroyed the entire civilization within that region. I think the Day of Wrath at the 2nd Coming will be global, but will be sparked by Antichrist's European base. It will not destroy the planet, but the language suggests it destroys all of God's enemies, or defeats them completely.

The 4th kingdom in Nebuchadnezzar's dream was Rome. That was an ancient prophecy fulfilled. I wasn't referring to Neb's statue, I was referring to the Beast with seven heads and ten horns in Revelation.

In my view, the Beast arises out of Rome, the 4th Kingdom. Though the Roman Empire was ancient, its imperial tradition has continued all down through European history. Even Russia today tries to continue this Roman Imperial Tradition. Hitler certainly did!

The Beast (Satan) has manifest itself throughout history in all the empires: Egyptian, Babylonia, Medo-Persian, Assyrian, Greek, Roman and Ottoman empires. The 7th empire lasted for almost 500 years and suffered a deadly blow in 1929 but has been resuscitated back to life. There are over 50 Muslim majority nations and now they have infiltrated every country. ITALY, Rome, the EU is not our problem.

I think European apostasy is a worse problem than the Moslems, since they have greater power than the Moslems. Of course, Islamic Terror is indeed a problem, and always has been to the rest of the world.

I do not think they are the Beast, I think Islam is and in the final battle, ten Muslim nations will join forces and attack Israel; but to answer their attack, the world will suffer a Great Tribulation where over half the population will die.

I think the book of Revelation speaks of mass numbers dying not in a preliminary sense, but in the climactic sense at Armageddon. Or, it could be speaking of great numbers of people dying all through history. But I don't think such massive mortality characterizes the entire period of Antichrist's Reign.

Sorry, this is not just a regional judgment. All mankind will be judged.
It is interesting that Israel was the test case for the world and they will still be tested; but you don't think the rest of the world will see judgment, with all the false religions and sinful people ( Moreso than the Jews btw.).

Of course I think everybody will be judged. It's just like all other judgments in history--the judgments will not be exhaustive, meaning that mankind will not be completely annihilated.

I believe in a future Millennium. People will survive Armageddon. But Antichrisitanity itself will perish globally, comprehensively. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[David in NJ]

We don't find the same "great tribulation" prior to the Flood of Noah because the circumstances governing the "great tribulation" did not exist yet.

YES it did = JESUS said it did = Believe JESUS

 

[quietthinker]

Looking forward to seeing you in Heaven
Same goes for @BarneyFife

Just make sure you both get there by RESTING in the Lord Jesus Christ.

He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become sons of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Why the great emphasis on going to heaven or for that matter, being saved, as if it is the sole (selfish) objective of believing in Jesus?
I suppose you married your wife just so you could legitimise sex?.....or were there other reasons for marrying her ie, believing in her?

 

[David in NJ]

Why the great emphasis on going to heaven or for that matter, being saved, as if it is the sole (selfish) objective of believing in Jesus?
I suppose you married your wife just so you could legitimise sex?.....or were there other reasons for marrying her ie, believing in her?

Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment.
But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.
We love Him because He first loved us.
1 John 4:17-19

 

[Randy Kluth]

YES it did = JESUS said it did = Believe JESUS

Lest we fall into, Yes it did, No it didn't, Yes it did, etc., why don't we provide evidence for our position? Where did Jesus say that his comparison between the Flood of Noah and the Day of Wrath at the 2nd Coming inferred a "Great Tribulation" precedes both of them?

My argument is that the "Great Tribulation" is the Jewish Diaspora of the NT era, and as such is not even an event located strictly in the Reign of Antichrist. So the necessity of great tribulation before the Day of Wrath as well as before the Flood of Noah is irrelevant. Israel did not even exist before the Flood of Noah.

What I have argued, however, is that in comparing the Flood of Noah with the Day of Wrath great wickedness characerizes both events as the thing that brings upon civilization these judgments. In the case of Noah's day the Scriptures describe great wickedness was present universally. And in the case of the Day of Wrath we are told that the Antichrist brings about a great apostasy in the world, and influences all nations in his rebellion against God. This also is great wickedness bringing upon civilization judgment.

Great Tribulation is not mentioned as preceding the Flood of Noah because there was no Israel prior to the Flood to be subjected to "great tribulation." And it isn't predicted to take place before the Day of Wrath either in the sense of a period of great wrath throughout the Reign of Antichrist. So, there is no "Great Tribulation," as you're describing it, before either the Flood of Noah or the Day of Wrath at the 2nd Coming.

 

[quietthinker]

Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment.
But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.
We love Him because He first loved us.
1 John 4:17-19

With respect David, you've skirted the question.

 

[Brakelite]

Just make sure you both get there by RESTING in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Mmmm. Strange how you can turn faith into a legalistic requirement.

 

[ewq1938]

Mmmm. Strange how you can turn faith into a legalistic requirement.

The OT Sabbath was a legalistic requirement but the NT Sabbath is a spiritual requirement, not legalistic.