Two Gatherings at Jesus' Coming

[Spiritual Israelite]

Unless you have something in Scritpure which actually says this, it remains your opinion based on the similarity of numbers.

David selected 24 courses of priests to organize the priestly service given the number of priests there were at that time. The one that served stood in for his family, yet he was still one actual man who served in a single role.

The 24 elders in heaven are 24 elders. Some say they represent the church like the 24 priests represented the families. But the church isn't divided into families, so it breaks down. And the 24 courses of priests, the Bible actually tells us what this all is. The 24 elders, nothing says they are anything other than 24 elders. Maybe Jonadab, and others whom God made promises to. But that's just my speculation, I don't know.

Just because we see the same numbers in various places doesn't mean we can go beyond what is written. When we do, it is just sharing our personal opinions. For myself, I prefer what has Scriptural Authority, and not, "You can't miss it, it's obvious." To you then. To me, what the words tell us seems rather obvious.

In other words, you think that scripture always just spells everything out for us even though that is clearly not the case, especially in a book like Revelation.

Using the logic you're using here to conclude that it's referring to a literal 24 elders, should we conclude that the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ, has a literal seven horns and a literal seven eyes that are the literal seven Spirits of God?

Revelation 5:6 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. 6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

 

[David in NJ]

Unless you have something in Scritpure which actually says this, it remains your opinion based on the similarity of numbers.

David selected 24 courses of priests to organize the priestly service given the number of priests there were at that time. The one that served stood in for his family, yet he was still one actual man who served in a single role.

The 24 elders in heaven are 24 elders. Some say they represent the church like the 24 priests represented the families. But the church isn't divided into families, so it breaks down. And the 24 courses of priests, the Bible actually tells us what this all is. The 24 elders, nothing says they are anything other than 24 elders. Maybe Jonadab, and others whom God made promises to. But that's just my speculation, I don't know.

Just because we see the same numbers in various places doesn't mean we can go beyond what is written. When we do, it is just sharing our personal opinions. For myself, I prefer what has Scriptural Authority, and not, "You can't miss it, it's obvious." To you then. To me, what the words tell us seems rather obvious.

Much love!

I am NOT responding to the "24 elders"

For myself, I prefer what has Scriptural Authority, and not, "You can't miss it, it's obvious." To you then. To me, what the words tell us seems rather obvious.

GREAT

Here is the "You can't miss it, it's obvious."

The Bride of Christ = Revelation 22:1

Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a Bride adorned for Her Husband.

"You can't miss it, it's obvious." = Revelation 21:9-13
Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the Lamb’s wife.”
And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the Great City, the Holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.

 

[Randy Kluth]

OK. I don't see that relates to the pre-trib rapture, which involves removing those in Christ from this world.

I wasn't relating this earthly False Christ to a Pre-Trib Rapture at all. I was just explaining how I believe the Thessalonian Church may have been deceived by a claimed false Coming of Christ for his Church. They would see this earthly Cult as evidence that Christ had come and had appeared to their Cult Leader. It might look like the Kingdom had arrived in a growing Cult.

Again I would point you to the Jehovah's Witnesses, who have claimed that Christ came, in a sense, to heaven. They used this claim to validate their cult as representative of the Kingdom on earth. And indeed many so-callled believers have fallen for that deception.

Paul, therefore, warned believers not to believe that Christ has come and has appeared to any group, indicating that the Kingdom had come to earth. These deceptions will characterize the present state of the Kingdom on earth, which remains unrealized until the true Christ appears from heaven and destroys all of the imposters.

The only people I know that think Jesus will rapture people to a location on the earth are post trib.

Postribs believe, generally, that Christians are caught up to the clouds, where they immediately return with Christ in immortal bodies. Indeed, the purpose of our being gathered to the clouds is so that we may return with Christ in immortal bodies.

That we meet Him to "escort Him to the earth". Pre-tribbers typically think Jesus takes us into heaven until we return with Him at the end of the 70th week. Pre-wrathers typically think we will remain in the sky with Jesus as He pours out His wrath.

I don't see a whole lot of difference between Pretrib, PreWrath, and Postrib. None of these suffer the Wrath of God, and all are Premillennial.

The biggest problem I have with Pretrib is Imminency Doctrine, the notion that Christ could return "at any moment." I don't believe that has ever been true.

There is no contradiction, per se, only that the Israelites gathered when Jesus comes, the chosen, don't include the "righteous gentiles" as they will be gathered later. So they are not part of "the chosen". And the "righteous gentiles" are known not by being the children of God, and are not considered righteous because of faith in Christ, rather, they are known by their works, and because of their works, they are declared righteous. The body of Christ is imputed with righteousness through their faith.

I have no idea what this means? I don't see these distinctions in the Scriptures--only in those who are trying to explain their brand of eschatology.

This is how the body of Christ does not fit either gathering.

I believe Israel is saved *at the coming of the Lord.* This involves those who are not yet saved in the present age.

I believe those who have been saved in ages past are glorified, and gathered, at the Lord's Coming, as well. Different gatherings. Both are related because the glorified saints will rule with Christ over th earth, enabling the restoration of both Israel and the many Christian nations who have fallen into disarray in the present age.

I guess we look at things in very different ways. But we should be just fine when the Lord comes.

 

[Davy]

The body of Christ will be gathered to Jesus before that time. We know the body of Christ is not included in these post tribulation gatherings, for the reasons given in this thread.

Much love!

Afraid not, Jesus said He comes AFTER... the tribulation to gather His saints, per Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27.

 

[ScottA]

One of the reasons I believe in a pre-trib rapture, there is no place for the body of Christ at His coming, only that we return with Jesus.

Matthew 24:30-31 KJV
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

These are Israel.

Joel 3:1 KJV
For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

Matthew 25:31-32 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

These are the Gentiles, both righteous and unrighteous.

Joel 3:2 KJV
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Joel 3:2 LITV
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat. And I will enter into judgment with them there, for My people and My inheritance, Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations; and they shared out My land.

When Jesus returns, He will send the angels to gather Israel back to their promised land, and then will gather the gentiles to be judged. They will be separated righteous and wicked, based on whether they supplied the needs for Israel.

The Body of Christ is not judged righteous or wicked based on works, but is righteous being baptized into the body of Christ.

Much love!

I've read the Original Post a couple times now, but just don't get the connection with the Title.

 

[Scott Downey]

Of course he does! And, In Christ, neither Greek nor Jew. What would you say is the significance of that fact, neither Greek nor Jew? This is not just flowery speech of a nice warm kumbuya, he actually means something here. Neither Greek, nor Jew. What is the significance?

Much love!

Matthew 12:28
But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Mark 3:11
And the unclean spirits, whenever they saw Him, fell down before Him and cried out, saying, “You are the Son of God.”

Luke 1:47
And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.

John 4:24
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

John 6:63
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

Romans 14:17
for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 15
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a [m]mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

55 “O[n] Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”

1 Corinthians 15:43-45
New King James Version
43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

The flesh of this body is passing away, and we will all be changed.
The flesh is temporary.
God speaks to us from eternity.

 

[Scott Downey]

1 John 2:17
And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

1 Corinthians 7
29 But this I say, brethren, the time is short, so that from now on even those who have wives should be as though they had none, 30 those who weep as though they did not weep, those who rejoice as though they did not rejoice, those who buy as though they did not possess, 31 and those who use this world as not misusing it. For the form of this world is passing away.

James 4:14
whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away.

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

 

[marks]

I guess we look at things in very different ways. But we should be just fine when the Lord comes.

Yes indeed!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Matthew 12:28
But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Mark 3:11
And the unclean spirits, whenever they saw Him, fell down before Him and cried out, saying, “You are the Son of God.”

Luke 1:47
And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.

John 4:24
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

John 6:63
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

Romans 14:17
for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 15
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a [m]mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

55 “O[n] Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”

1 Corinthians 15:43-45
New King James Version
43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

The flesh of this body is passing away, and we will all be changed.
The flesh is temporary.
God speaks to us from eternity.

I don't see how any of this addresses my question to you.

And, In Christ, neither Greek nor Jew. What would you say is the significance of that fact, neither Greek nor Jew? This is not just flowery speech of a nice warm kumbuya, he actually means something here. Neither Greek, nor Jew. What is the significance?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Nowhere in all of scripture does it teach that anyone's eternal destiny will ever be based on their works. You are sadly mistaken. The only way that anyone who has ever lived can inherit eternal life is if they had faith. Salvation never has been and never will be based on works.

Hear the Words of Jesus:

Matthew 25:31-46 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36) Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37) Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38) When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39) Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40) And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

You will either believe or disbelieve His prophecy. If you disbelieve, you will re-write it into something else that Jesus did not say. That seems to be your pattern.

Much love!

 

[JLB]

One of the reasons I believe in a pre-trib rapture, there is no place for the body of Christ at His coming, only that we return with Jesus.

There is one coming of the Lord.

There is one gathering of His people, both in heaven and on earth, all will be gathered together.


But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17


The resurrection and rapture occur at His coming.

 

[marks]

And that's clearly false. You can't find any scripture which teaches that Jesus has 2 brides. Paul showed who the one bride of Christ is in Ephesians 5:22-33 and it's the church made up of Jew and Gentile believers.

Paul compared the church to a bride, however, here it is, what you claim is not there.

Ephesians 5:25-33 KJV
25) Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26) That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27) That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28) So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29) For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30) For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31) For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32) This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
33) Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

We are not called Jesus' wife, we are identified as His body. This is what the Bible says.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Do you take this same approach to the entire book of Revelation? When you say "it's about what it says it's about" you mean that it's meant to be taken literally as written. So, with that in mind, make sure you are on the lookout for a literal seven-headed, ten-horned beast and literal seven-headed, ten-horned dragon because that's what the text says and it's about what it says it's about.

Ridicule, mock, whatever, do you think I am affected by your poor speech?

And I saw a great sign in the heavens . . .

So you see, the Bible identifies when there is a symbol.

. . . that ancient serpent, the devil, Satan . . .

And the Bible identifies the meaning of the symbol.

And in these way, we have Godly authority to interpret accordingly.

When you claim the 144,000 are not actually 144,000 men from 12 tribes of Israel, you do not have such authority, it's just your unfounde opinion.

When you read the Bible for what is says, you will reach certain conclusions, and they will be generally speaking the same conclusions as anyone who reads the Bible that same way.

When you decided you can declare things to be symbols that the Bible does not declare such, and when you assert your opinions of what those supposed "symbols" mean as fact, your are presenting your opinions as though the Bible taught such things, when it does not.

Some are symbols, and some are not. Let the Bible itself identify the symbols, and the meanings, and then you can know it's teaching. And then just stay with that. Don't add your opinions.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You're not showing much love when you accuse others of not believing in scripture.

Ephesians 4:25 KJV
Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

I challenge you to accept what is written, in this way you will learn and grow.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The significance is that one's ethnicity or nationality has no bearing at all on being a child of God, just as being male or female has no bearing on that, and just as being bond/slave or free has no bearing on that.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Don't stop there.

There is neither Greek Nor Jew in Christ.

So who is this speaking of?

Romans 11:25-26 KJV
25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

There is neither Greek nor Jew in Christ.

Who is Israel that will be saved?

There is neither Greek nor Jew in Christ.

Who is Israel that will be saved?

Much love!

 

[marks]

In other words, you think that scripture always just spells everything out for us even though that is clearly not the case, especially in a book like Revelation.

Using the logic you're using here to conclude that it's referring to a literal 24 elders, should we conclude that the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ, has a literal seven horns and a literal seven eyes that are the literal seven Spirits of God?

Revelation 5:6 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. 6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

So then you eschew Biblical authority? You won't be happy unless you get to add to what it says? You think you cannot simply except the propositional statements of narrative prophecy? Then how is it you believe other propositional statements of narrative prophecies? There is an inconsistency here.

Do you accept this as written:

Matthew 24:29-30 KJV
29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Will this happen as written? Why or why not?

Much love!

 

[marks]

I've read the Original Post a couple times now, but just don't get the connection with the Title.

I wrote that title because some believe the Sheep/Goats judgment to be a parable of good living, or to be a retelling of the great white throne judgment.

I've written to highlight that these gatherings both occur when Jesus comes, and implications of that fact.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

Ephesians 4:25 KJV
Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

I challenge you to accept what is written, in this way you will learn and grow.

Much love!

The HOLY SPIRIT challenges you to "speak the truth with his neighbor"


the LORD Says to you @marks "Immediately AFTER the tribulation........see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven"

the Apostle Paul says to you: "For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

the Apostle John says to you "Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

pre-trib rapture does not exist in scripture therefore it is not Truth since it opposes the words of God

there is no love in speaking falsehood

much love to you @marks

 

[The Light]

But my biggest problem with a Pretrib Rapture is that we are taught in 2 Thes 2 that this Rapture of the Church *cannot happen* unless Antichrist comes 1st. Actually, we are told in this chapter that Christ will come for his Church *at* the destruction of the Antichrist!

So doctrinally, it is not admissable that the Church actually gets to go to heaven before Antichrist arrives and persecutes 144,000 Jewish believers, who are still relative infants in Christ. This belief is the brain child of John Darby, who was convinced from earlier teaching that the Church must not suffer God's wrath, and so must escape before God's wrath falls upon the Antichristian world. Some today would call this "PreWrath."

I see nothing in those verses that say the rapture of the CHURCH cannot happen until the Antichrist comes. You are reading things into the verses.

 

[David in NJ]

I see nothing in those verses that say the rapture of the CHURCH cannot happen until the Antichrist comes. You are reading things into the verses.

Hey, you are still here!!!

What happened to the "any day now for October"?

Are you shooting for November now???