No Escape : From Hell

[MonoBiblical]

I've been to the prison in Rome where Paul spent some time.
And where Peter was imprisoned and held in chains.

In Acts, the Romans did not charge him with anything. Yet, the early church fathers agree with Ebionite document that calls him Simon. the psuedo-clementines. He survived like Jonah.

 

[MonoBiblical]

So how do you KNOW what they discussed??

It's your belief system that makes you doubt Mono.
And I'm not even sure what it is BTW.

Polycarp's theology was trinitarian, and Ignatius was a Valentinian.

 

[GodsGrace]

In Acts, the Romans did not charge him with anything. Yet, the early church fathers agree with Ebionite document that calls him Simon. the psuedo-clementines. He survived like Jonah.

Paul WAS called Simon.
Are you an ebionite?

Paul was in the prison at the Roman Forum - the Mamertine Prison.

We were discussing Ignatius of Antioch.
Now we're discussing Paul?

Too many rabbit trails Mono.
I like to stick to the subject.

Let's say it like this:
You apparently do not agree with orthodox Christianity.
So, as my thread (which I believe you've been on) states....there are certain criteria one must meet to be defined as Christian.
Now,,,you have Christian under your avatar.
So why do you not believe what Christians believe?
Why do you belong to a different religion and yet call yourself a Christian?
Perhaps you'd like to discuss this on the other thread?

(which you are on)

Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?

Are there any scriptures that declare one must believe in the trinity doctrine to gain salvation? Nice signature line!

www.christianityboard.com

 

[GodsGrace]

Polycarp's theology was trinitarian, and Ignatius was a Valentinian.

I don't know what a Valentinian is.

Ignatius believed Jesus was God.
Unless there are two Gods,,,,then he also, in effect, believed in the trinity.

IOW,,,he did not use the term Trinity,,,,as neither did the NT...
but he affirmed that Jesus is God and that Jesus was human.
This is known as the hypostatic union.

The IDEA that Jesus is God was present from the writings in the NT.
The Trinity, as a doctrine, was always present but was confirmed in the councils because there were different teachings circulating that were heretical.

For instance,,,the Council of Nicea was to dismiss the heretical belief of Arianism.

 

[MonoBiblical]

Paul WAS called Simon.
Are you an ebionite?

Paul was in the prison at the Roman Forum - the Mamertine Prison.

We were discussing Ignatius of Antioch.
Now we're discussing Paul?

There are myths surrounding Paul.

Too many rabbit trails Mono.
I like to stick to the subject.

Let's say it like this:
You apparently do not agree with orthodox Christianity.
So, as my thread (which I believe you've been on) states....there are certain criteria one must meet to be defined as Christian.
Now,,,you have Christian under your avatar.
So why do you not believe what Christians believe?

Are you saying Ben Franklin wasn't a Christian?

Why do you belong to a different religion and yet call yourself a Christian?
Perhaps you'd like to discuss this on the other thread?

(which you are on)

Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?

Are there any scriptures that declare one must believe in the trinity doctrine to gain salvation? Nice signature line!

www.christianityboard.com

 

[GodsGrace]

Polycarp's theology was trinitarian, and Ignatius was a Valentinian.

Valentinianism was one of the major Gnostic Christian movements. Founded by Valentinus (b. c. 100 CE – d. c. 165 CE)[1] in the 2nd century, its influence spread widely, not just within the Roman Empire but also from northwest Africa to Egypt through to Asia Minor and Syria in the east.[2] Later in the movement's history, it broke into Eastern and a Western schools.[further explanation needed] The Valentinian movement remained active until the 4th century, declining after Emperor Theodosius I issued the Edict of Thessalonica in 380, which established Nicene Christianity as the state religion of the Roman Empire.[3]

No evidence exists that Valentinus was labeled a heretic during his lifetime. Irenaeus of Lyons, who was the first patristic source to describe Valentinus's teachings—though likely incompletely and with a bias toward the time's proto-orthodox Christianity—did not finish his apologetic work Against Heresies until the latter 2nd century, likely sometime after Valentinus's death.[4][5][6] The rapid growth of the Valentinian Gnostic movement—named eponymously after Valentinus—after his death prompted early Christian thought leaders, such as Irenaeus and later Hippolytus of Rome, to write apologetic works against Valentinus and Valentinianism, which conflicted with proto-orthodox theology.[5] Because the proto-orthodox camp's leadership encouraged the destruction of Gnostic texts writ large, most textual evidence regarding Valentinian theology and practice comes from its critics—particularly Irenaeus, who was highly focused on refuting Valentinianism.[7]


You stated that Ignatius of Antioch was Valentinian.
Which is nowhere to be found in history, first of all.

Second, Valentinius was born in 110AD approx.
Ignatius died in 110AD apporx.

Ignatius could not have been a Valentiniun because he died when V was 10 years old.

 

[MonoBiblical]

I don't know what a Valentinian is.

No more. You don't want to discuss Early Church History.

 

[GodsGrace]

There are myths surrounding Paul.

Are you saying Ben Franklin wasn't a Christian?

Now we have to discuss Ben Franklin?

Did he believe Jesus is God?
Did he believe in the trinity?
Did he believe in the literal, physical resurrection of Jesus?

Then yes.
Otherwise No.

 

[MonoBiblical]

You stated that Ignatius of Antioch was Valentinian.
Which is nowhere to be found in history, first of all.

Second, Valentinius was born in 110AD approx.
Ignatius died in 110AD apporx.

And Philo is pre-Valentinus. This is another of Orthodox crox.

 

[GodsGrace]

No more. You don't want to discuss Early Church History.

I don't know EVERYTHING about early church history Mono.
Maybe you do, even though you don't accept it.

But what I DO state, I'm absolutely sure of.

 

[GodsGrace]

And Philo is pre-Valentinus. This is another of Orthodox crox.

Now Philo.

OK.
This conversation is over.

You have an agenda,,,and I'm trying to have a conversation.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I believe it might have been you....I wasn’t referring to renegade sects...I was referring to what the church was before the schism. The Orthodox churches claim to be “Catholic”...so, who said that they weren’t? They have all the trappings of the Roman church...the robes and the statues and icons. Their rituals and beliefs are very similar....probably more cultural differences if anything. The most glaring difference is the authority of the pope....why is that do you think?

The Orthodox have Apostolic Succession – just like the Catholic Church. That’s why there are so many similarities.
As for the “cultural” differences – they are VERY similar to the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church.

MOST anti-Catholics like yourself are ignorant of the fact that there are over 20 Liturgical Rites within the Catholic Church. The Wester Church is the “Roman” Catholic Church.

Please educate yourself . . .

Let’s have a good look at the Didache and see why you hold that up as proof of your primacy as a Christian religion instead of the Bible.....

Ummm – WHERE in the Bible does it say that Jesus and Satan are “brothers”??
That the Christ is a Created Being??
The Holy Spirit is a force, not God??

The ECF’s whom you quote, were said to be contemporaries of some of the apostles. Thus, they should have been familiar with apostolic teachings. Regarding what those men wrote, The New Encyclopædia Britannica says...

“Taken as a whole the writings of the Apostolic Fathers are more valuable historically than any other Christian literature outside the New Testament.”⁠

If the apostles taught the Trinity doctrine, then those Apostolic Fathers should have taught it too. It should have been prominent in their teaching, since nothing was more important than telling people who God is. So did they teach the Trinity doctrine?

The Apostles DID teach that the Son (Jesus) is God (John 1:1, John 1:14 John 1:3, John 10:30-33, John 20:28, Col. 1:15-17, Heb. 1:8, 2 Pet. 1:1, Revelation 22:13)

The Didache deals with things people would need to know to become Christians, and includes the following confession of faith in the form of a prayer....

“We thank you, Holy Father, for your holy Name which you have made to dwell in our hearts; and for the knowledge and faith and immortality which you have made known to us through Jesus your Servant. Glory to you forever! You, Almighty Master, created everything for your Name’s sake . . . And to us you have graciously given spiritual food and drink, and life eternal through Jesus your Servant.”⁠

There is no Trinity in this. Can Jesus be a “servant” of God if he is God already? (Acts 4:27; 30)

Because Jesus, in His humanity, serves God.

He is BOTH God AND man.

In “The Influence of Greek Ideas on Christianity”, author Edwin Hatch quotes the foregoing passage and then says.....
“The Didache ....In its 7th chapter, it prescribes baptism “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” the same words Jesus used at Matt 28:19. But it says nothing about the three being equal in eternity, power, position, and wisdom.“

Where is the trinity in this?
In his book, this author Edwin Hatch says.....
“In the original sphere of Christianity there does not appear to have been any great advance upon these simple conceptions. The doctrine upon which stress was laid was, that God is, that He is one, that He is almighty and everlasting, that He made the world, that His mercy is over all His works. There was no taste for metaphysical discussion.”

⁠I don’t think the Didache says what the CC claims that it does....

The Trinity is documented in Scripture.

The Father is God
Eph. 4:6, Psalm 68:5, Mal. 2:10, 2 Cor. 1:3-4, John 3:16, John 8:41, 1 Thess. 3:13

The Son is God
Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6, Matt. 4:7, John 1:1, John 1:3, John 8:58, John 10:30, John 14:9, John 20:28, 2 Corinthians 4:4, Phil. 2:6, Col. 2:9, 1 Tim. 3:16, Heb. 1:8, Titus 2:13

The Holy Spirit is God
John 14:16-18, Luke 12:10, 2 Cor. 3:17, 2 Cor. 13:5, John 14:23, Acts 5:3-4

ALSO - complete earthly Authority of the Church to speak for God (Matt. 16:118-19, Matt. 18:15-18), Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15 John. 20:21-23).

You know what is NOT documented?
- Sola Scriptura
- Humans Do Not Possess Immortal Souls
- Only 144,000 Will Enter Heaven
- No Blood Transfusions
- Jesus and Michael the Archangel the Same Person

LOL...if you say so.....you can believe whatever your church tells you.....it’s what you want to believe and I understand what it would mean to admit that it’s been wrong since it’s questionable inception. It bears all the character of pagan Rome with a thin veneer of Christianity.....very easily exposed. (“By their fruits”)

I believe it because it is Scripturally and historically correct . . .

Russell never claimed to be a prophet...neither do the brothers who oversee our world wide brotherhood. All are imperfect men, just like the apostles were...they make mistakes like we all do....
So right off the bat, you proclaim a falsehood. We have gone back to the simplicity of the original with no bosses...only overseers who are shepherds....no one is paid to do the Lord’s work. No charges for weddings or funerals and we refuse to practice infant baptism because it is simply not a matter of sprinkling water on a baby’s head and the empty promises of so called “God parents”. Empty rituals have no place in Christianity.

Towards the latter part of the 1800’s, was something called “the great awakening”...and since your church was never a part of that awakening, but the actual perpetrators of the coma that the whole of Christendom was under, it affected only those called to question the teaching of an impotent church system, pretending to be imitators of Christ, but teaching things that Christ never did, whilst being part of the influence on monarchs and leaders of powerful nations, and taking full advantage of the position they were placed in. Becoming a clergyman was a career choice, not an office of service to God and his Christ. It was a way to make a living by doing very little.

First of all – even ONE false prophecy makes a FALSE church. Since Christ is the HEAD of the Church (Col. 1:18,1 Cor. 12:27 ) – it cannot make false prophecies.

Here are just a FEW of the FALSE prophecies of the JW sect . . .
- "The end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble" (WT Reprints, 1-1-1894, 1605
- "Our Lord is now present, since October 1874 AD" (Studies, Vol. 4, 1897 edition, 621).
- "The six great 1000-year days beginning with Adam are ended, and that the great 7th day, the 1000 years of Christ’s reign began in 1873" (Studies, Vol. 2, p. 2 of foreword).
- "Scriptures . . . prove that the Lord’s Second Advent occurred in the fall of 1874" (Studies, Vol. 7, 68).
- "Therefore, we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the faithful prophets of old" (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 89).

YIKES . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

continued . . .

Where did that come from? Certainly not from JW’s.
We believe that Jesus is what he himself said he was......” the son of God” (John 10:31-36)....not once in any passage of Scripture did Jesus say that he was an equal deity with his God and Father.

Does satan have brothers? Yes he does, in the myriads of angels who joined him in rebellion.

Then it would stand to reason that if God had a son – He would be divine Himself. You would ALSO have to believe that Satan is ALSO God. Is that what you actually believe??

And if Jesus is NOT God, but a lower “god” – then you JWs have violated the 1st Commandment forbidding multiple gods. Then it would stand to reason that if God had a son – He would be divine Himself. You would ALSO have to believe that Satan is ALSO God. Is that what you actually believe??

And if Jesus is NOT God, but a lower “god” – then you JWs have violated the 1st Commandment forbidding multiple gods . . .

Jesus is a unique “son of God” because he alone was the first and only direct creation of his Father, fulfilling the meaning of “monogenes”....”only begotten”. (Rev 3:14) “Monogenes theos” means “only begotten god”, so if you can tell me how God can be “begotten” in the biblical sense of the word, I’m all ears. But it has to come from the Scriptures, not from outside of them. To be “begotten” means to to have a ‘begetter’ who existed first and produced the “begotten” as his progeny. A Father and son cannot be the same person and no Scripture says so.

No, we have had only one Bible prophesy.....and we got the timing wrong...you learn from your mistakes and we should have heeded Matt 24:37-39....But, since even the apostles got the timing wrong, we don’t feel so bad. (Acts 1:6)

FIRST of all – this verse doesn’t imply that the Apostles got anything “wrong” They were simply asking a question because they didn’t know.

Finally – they had NOT yet been given the power to prophesy. That would make sects like the Jehovah’s Witnesses just as WRONG as the pre-Pentecost Apostles . .

LOL...there were no clergy in first century Christianity.....no hierarchy....no popes.... just brothers in equal standing assigned responsibilities in the congregation. There were no men in distinctive garb and funny hats with expensive robes sitting on earthly thrones.....where do you get the idea that this was “Christianity”?

Acts 1:20 says –
'Let his days be few; and let another take his office.'

The Greek word for "office" is actually Episkopay, which means Bishopric.

Paul speaks of his priestly service
In Rom 15:15-16, Paul uses the word “Hierurgeo”, which is the verb form of the Greek “Hierus” (priests) – the SAME word used for “priest” throughout the NT and Septuagint.

Rom 15:15-16
But on some points I have written to you very boldly by way of reminder, because of the grace given me by God to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the PRIESTLY service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

The KJV translates this word incorrectly as “Minister” because of an obvious anti-Priest Protestant agenda.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Again FWIW...I will address your accusations....

You said that...”MOST anti-Catholics like yourself are ignorant of the fact that there are over 20 Liturgical Rites within the Catholic Church. The Wester Church is the “Roman” Catholic Church.”

Since when was Christianity identified by nationality, where each “rite” was the sole possession of the ones who geographically claimed the rite as their own? I cannot find that excuse for disunity in any passage of the Bible. Culture was not to be an excuse to make Christianity fit the culture of any nation, nor to adopt is pagan practices and pass them off as “Christian” holy days......but to lead the people of all nations, in spite of cultural “norms” into one body of believers....all in agreement.

When addressing Christians, all the congregations were given the same direction and knowledge.

1 Cor 1:10 seems to be missing in Christendom....in response to the formation of factions within the church, Paul wrote...
“Brethren, I exhort you in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to be in full agreement with one another and not permit any divisions to arise among you. Be perfectly united in mind and purpose.” (New Catholic Bible)

I have to ask, where is this Catholic unity.....and what divided your church?
Which “rite” is the “rite” one?

Please educate yourself . . .

I will if you will....your indoctrination is complete and nothing anyone says will dissuade you....that is your choice, but you will never be able to plead ignorance. (Matt 7:21-23)

Ummm – WHERE in the Bible does it say that Jesus and Satan are “brothers”??

It doesn’t...we do not believe that satan and Jesus are “brothers”. Who told you that?
Misinformation is rife in your posts. Perhaps you are visiting hate sites?
Are we allowed to quote things from Catholic hate sites to you?

I’d rather refer to established history and to Catholic Bibles to support my posts....because Catholic people can’t argue with them.

Do you really believe everything you hear? The Jews made the same mistake about Jesus. (John 15:18-21)
Christians would be hated for being Christ like, not for perpetrating atrocities and cosying up to the political system. What does being “no part of the world” mean? (John 18:36)

That the Christ is a Created Being??

Rev 3:14....Douay...Jesus is “the Amen” as well as “the faithful and true witness”
“And to the angel of the church of Laodicea, write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, who is the beginning of the creation of God”.

It also says in verse 12 of that chapter....
“He that shall overcome, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God; and he shall go out no more; and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and my new name.”

Four times in that one verse Jesus, (who had returned to heaven when the Revelation was given’, calls his Father “my God”...please tell me how God can worship an equal part of himself even in heaven? I will await your answer....will I hear *crickets*...?

And then explain how God gives himself a “new name” when Scripture tells us that he has only one distinctive name. (Psalm 83:18 KJV)

 

[Aunty Jane]

The Holy Spirit is a force, not God??

The Holy Spirit is said to be the administration of God’s Power, which is why it can “fill people”...
Acts 2:1-3 NCB...
“When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all assembled together in one place. Suddenly, there came from heaven a sound similar to that of a violent wind, and it filled the entire house in which they were sitting. Then there appeared to them tongues as of fire, which separated and came to rest on each one of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in different languages, as the Spirit enabled them to do so.”

What did God’s spirit “enable them to do”? And what else were they enabled to do?
Heal the sick and raise the dead...
When Jesus was baptized and received the Holy Spirit, what was he empowered to do?
If he was God he would not have needed the other part of himself to enable him to perform miracles....and yet, there are no miracles of Jesus recorded before his baptism....turning water to wine at a wedding feast was his first miracle. (John 2:11)

God’s spirit was said to be administered in measured amounts, such as when Moses was leading the nation of Israel after their liberation from slavery in Egypt.
Feeling overwhelmed with responsibility for the people and their needs, Moses cried out to God....“I cannot carry this entire people by myself; they are too burdensome for me. If this is the way that you are going to treat me, and if I have found favor in your sight, then please put me to death right now so I do not have to keep looking upon my misery.” But the Lord said to Moses, “Bring me seventy men from among the elders of Israel whom you know to be elders and leaders of the people. Bring them to the tent of meeting, and have them stand there with yourself. I will come down and speak to you there. I will take some of the Spirit that is upon you and put it upon them. They will carry the burden of the people with you, so that you do not have to carry it alone.” (Numbers 11:14-17....NCB)

How did Jehovah respond? He appointed “seventy of the older men of Israel” and said that he would take some of the spirit that was on Moses, and divide it among his 70 helpers. Can this describe a person?
Can you receive “some” of a person?

Why is the Holy Spirit called a “He”?
Greek uses male pronouns when speaking of the “Paraclete” (helper, holy spirit) which is a masculine noun and requires masculine pronouns.....if you ever learned French at school, you will understand male and female nouns in such languages, which in reality have no literal gender. It’s a grammar issue.

Because Jesus, in His humanity, serves God.

He is BOTH God AND man.

When the Bible calls Jesus “God’s holy servant” (Acts 4:27, 30) you will have to explain how God can be his own servant.
How he can be his own “High Priest”....and also his own “apostle”....(Heb 3:1)

You know what is NOT documented?
- Sola Scriptura
- Humans Do Not Possess Immortal Souls
- Only 144,000 Will Enter Heaven
- No Blood Transfusions
- Jesus and Michael the Archangel the Same Person

Sorry, but space will prevent me from showing you how wrong those assumptions of the church are...they are all entirely biblical.....although the last one is a belief rather than a doctrine because there is no clear statement regarding that distinct possibility....but Christendom doesn’t let that stop them from believing so many things that do not have clear statements.....so how can they condemn us?

I believe it because it is Scripturally and historically correct . . .

Then you haven’t studied either Scripture or history....

First of all – even ONE false prophecy makes a FALSE church. Since Christ is the HEAD of the Church (Col. 1:18,1 Cor. 12:27 ) – it cannot make false prophecies.

Here are just a FEW of the FALSE prophecies of the JW sect . . .
- "The end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble" (WT Reprints, 1-1-1894, 1605
- "Our Lord is now present, since October 1874 AD" (Studies, Vol. 4, 1897 edition, 621).
- "The six great 1000-year days beginning with Adam are ended, and that the great 7th day, the 1000 years of Christ’s reign began in 1873" (Studies, Vol. 2, p. 2 of foreword).
- "Scriptures . . . prove that the Lord’s Second Advent occurred in the fall of 1874" (Studies, Vol. 7, 68).
- "Therefore, we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the faithful prophets of old" (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 89).

YIKES . . .

Yikes indeed...where did you dig those up ?
I guess you don’t know that we are great believers in progressive revelation of truth, just as it was in the first century, God revealed things on a “need to know” basis.
He highlighted this fact in Prov 4:18-19...
“The path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, which increases in brightness to the fullness of day. But the way of the wicked is like deep darkness,and they cannot even see what they have stumbled over.” (NCB)

We expect to progress in our knowledge and understanding as the time draws near for the coming judgment....we are not stuck in centuries old lies with no way to explain them.....still grinding away at those false beliefs even though they cannot be substantiated in Scripture. Any wonder your church balks at sola scriptura! Not a single doctrine would stand if it was solely based on the Bible.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Then it would stand to reason that if God had a son – He would be divine Himself. You would ALSO have to believe that Satan is ALSO God. Is that what you actually believe??

Please learn the difference between “divinity” and “deity”...
If God can call humans and angels “gods” (theos) it stands to reason that “theos” means more that “God” with a capital “G”. Read John 10:31-33.
God himself calls human judges in Israel “gods” (small “g”) because it also carried the meaning of ones divinely authorised...as those human judges were...and as Jesus was....and as the apostles came to be.

And since satan is called “theos” in 2 Cor 4:4, it is clear that satan is not “God”, but as it says “the god of this world”. Do we doubt that?
Jesus never once usurped his Father’s position....or put himself on equal footing. (John 14:28)

And if Jesus is NOT God, but a lower “god” – then you JWs have violated the 1st Commandment forbidding multiple gods. Then it would stand to reason that if God had a son – He would be divine Himself. You would ALSO have to believe that Satan is ALSO God. Is that what you actually believe??

Wow!...we actually translate the verses accurately and portray Jesus as he himself spoke to his disciples, understanding that Jesus was the divine “son of God”, but not deity requiring their worship....so we do nothing of the sort....Christendom has three gods that they squeeze into one entity so that no one will accuse them of polytheism....God is not fooled for a moment, as to whom is breaking the first commandment.

FIRST of all – this verse doesn’t imply that the Apostles got anything “wrong” They were simply asking a question because they didn’t know.

Of course it does....they got the timing wrong because it was not yet God’s time to reveal it. They knew what Jesus had told them, but it had not yet penetrated their Jewish mindset. They were told to wait in Jerusalem for the promisd Holy Spirit, when all would be revealed to them....and with this powerful outpouring, it left them in no doubt.

Finally – they had NOT yet been given the power to prophesy. That would make sects like the Jehovah’s Witnesses just as WRONG as the pre-Pentecost Apostles . .

I don’t even know what that is supposed to mean....but the power to prophesy was given at Pentecost, as well as the other gifts. Yet Paul indicated that they were given for a time and a reason.
After the apostles died, the gifts died with them.....they were no longer needed because Christians had to develop stronger reliance on “faith hope and love”, rather than the performance of miracles....things that impress spiritual babies.....but they did provide a powerful foregleam for the future.

It wasn’t until I fully investigated the teachings of Jehovah’s Witnesses with my own Bible, that my eyes were opened to a truth that had eluded me all my life....finding that diamond in a hug pile of broken glass was the best thing that ever happened to me.....the truth is very liberating, not stifling....and it cannot and should not be gagged.
No one has anything to fear from the truth.....because no one can come to the son without permission from his Father. (John 6:44, 65)

 

[Marymog]

Great post!
Indeed all true.
It's practically common sense...even with no knowledge of history.

Some complain about a church divided....
While they belong to a sect that has caused the division.

PS
To say nothing of the fact thatvit cost about a year's wage to have a personal bible....only the very wealthy could even afford one.

Oh, the wonders of reality....

Hi GG,

Unfortunately, most Christians don't realize that historical fact (a year's wages to have a bible) AND the average person couldn't even read which means Scripture was especially true for those living back then; So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Yes, the wonders of reality for @Aunty Jane

Hope your thanksgiving was great.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

Really? If you think that post is without fantasy, I’ll just leave it there for others to evaluate....what a waste of time that was...

Sorry, but your accusations are invented by our opposers, devoid of any factual knowledge about who we are, loaded with hear-say, and amount to absolute fantasy.....cringeworthy actually....but if you are happy to believe what you hear...that is your choice.

Try to remember what happened in Jesus’ day and see how history repeats......you just can’t see it....it’s a “blindness” that Paul spoke about. (2 Cor 4:3-4)

The RCC has so much blood on its hands.....as does the rest of Christendom who support the bloodshed of their nations, even justifying the killing of their own brethren on the opposing side......Is that “Christianity”?
Not the one that Jesus promoted. (Matt 5:43-44; 1 John 4:20-21)

Hey AJ,

Yes, my post was without fantasy. My post is EXACTLY what was happening in 1st century Christianity AND is still happening today. If you knew Scripture and Christian history, you would know that. Why do you think we have 1,000 different Protestant denominations? Because of exactly what happened in my "devoid of factual knowledge post". A Catholic man broke away from the CC because he disagreed with its doctrines/interpretation of Scripture and started his own church. A whole bunch of people, like you, followed that man to the new church. Another man or two broke away from that church because they disagreed with its doctrines/interpretation of Scripture and started their own church. And so on and so on for the last 500 years of the Protestant Revolution. That is Scriptural and historical FACT and that is what my post was about. You either didn't read it, or you couldn't comprehend it.

I agree with you. History does repeat itself. The Protestant Revolution, of which YOU are a part of, began a MASSIVE blindness of Christians which was led by false preachers including the man you follow. You failed to read (or comprehend) the entire passage. That passage isn't speaking of the blindness of believers. Paul is speaking about the blindness of non-believers. You thought by referencing that post you had a 'gotcha' moment on lil ol Marymog. You failed. Paul was speaking of non-believers. Here is the passage in context; But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. Nice try though. You should learn scripture before debating Scripture and twisting it to your own destruction.

No! The killing of our own brethren is not justified, and it is not Christianity. WOW, we agree on something HOWEVER Your Anti-Catholic bias shines through with your statement. Instead of saying that Protestants AND the Catholic Church has so much blood on their hands you said specifically that the RCC has blood on their hands. Can you not just be honest and tell the truth about our Christian history? Protestants have ALSO killed their own brethren AND Catholics. All are guilty.

With that said I hope you had a great thanksgiving.........Mary

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yes, my post was without fantasy. My post is EXACTLY what was happening in 1st century Christianity AND is still happening today. If you knew Scripture and Christian history, you would know that.

And if you knew what was happening in first century Christianity, you would know that the greatest opposers of Christianity were the Jews...who supposedly worshipped the same God.
“Still happening today”? Absolutely, because the same enemy knows how to sway people who have been entrenched in a certain religion all their lives, and are programmed to stay there.....they are hard to dissuade.

You see, it’s not what you respond to....it’s what you ignore that tells the story...

Why do you think we have 1,000 different Protestant denominations? Because of exactly what happened in my "devoid of factual knowledge post". A Catholic man broke away from the CC because he disagreed with its doctrines/interpretation of Scripture and started his own church. A whole bunch of people, like you, followed that man to the new church. Another man or two broke away from that church because they disagreed with its doctrines/interpretation of Scripture and started their own church. And so on and so on for the last 500 years of the Protestant Revolution. That is Scriptural and historical FACT and that is what my post was about. You either didn't read it, or you couldn't comprehend it.

I’m not sure about the “factual” part of your post....as Martin Luther was not just “a Catholic man”...he was a Catholic priest who had access to God’s word and knew that his church had been corrupted by their own leaders in overstepping the power they wielded over the people whom they deliberately kept in ignorance.
They did not feed them God’s word, but instead, empty ritual and mindless repetition.

I agree with you. History does repeat itself. The Protestant Revolution, of which YOU are a part of, began a MASSIVE blindness of Christians which was led by false preachers including the man you follow. You failed to read (or comprehend) the entire passage. That passage isn't speaking of the blindness of believers. Paul is speaking about the blindness of non-believers. You thought by referencing that post you had a 'gotcha' moment on lil ol Marymog. You failed. Paul was speaking of non-believers. Here is the passage in context; But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. Nice try though. You should learn scripture before debating Scripture and twisting it to your own destruction.

Oh dear...perhaps it is you who needed to actually read and comprehend all of what that scripture said instead of giving it your church’s interpretation.

To whom were Paul and the other apostles sent to preach Christ’s message? Who were their audience?
It was to the Jews first, and then God opened up the gospel to the nations.....through Peter’s experience with Cornelius. Paul was appointed as an “apostle to the nations” whereas the 12 were originally appointed to preach only to their fellow Jews....their audience widened when it was God’s time to include the people of the nations.

So that gives both Jews and gentiles the designation of “unbelievers”. Did the Jews have no knowledge of the true God? Was there an excuse for them to be “unbelievers”?
Who had “blinded” them? The same one who blinds “unbelievers” today. The ones who are so sure that they are not blind....the very ones that Jesus describes in Matt 7:21-23.

No! The killing of our own brethren is not justified, and it is not Christianity. WOW, we agree on something HOWEVER Your Anti-Catholic bias shines through with your statement. Instead of saying that Protestants AND the Catholic Church has so much blood on their hands you said specifically that the RCC has blood on their hands. Can you not just be honest and tell the truth about our Christian history? Protestants have ALSO killed their own brethren AND Catholics. All are guilty.

And if you had bothered to quote all of what I said, you would see that I included all of Christendom who condone bloodshed.
I said....
“The RCC has so much blood on its hands.....as does the rest of Christendom who support the bloodshed of their nations, even justifying the killing of their own brethren on the opposing side......Is that “Christianity”?
Not the one that Jesus promoted. (Matt 5:43-44; 1 John 4:20-21)”

That is what selective quoting does.....the truth gets lost in the justification. What I asked was “is that Christianity?”...and the answer was...”not the one that Jesus promoted”.....was that an inaccurate statement?
According to just those two Scriptures, does Jesus condone the bloodshed?

With that said I hope you had a great thanksgiving.........Mary

Sorry....what? I am an Australian....what has “Thanksgiving” got to do with those who are not American?

You really do get lost in your traditions, imagining that the world is somehow...”American” in all its practices. You got us with Halloween, a relatively new adoption in my country and a wildly successful commercial celebration of all things gruesome and evil....and all the commercial rubbish will continue with the annual circus that is Christmas....soon to descend on a world increasingly struggling to provide food and shelter for their families.
How come santa (an anagram of satan) is so generous to the rich kids but neglects the poor ones? And how come that time of year is notorious with law enforcement officers as the most connected with drunkenness and domestic violence? Where are the happy families?....Fragmented and fighting over who gets the kids at Christmas...often with alcohol fuelled animosity.

Do all the pretty trees and lights make the world’s problems go away?...or has this celebration become an expensive burden with an emotional connection that makes it hard for people not to celebrate it? Where in the Bible will I find a single birthday celebration of any one of God’s ancient servants? The date of Christ’s birth is not mentioned, because Jews did not celebrate birthdays....it was just another pagan adoption.

Don’t get me started....”hell” for many people is right here on earth...

 

[Jack]

Don’t get me started....”hell” for many people is right here on earth...

Boy, are MILLIONS of JW's gonna be disappointed!

Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.