Why I don't believe in a pretrib rapture

[GeneZ]

Like what for instance?
What do we know now that was not known 2 thousand years ago?

2000 years ago the world was round, but no one knew it.

And, no one knew 2000 years ago that when the sun is out, it is night on the other side of the planet.

Imagine someone arguing with someone, that since no one 2000 years ago knew that the sun does not shine on the other side of the planet, when you are in sunlight? That you can not be right about it today?

That's what you do...

For there are yet things hidden in Scripture that God planned yet to be discovered.
There are treasures "hidden" in the Word of God.

Colossians 2:2-3​

​

My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love,
so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding,
in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ,
in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge."​

​

There are truths hidden in the Word of God.
Treasures of truth that are yet to be dug out and revealed!
Revealed at a right time, according to God's plan.
Be it 200 years ago, or fifty years from now.


grace to you

 

[GeneZ]

When is the second resurrection?

The second resurrection is the resurrection of the unbeliever.
They will be resurrected in a body that can die.
They will appear in their human body.


The second resurrection is the resurrection of all unbelievers after the millennial kingdom to face judgment at the great white throne judgment. This event is distinct from the first resurrection, which is the resurrection of believers to eternal life, and it will be followed by the second death, or the lake of fire, for the unrighteous.

.

 

[Taken]

When is the second resurrection?

As I've said many times,,,I don't know much about eschatology...
7 seals and all that.

I agree with some of what you've said IF I've understood it correctly.

However, I do NOT believe there is a TRIBULATION, at which time SOME may be taken away and unbelievers left.
There will be a final tribulation -
but no rapture as is understood today.

Beyond this, I have nothing more to add.
Jesus came one time.
He'll be coming back a second time, at the end of the world.
At this time there will be a great rapture of those still living.

But at the end of the world.

Who is saying Jesus’s is returning to Earth…
More than ONE Time? I didn’t.

Why would The Lord be ANGRY with those who Confessed their Word of Heartful belief TO the Lord…. And willingly laid down their bodily Life crucified with Jesus?

Do you know the end times Tribulations ARE Sent down from Heaven…
Because of Gods ANGER against men who Are Unrighteous and have NOT submitted unto Him?

Do you know that Happened Before and God Sent the flood to Kill ALL who were not Righteous? And ONLY eight prepared and were Saved?

Those IN Christ are “Prepared”, Having Received the Baptism OF the LAMB of God, and Righteous in Gods Accounting…

Do you know, the First (7) judgements (Seals) of the last Days Tribulation IS EFFECTED “BY THE LAMB OF GOD? His Anger, His Wrath, upon men who Rejected His Baptism…

If they Who Are Baptized By the Lamb of God… are ON the Earth… the Lambs WRATH would Also Be Upon Them.

Do you Punish your children When They Do as you say, or Deliver them from Harms way?

God is Just… He does Not Punish they who submit unto Him.

You need to examine your own thought process of WHY you think it reasonable The Lord God is ANGRY AT and would Punish men who willingly laid down their bodily Life for Him.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

2000 years ago the world was round, but no one knew it.

And, no one knew 2000 years ago that when the sun is out, it is night on the other side of the planet.

Imagine someone arguing with someone, that since no one 2000 years ago knew that the sun does not shine on the other side of the planet, when you are in sunlight? That you can not be right about it today?

That's what you do...

For there are yet things hidden in Scripture that God planned yet to be discovered.
There are treasures "hidden" in the Word of God.

Colossians 2:2-3​

​

My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love,
so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding,
in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ,
in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge."​

​

There are truths hidden in the Word of God.
Treasures of truth that are yet to be dug out and revealed!
Revealed at a right time, according to God's plan.
Be it 200 years ago, or fifty years from now.


grace to you

Little by little, bit by bit…God has provided the means for men to discover “and” use for good or evil , as God Observes.


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Bladerunner]

Close…but…Uh no.



You identified… Two distinct things…
soul “AND” spirit…
Then said “it” as if soul and spirit are the same things.

Not what God's word has to say...here are two passages that will help you understand. "And Hannah answered and said, No, my lord, I am a woman of a sorrowful spirit: I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but have poured out my soul before the LORD." 1SAMUEL 1:15, AND "Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul." (Job 7,11) Thus the soul and spirit are individual, separate from each other.
\Hope this helps, God Bless.

Then you claim…
* The soul AND spirit CAN NOT die.
* And the soul AND spirit … seems you are saying “are exclusive things” given To …”only”??? They born of water?

 

[ShineTheLight]

2000 years ago the world was round, but no one knew it.

And, no one knew 2000 years ago that when the sun is out, it is night on the other side of the planet.

Imagine someone arguing with someone, that since no one 2000 years ago knew that the sun does not shine on the other side of the planet, when you are in sunlight? That you can not be right about it today?

That's what you do...

For there are yet things hidden in Scripture that God planned yet to be discovered.
There are treasures "hidden" in the Word of God.

Colossians 2:2-3​

​

My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, ​

so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, ​

in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, ​

in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge."​

​

There are truths hidden in the Word of God.
Treasures of truth that are yet to be dug out and revealed!
Revealed at a right time, according to God's plan.
Be it 200 years ago, or fifty years from now.


grace to you

Proverbs 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter

 

[Taken]

Not what God's word has to say...here are two passages that will help you understand. "And Hannah answered and said, No, my lord, I am a woman of a sorrowful spirit: I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but have poured out my soul before the LORD." 1SAMUEL 1:15, AND "Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul." (Job 7,11) Thus

the soul and spirit are individual, separate from each other.

I believe the soul and spirit ARE separate things.
It was confusing when you appeared to lump them together “as the same thing”.

Further confusing, you saying the soul of man, the spirit of man Can NOT die.

How would you describe…
What a body of man is?
What a soul of man is?
What a spirit of man is?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[GodsGrace]

Not to be rude…but it is not of much interest to me to consider unlearned persons Beliefs regarding Scripture.

God bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

Who is unlearned Taken?
You should not heed anyone,,,
you should heed the bible.


My statement is this,
and THIS I KNOW:

Jesus is coming back ONE TIME
at the end of the world
to give EVERYONE their resurrected bodies....
those that are IN THE GRAVE and are already dead...

AND also to thsoe that are still living who will be changed in the twinkling of an eye.


1 Corinthians 15:20-24
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.


Please note verse 23....Jesus is coming back at the end.


1 Corinthians 15:50-52
50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot * inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.


Please note Paul is speaking about the end of the world when we receive our glorified bodies.
The dead will rise and the living will be changed.


Yes ma'am.
Heed the bible.

 

[GodsGrace]

Proverbs 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter

Who knows WHAT ELSE is hidden that we don't know about !

What a conundrum !

 

[GodsGrace]

After the 1,000 year reign of the Lord on Earth.
Rev 20:5

Revelation?
The book that is interpreted differently by tens of denominations and/or theologians?

I prefer solid scripture upon which DOCTRINE can be definitely determined.

You are free to believe what you will.

And no one has addressed the fact that the rapture was NEVER taught in the early church and only was invented in the 1830's.

But why learn about facts?

 

[GodsGrace]

The second resurrection is the resurrection of the unbeliever.
They will be resurrected in a body that can die.
They will appear in their human body.


The second resurrection is the resurrection of all unbelievers after the millennial kingdom to face judgment at the great white throne judgment. This event is distinct from the first resurrection, which is the resurrection of believers to eternal life, and it will be followed by the second death, or the lake of fire, for the unrighteous.

.

It's your opinion.

Some verses please?

There is ONLY ONE resurrection.
The one at the end of the world.

Unless, of course, you can prove otherwise.

 

[GodsGrace]

Who is saying Jesus’s is returning to Earth…
More than ONE Time? I didn’t.

Why would The Lord be ANGRY with those who Confessed their Word of Heartful belief TO the Lord…. And willingly laid down their bodily Life crucified with Jesus?

Do you know the end times Tribulations ARE Sent down from Heaven…
Because of Gods ANGER against men who Are Unrighteous and have NOT submitted unto Him?

Do you know that Happened Before and God Sent the flood to Kill ALL who were not Righteous? And ONLY eight prepared and were Saved?

Those IN Christ are “Prepared”, Having Received the Baptism OF the LAMB of God, and Righteous in Gods Accounting…

Do you know, the First (7) judgements (Seals) of the last Days Tribulation IS EFFECTED “BY THE LAMB OF GOD? His Anger, His Wrath, upon men who Rejected His Baptism…

If they Who Are Baptized By the Lamb of God… are ON the Earth… the Lambs WRATH would Also Be Upon Them.

Do you Punish your children When They Do as you say, or Deliver them from Harms way?

God is Just… He does Not Punish they who submit unto Him.

You need to examine your own thought process of WHY you think it reasonable The Lord God is ANGRY AT and would Punish men who willingly laid down their bodily Life for Him.

Glory to God,
Taken

I respond to scripture.
Not personal opinion.

Please show,,,with NT scripture from the Apostles that were teaching what Jesus taught
that Jesus is going to remove persons from earth before a great tribulation.

My understanding is that those that believe in the rapture DO believe that Jesus is coming in the clouds to remove these believers.
Whether or not this is your understanding is irrelevant to this conversation which is regarding the RAPTURE, as is understood today.

No rapture in the NT.

 

[Taken]

Who is unlearned Taken?

”As I've said many times,,,I don't know much about eschatology...
7 seals and all that.

My statement is this,
and THIS I KNOW:

Jesus is coming back ONE TIME
at the end of the world

Yes, Jesus will return to Earth.
No, Not at the END of the World, Rather, while mortal men still occupy THIS world for 1,000 years.

to give EVERYONE their resurrected bodies....

(Giving men their body??)
Every man already HAS his own body, whether in the Grave or on Earth.

Yes Jesus Returns TO EARTH…
And WHO IS “WITH” Him?

AND also to thsoe that are still living who will be changed in the twinkling of an eye.

1 Corinthians 15:20-24
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

At His “coming”… is NOT at His “arrival”.

Please note verse 23....Jesus is coming back at the end.

You completely “skip”… WHO is “coming WITH JESUS”… AND WHEN and HOW … They Coming WITH JESUS…GOT TO WHERE JESUS IS and “come WITH Him on His Return TO Earth.

Please note Paul is speaking about the end of the world when we receive our glorified bodies.
The dead will rise and the living will be changed.

Again, drawing your attention to…
You skipping over…
WHO and HOW Are THEY WHO are “WITH JESUS”, WHEN HE “Returns TO Earth”.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[amigo de christo]

When is the second resurrection?

As I've said many times,,,I don't know much about eschatology...
7 seals and all that.

I agree with some of what you've said IF I've understood it correctly.

However, I do NOT believe there is a TRIBULATION, at which time SOME may be taken away and unbelievers left.
There will be a final tribulation -
but no rapture as is understood today.

Beyond this, I have nothing more to add.
Jesus came one time.
He'll be coming back a second time, at the end of the world.
At this time there will be a great rapture of those still living.

But at the end of the world.

OH indeed HE came once and At the end of the world He sure will be coming back again a second time
and take , rapture us up with him . For the dead in christ shall rise and we who are still alive on this earth
shall be caught up together to be WITH HIM forever and ever and ever .
The signs of the times were that we would be living in a fallen church age
a time of great reprobation
and a time wherein the peoples , tribes , religoins of earth and even christendome
would be a we are one world , as nimrods days
And guess what they would be beleiving
A LIE , for they rejected the love of the truth , so a delusion to BELEIVE a lie would be sent and they Damned
under the wrath of GOD . and guess what was a key thing they would be hollering
right before that day of SUDDEN destruction came upon them PEACE N SAFETY .
WELL gues what my ecumincal interfaith followers and their leaders have done .
THEY LIED to the false religoins and said we all serving the same GOD an dcoming to GOD in our own ways , own religoin
And sold this to even christendom
and they have sold this as the path to PEACE N SAFETY . SO my advice is BE WATcHING and be ready
cause FOR all this they have done THE VERY JUDGEMENT OF GOD and of THE LAMB
shall come raining down in fury upon them all . THE SIGNS have never been so clear .

 

[GodsGrace]

OH indeed HE came once and At the end of the world He sure will be coming back again a second time
and take , rapture us up with him . For the dead in christ shall rise and we who are still alive on this earth
shall be caught up together to be WITH HIM forever and ever and ever .
The signs of the times were that we would be living in a fallen church age
a time of great reprobation
and a time wherein the peoples , tribes , religoins of earth and even christendome
would be a we are one world , as nimrods days
And guess what they would be beleiving
A LIE , for they rejected the love of the truth , so a delusion to BELEIVE a lie would be sent and they Damned
under the wrath of GOD . and guess what was a key thing they would be hollering
right before that day of SUDDEN destruction came upon them PEACE N SAFETY .
WELL gues what my ecumincal interfaith followers and their leaders have done .
THEY LIED to the false religoins and said we all serving the same GOD an dcoming to GOD in our own ways , own religoin
And sold this to even christendom
and they have sold this as the path to PEACE N SAFETY . SO my advice is BE WATcHING and be ready
cause FOR all this they have done THE VERY JUDGEMENT OF GOD and of THE LAMB
shall come raining down in fury upon them all . THE SIGNS have never been so clear .

Yes sir.
Agreed.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, Jesus will return to Earth.
No, Not at the END of the World, Rather, while mortal men still occupy THIS world for 1,000 years.

to give EVERYONE their resurrected bodies....

(Giving men their body??)
Every man already HAS his own body, whether in the Grave or on Earth.

Yes Jesus Returns TO EARTH…
And WHO IS “WITH” Him?



At His “coming”… is NOT at His “arrival”.



You completely “skip”… WHO is “coming WITH JESUS”… AND WHEN and HOW … They Coming WITH JESUS…GOT TO WHERE JESUS IS and “come WITH Him on His Return TO Earth.



Again, drawing your attention to…
You skipping over…
WHO and HOW Are THEY WHO are “WITH JESUS”, WHEN HE “Returns TO Earth”.

Glory to God,
Taken

I don't see any scripture.
I don't see any of Jesus' teaching.
Jesus said no one knows the time,,,and yet we have Christians trying to figure out the time.

I prefer to listen and learn from Jesus.

Paul did not teach any rapture.

Your opinion does not interest me Taken.
Post scripture.

 

[Marvelloustime]

OH indeed HE came once and At the end of the world He sure will be coming back again a second time
and take , rapture us up with him . For the dead in christ shall rise and we who are still alive on this earth
shall be caught up together to be WITH HIM forever and ever and ever .
The signs of the times were that we would be living in a fallen church age
a time of great reprobation
and a time wherein the peoples , tribes , religoins of earth and even christendome
would be a we are one world , as nimrods days
And guess what they would be beleiving
A LIE , for they rejected the love of the truth , so a delusion to BELEIVE a lie would be sent and they Damned
under the wrath of GOD . and guess what was a key thing they would be hollering
right before that day of SUDDEN destruction came upon them PEACE N SAFETY .
WELL gues what my ecumincal interfaith followers and their leaders have done .
THEY LIED to the false religoins and said we all serving the same GOD an dcoming to GOD in our own ways , own religoin
And sold this to even christendom
and they have sold this as the path to PEACE N SAFETY . SO my advice is BE WATcHING and be ready
cause FOR all this they have done THE VERY JUDGEMENT OF GOD and of THE LAMB
shall come raining down in fury upon them all . THE SIGNS have never been so clear .

@amigo de christo

 

[Taken]

Revelation?
The book that is interpreted differently by tens of denominations and/or theologians?

So? Have you spent your time Reading and Studying Tens of Thousands mens Interpretations regarding the last days?
I haven’t, know do I know there are tens of thousands different views to make such a claim.

I do NOT look to men to discover the MEANING of Gods WORDS… I instead do as God Taught and ASK the Source of Gods word for His meaning of His Word.

And no one has addressed the fact that the rapture was NEVER taught in the early church

Disagree.
I presume you are calling “the early Church”, the Gentile Church of Rome?

Actually the “Early Church”… was Established by Jesus, And Jews were the appointed TEACHERS, not Gentiles.

Outdoor gatherings, Tent gatherings, Temple gatherings, Synagogue gatherings…WERE “WHERE” they the “PEOPLE” desiring to Hear, Learn, Join “groups of PEOPLE, being called… THE Church”…(not the places… “the Joined People are the Church”.)

and only was invented in the 1830's.

Invention in 1830’s?

Odd. Because Jesus Appointed “SAUL/Paul” to Teach WHAT Paul Spent 3 Years Learning in Arabia, from the Spirit of God…. THEN set Paul himself Traveling TO Preach…in person, by proxy, letters, helpers Paul appointed.

I trust the following is well BEFORE some invention you claim happened in 1830.

1 Thes. 1
[1] Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Are you not understanding of Paul’s Teaching, regarding those IN Christ (bodily alive or bodily dead) Being summoned UP to the clouds to meet their Lord in the Air?

1 Thes 4:
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

But why learn about facts?

Odd. I am not the one claiming … ->

”As I've said many times,,,I don't know much about eschatology...
7 seals and all that.

No Rapture in the NT

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[GodsGrace]

So? Have you spent your time Reading and Studying Tens of Thousands mens Interpretations regarding the last days?
I haven’t, know do I know there are tens of thousands different views to make such a claim.

I do NOT look to men to discover the MEANING of Gods WORDS… I instead do as God Taught and ASK the Source of Gods word for His meaning of His Word.




Disagree.
I presume you are calling “the early Church”, the Gentile Church of Rome?

Actually the “Early Church”… was Established by Jesus, And Jews were the appointed TEACHERS, not Gentiles.

Outdoor gatherings, Tent gatherings, Temple gatherings, Synagogue gatherings…WERE “WHERE” they the “PEOPLE” desiring to Hear, Learn, Join “groups of PEOPLE, being called… THE Church”…(not the places… “the Joined People are the Church”.)



Invention in 1830’s?

Odd. Because Jesus Appointed “SAUL/Paul” to Teach WHAT Paul Spent 3 Years Learning in Arabia, from the Spirit of God…. THEN set Paul himself Traveling TO Preach…in person, by proxy, letters, helpers Paul appointed.

I trust the following is well BEFORE some invention you claim happened in 1830.

1 Thes. 1
[1] Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Are you not understanding of Paul’s Teaching, regarding those IN Christ (bodily alive or bodily dead) Being summoned UP to the clouds to meet their Lord in the Air?

1 Thes 4:
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



Odd. I am not the one claiming … ->



Glory to God,
Taken

YOUR verse

1 Thessalonians 4
1 Thes 4:
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



Please explain WHY Paul was making the above statement to the Thessalonians.
He was telling the Tessalonians to stop waiting for Jesus to return....they believed it was eminent.

Paul was describing the events at Jesus' ONE TIME return at the end of the world.

The dead in Christ will rise first... verse 16
then those that are living at the time will be caught up together with them...verse 17

AND SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD.
It's describing the end times.

No rapture.
Paul never taught a rapture.

And, I notice you are now separating the JEWS from the GENTILES.

I thought Jesus established ONE CHURCH...
I believe He stated that we are to be united....
same teaching as Paul.

Seems you don't believe much of the NT.

 

[Taken]

Paul did not teach any rapture.

Your opinion does not interest me Taken.

Post scripture.

Already did.
Scripture is Knowledge, which was posted to you, for you.

Understanding the knowledge is not something I can DO FOR You, or You can Figure out FOR you.

“Caught up” (who and from where to where) is clearly revealed BY Paul.
If you require Lessons in Languages…from Aramaic, to Greek, to Italian, to English…
That’s on you to learn and discover… or apparently so far… NOT your interest.