No Escape : From Hell

[walter]

Walter,
I don't know what your definiton of DEBATE is
BUT
A friend CAN be a debater of ours.

I could have a debate with you and still be your friend.
@Grailhunter and I do this all the time!

You're conflating a DEBATE
with an ARGUMENT.

I agree.. I consider you my friend because we both love Jesus and his Father.. And you respect the words in the Bible.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Are you saying that the first Christians had a bible to read?
HOW would the early Christians have known they were being taught the word of God?
Did they travel with a bible under their arm?

Wow…out of all that I wrote, this is even a question?

I fear for you…..The first Christians were all Jewish….you knew that..right?…..and they heard God’s word preached in their synagogues from childhood. As I recall, I mentioned Mary, who was from a modest background, and she reacted to Gabriel’s announcement when she visited her cousin Elizabeth, by quoting many Scriptures….did she own her own copies…? I think not, because God’s word was in the form of scrolls back then…lots of them.
Access to God’s word was frequent and continuous just by attending the synagogue.

When Jesus began his ministry he preached in the synagogue too, as he was Jewish. When he chose the Twelve, they too preached in the synagogue. But as Jesus began to show up the Pharisees in their errors, he earned their animosity, and since he was such a persuasive teacher and his ministry was backed up by evident demonstrations of God’s Holy Spirit, they were afraid of the people because he was so well accepted and they had nothing with which to counteract his teachings or his works. So they did what they had always done…they silenced their critic…..but they could not silence the truth.

Since the letters that were written by the apostles began to circulate in the congregations, with much reference to the OT scriptures contained in them, people soon learned that what the apostles taught was solidly based in God’s word. The apostles and those they taught continued to teach that truth for the rest of their lives….none but John made it to the end of the first century when he wrote his Revelation and last three letters. It was after the death of the last apostle John that the weeds began to flourish. Weeds always do well in poor soil.

So your question demonstrates a complete lack of knowledge of first century Christianity….you base all your beliefs on what came once the foretold apostasy was already under way. Nothing quoted by anyone after the first century is included in Scripture for a reason…..the rot had already set in and there was no stopping it.
Like the Jews, the first Christians heard God’s word read aloud in their weekly meeting for worship and instruction, which prepared all to be preachers of God’s word…his message was loud and clear….and it was his message that the disciples took with them out to the people….they didn’t need to carry a Bible. (Acts 5:42; Acts 20:20)

It was the prophet Daniel who pointed to our day as the time for “knowledge to become abundant”….”the time of the end”. Do you believe that we are in the ”last days“ right now GG…..and if so what are these the “last days“ of?

This is why the message today is so much more important. This is a judgment period, “just like the days of Noah” Jesus said. (Matt 24:37-39) How many survived the flood…..only 8 people out of the whole world’s population back then.

Can you tell me what things happening today, mirror “the days of Noah”? Can you see the comparison?
How many were beating their fists on the side of the ark as the waters rose, pleading to get in, but they had ample opportunity whist Noah was building the ark and telling people why he was doing so…..it wasn’t Noah who closed the door on the ones who ridiculed him…..

Can you see the parallel of the first century re-enacted in our day?…when the majority have claimed to be part of “the body of Christ”….even though they cannot agree on very much at all?….making “the body” a dismembered mess.

The true “body of Christ” fits the criteria laid down by Paul…..
”Now I urge you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.” (1 Cor 1:10)

One truth…one body…all in agreement.

Does that describe Christendom at all? Has it ever described “the church” that continued to be corrupted for the whole 2000 years since Jesus walked the earth? If Jesus came back tomorrow, who would he recognize as his true disciples? Who are “doing the will” of God, as opposed to the will of man?

I believe we will all find out, very soon…..won’t it be interesting to see who passes the test and who fails?
There are only “sheep” and “goats” in the world at judgment time, so we are all either one or the other…..we may be convinced that we are “sheep”…..because this is what Jesus indicates. Many excuses will be be offered, but they will be totally rejected. (Matt 7:21-23)

 

[TazzJazz]

YOU are NOT following orthodox Christianity and it's been shown to you why ad nauseum.

I'm sorry, GodsGrace, but you don't seem to understand....

Orthodox teachings, principles, and behavior were already settled in the 1st Century, with Jesus and His Apostles. Not in the 4th Century, with the establishment of Catholicism.

The Apostle Paul told the Ephesian overseers in Acts 20:29, "I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among you yourselves men will speak twisted things....."

Notice, Paul didn't say '1,000 years later'. But quickly, "after [his] going away"; he was killed about 4 or 5 years later.

In fact, the Apostle Peter said that, at that moment, people were "twisting" their writings, "as they do also the rest of the scriptures, to their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16) And the Apostle John mentioned there was a resistance to his leadership (3 John 9); he further wrote, "even now there have come to be many antichrists." -- 1 John 2:18.

So from these Scriptures, we know apostate teachings & behaviors infiltrated the Christian congregation quickly.... it had already reared its ugly head while the apostles were still alive!

So we who are trying to follow Christ, we should ask ourselves: what is Christian orthodoxy? It boils down to "adhering to Christ's teachings, and following His example."

Ponder this: Did Jesus Christ ever tell His followers to kill someone? No. Orthodox behavior would be to love, both "brothers" and "enemies". (John 13:34: Matt. 5:44) [And Jesus knew where such self-sacrificing love would lead -- that His disciples' loving others would eventually put them at odds with the world's divisions and hatred. That's why He said to be "not of / no part of" this world. - John 15:19]
Unfortunately, the vast majority of religions in Christendom has supported & joined the world in it's conflicts and wars, even spawning a few themselves. That's not Christ-like behavior, is it? Its actually hypocritical.

One thing I know though: Jehovah paid a heavy price for humans, sending His Firstborn Son to die for us...and Jesus was willing to do it! (John 3:16) So when God's Day comes & this world goes down, Jesus will resurrect all kinds of people! -- Acts 24:15
People, but not organizations.

 

[GodsGrace]

Wow…out of all that I wrote, this is even a question?

Yes, This IS a question for you.

YOU said that the early Christians knew they were being deceived . words to that effect.

I asked you:
HOW could the early Christians KNOW they were being deceived IF they did not have bibles they could read?

It's a very valid question because it shows your statement to be pretty nonsensical.
The early Christians HEARD and OBEYED those that were teaching them.

They did NOT have a bible with which to examine if what they were being told was true.

THIS IS WHY it was important that THE CHURCH keep heresy out of the church.
Which it did - painstakingly...which is why Christianity is still being practiced TODAY.

The JWs were NOT invented yet in the first or second century and were not until the 19th century.

The ONLY church in the 1st century was the church that became known as the CC.

But your hatred of the CC keeps you from knowing this.

So, yes, I'd like to know FROM YOU how YOU think the first Christians knew they were being lied to if they had no bible with which to investigate what they were being told.

Thanks.

I fear for you…..The first Christians were all Jewish….you knew that..right?…..and they heard God’s word preached in their synagogues from childhood. As I recall, I mentioned Mary, who was from a modest background, and she reacted to Gabriel’s announcement when she visited her cousin Elizabeth, by quoting many Scriptures….did she own her own copies…? I think not, because God’s word was in the form of scrolls back then…lots of them.
Access to God’s word was frequent and continuous just by attending the synagogue.

When Jesus began his ministry he preached in the synagogue too, as he was Jewish. When he chose the Twelve, they too preached in the synagogue. But as Jesus began to show up the Pharisees in their errors, he earned their animosity, and since he was such a persuasive teacher and his ministry was backed up by evident demonstrations of God’s Holy Spirit, they were afraid of the people because he was so well accepted and they had nothing with which to counteract his teachings or his works. So they did what they had always done…they silenced their critic…..but they could not silence the truth.

Since the letters that were written by the apostles began to circulate in the congregations, with much reference to the OT scriptures contained in them, people soon learned that what the apostles taught was solidly based in God’s word. The apostles and those they taught continued to teach that truth for the rest of their lives….none but John made it to the end of the first century when he wrote his Revelation and last three letters. It was after the death of the last apostle John that the weeds began to flourish. Weeds always do well in poor soil.

How interesting.
So you admit that the Apostles tuaght others.
This is a good step forward.

So why do you NOT accept what those that the Apostles taught actually believed?

There are many, but here are a few:


Polycarp (AD 69-155) was the bishop at the church in Smyrna. Irenaeus tells us Polycarp was a disciple of John the Apostle. In his Letter to the Philippians he says,

Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal high priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth...and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead.1

Ignatius (AD 50-117) was the bishop at the church in Antioch and also a disciple of John the Apostle. He wrote a series of letters to various churches on his way to Rome, where he was to be martyred. He writes,

Ignatius, who is also Theophorus, unto her which hath been blessed in greatness through the plentitude of God the Father; which hath been foreordained before the ages to be for ever unto abiding and unchangeable glory, united and elect in a true passion, by the will of the Father and of Jesus Christ our God; even unto the church which is in Ephesus [of Asia], worthy of all felicitation: abundant greeting in Christ Jesus and in blameless joy.2

Being as you are imitators of God, once you took on new life through the blood of God you completed perfectly the task so natural to you.3

There is only one physician, who is both flesh and spirit, born and unborn, God in man, true life in death, both from Mary and from God, first subject to suffering and then beyond it, Jesus Christ our Lord.4

For our God, Jesus the Christ, was conceived by Mary according to God’s plan, both from the seed of David and of the Holy Spirit.5

Consequently all magic and every kind of spell were dissolved, the ignorance so characteristic of wickedness vanished, and the ancient kingdom was abolished when God appeared in human form to bring the newness of eternal life.6

For our God Jesus Christ is more visible now that he is in the Father.7

I glorify Jesus Christ, the God who made you so wise, for I observed that you are established in an unshakable faith, having been nailed, as it were, to the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ.8

Wait expectantly for the one who is above time: the Eternal, the Invisible, who for our sake became visible; the Intangible, the Unsuffering, who for our sake suffered, who for our sake endured in every way.9

part 1 of 3

 

[GodsGrace]

part 2 of 3

@Aunty Jane


Justin Martyr (AD 100-165) was an Christian apologist of the second century.

And that Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God, and appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at the bush, so also was manifested at the judgment executed on Sodom, has been demonstrated fully by what has been said.10

Permit me first to recount the prophecies, which I wish to do in order to prove that Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts.11

Therefore these words testify explicitly that He [Jesus] is witnessed to by Him [the Father] who established these things, as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ.12

The Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God. And of old He appeared in the shape of fire and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and to the other prophets; but now in the times of your reign, having, as we before said, become Man by a virgin....13

For if you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God.14

Melito of Sardis (died c. AD 180) was the bishop of the church in Sardis.

He that hung up the earth in space was Himself hanged up; He that fixed the heavens was fixed with nails; He that bore up the earth was born up on a tree; the Lord of all was subjected to ignominy in a naked body—God put to death! ... n order that He might not be seen, the luminaries turned away, and the day became darkened—because they slew God, who hung naked on the tree.... This is He who made the heaven and the earth, and in the beginning, together with the Father, fashioned man; who was announced by means of the law and the prophets; who put on a bodily form in the Virgin; who was hanged upon the tree; who was buried in the earth; who rose from the place of the dead, and ascended to the height of heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father.15

Irenaeus of Lyons (AD 130-202) was bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul, which is now Lyons, France. Irenaeus was born in Smyrna in Asia Minor, where he studied under bishop Polycarp, who in turn had been a disciple of John the Apostle.

For I have shown from the Scriptures, that no one of the sons of Adam is as to everything, and absolutely, called God, or named Lord. But that He is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles, and by the Spirit Himself, may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth. Now, the Scriptures would not have testified these things of Him, if, like others, He had been a mere man.... He is the holy Lord, the Wonderful, the Counselor, the Beautiful in appearance, and the Mighty God, coming on the clouds as the Judge of all men;—all these things did the Scriptures prophesy of Him.16

He received testimony from all that He was very man, and that He was very God, from the Father, from the Spirit, from angels, from the creation itself, from men, from apostate spirits and demons.17

Christ Jesus [is] our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father.18

Christ Himself, therefore, together with the Father, is the God of the living, who spoke to Moses, and who was also manifested to the fathers.19

Carefully, then, has the Holy Ghost pointed out, by what has been said, His birth from a virgin, and His essence, that He is God (for the name Emmanuel indicates this). And He shows that He is a man.... [W]e should not understand that He is a mere man only, nor, on the other hand, from the name Emmanuel, should suspect Him to be God without flesh.20

 

[GodsGrace]

part 3 of 3

@Aunty Jane


Clement of Alexandria (AD 150-215) was another early church father. He wrote around AD 200. He writes,

This Word, then, the Christ, the cause of both our being at first (for He was in God) and of our well-being, this very Word has now appeared as man, He alone being both, both God and man—the Author of all blessings to us; by whom we, being taught to live well, are sent on our way to life eternal.... The Word, who in the beginning bestowed on us life as Creator when He formed us, taught us to live well when He appeared as our Teacher that as God He might afterwards conduct us to the life which never ends.21

For it was not without divine care that so great a work was accomplished in so brief a space by the Lord, who, though despised as to appearance, was in reality adored, the expiator of sin, the Savior, the clement, the Divine Word, He that is truly most manifest Deity, He that is made equal to the Lord of the universe; because He was His Son, and the Word was in God....2

Hippolytus of Rome (AD 170-235) was a third-century theologian. He was a disciple of Irenaeus, who was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John. He writes,

The Logos alone of this God is from God himself; wherefore also the Logos is God, being the substance of God.27

For, lo, the Only-begotten entered, a soul among souls, God the Word with a (human) soul. For His body lay in the tomb, not emptied of divinity; but as, while in Hades, He was in essential being with His Father, so was He also in the body and in Hades. For the Son is not contained in space, just as the Father; and He comprehends all things in Himself.28

For all, the righteous and the unrighteous alike, shall be brought before God the Word.29

Let us believe then, dear brethren, according to the tradition of the apostles, that God the Word came down from heaven, (and entered) into the holy Virgin Mary, in order that, taking the flesh from her, and assuming also a human, by which I mean a rational soul, and becoming thus all that man is with the exception of sin, He might save fallen man, and confer immortality on men who believe on His name.... He now, coming forth into the world, was manifested as God in a body, coming forth too as a perfect man. For it was not in mere appearance or by conversion, but in truth, that He became man. Thus then, too, though demonstrated as God, He does not refuse the conditions proper to Him as man, since He hungers and toils and thirsts in weariness, and flees in fear, and prays in trouble. And He who as God has a sleepless nature, slumbers on a pillow.30

Origen (AD 185-254) was another early Christian theologian. He writes,

Jesus Christ...in the last times, divesting Himself (of His glory), became a man, and was incarnate although God, and while made a man remained the God which He was.31

Seeing God the Father is invisible and inseparable from the Son, the Son is not generated from Him by “prolation,” as some suppose. For if the Son be a “prolation” of the Father (the term “prolation” being used to signify such a generation as that of animals or men usually is), then, of necessity, both He who “prolated” and He who was “prolated” are corporeal. For we do not say, as the heretics suppose, that some part of the substance of God was converted into the Son, or that the Son was procreated by the Father out of things non-existent, i.e., beyond His own substance, so that there once was a time when He did not exist.... How, then, can it be asserted that there once was a time when He was not the Son? For that is nothing else than to say that there was once a time when He was not the Truth, nor the Wisdom, nor the Life, although in all these He is judged to be the perfect essence of God the Father; for these things cannot be severed from Him, or even be separated from His essence.32

Wherefore we have always held that God is the Father of His only-begotten Son, who was born indeed of Him, and derives from Him what He is, but without any beginning, not only such as may be measured by any divisions of time, but even that which the mind alone can contemplate within itself, or behold, so to speak, with the naked powers of the understanding.34

But it is monstrous and unlawful to compare God the Father, in the generation of His only-begotten Son, and in the substance of the same, to any man or other living thing engaged in such an act; for we must of necessity hold that there is something exceptional and worthy of God which does not admit of any comparison at all, not merely in things, but which cannot even be conceived by thought or discovered by perception, so that a human mind should be able to apprehend how the unbegotten God is made the Father of the only-begotten Son. Because His generation is as eternal and everlasting as the brilliancy which is produced from the sun. For it is not by receiving the breath of life that He is made a Son, by any outward act, but by His own nature.35

And that you may understand that the omnipotence of Father and Son is one and the same, as God and the Lord are one and the same with the Father, listen to the manner in which John speaks in the Apocalypse: “Thus saith the Lord God, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.” For who else was “He which is to come” than Christ? And as no one ought to be offended, seeing God is the Father, that the Savior is also God; so also, since the Father is called omnipotent, no one ought to be offended that the Son of God is also called omnipotent.36

 

[GodsGrace]

So your question demonstrates a complete lack of knowledge of first century Christianity….you base all your beliefs on what came once the foretold apostasy was already under way. Nothing quoted by anyone after the first century is included in Scripture for a reason…..the rot had already set in and there was no stopping it.
Like the Jews, the first Christians heard God’s word read aloud in their weekly meeting for worship and instruction, which prepared all to be preachers of God’s word…his message was loud and clear….and it was his message that the disciples took with them out to the people….they didn’t need to carry a Bible. (Acts 5:42; Acts 20:20)

It was the prophet Daniel who pointed to our day as the time for “knowledge to become abundant”….”the time of the end”. Do you believe that we are in the ”last days“ right now GG…..and if so what are these the “last days“ of?

This is why the message today is so much more important. This is a judgment period, “just like the days of Noah” Jesus said. (Matt 24:37-39) How many survived the flood…..only 8 people out of the whole world’s population back then.

Can you tell me what things happening today, mirror “the days of Noah”? Can you see the comparison?
How many were beating their fists on the side of the ark as the waters rose, pleading to get in, but they had ample opportunity whist Noah was building the ark and telling people why he was doing so…..it wasn’t Noah who closed the door on the ones who ridiculed him…..

Can you see the parallel of the first century re-enacted in our day?…when the majority have claimed to be part of “the body of Christ”….even though they cannot agree on very much at all?….making “the body” a dismembered mess.

The true “body of Christ” fits the criteria laid down by Paul…..
”Now I urge you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.” (1 Cor 1:10)

One truth…one body…all in agreement.

Does that describe Christendom at all? Has it ever described “the church” that continued to be corrupted for the whole 2000 years since Jesus walked the earth? If Jesus came back tomorrow, who would he recognize as his true disciples? Who are “doing the will” of God, as opposed to the will of man?

I believe we will all find out, very soon…..won’t it be interesting to see who passes the test and who fails?
There are only “sheep” and “goats” in the world at judgment time, so we are all either one or the other…..we may be convinced that we are “sheep”…..because this is what Jesus indicates. Many excuses will be be offered, but they will be totally rejected. (Matt 7:21-23)

The above is not only from the first century.
You really need to learn some history.

I'll tell you who is NOT doing the will of God...
those who divide the church.

John 17:21
21That they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.


This is what Jesus wanted. Did Charles Russell help Jesus to attain this??
Have you?

 

[walter]

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm sorry, GodsGrace, but you don't seem to understand....

Orthodox teachings, principles, and behavior were already settled in the 1st Century, with Jesus and His Apostles. Not in the 4th Century, with the establishment of Catholicism.

Could you please post something authoratative that declares that the CC began in the 4th century?
This is one of the oddest statements I've heard.
Augustine was born at the end of the 4th century and the CC was already establised for hundreds of years by then.


The term "Catholic Church" first appeared in writing around A.D. 107 in a letter from St. Ignatius of Antioch, using the Greek word katholikos (universal) to describe the widespread, unified Church, distinguishing it from smaller groups. While likely used orally before then, this early reference in his Letter to the Smyrnaeans ("Wherever the bishop is, there is the Catholic Church") marks its earliest historical record, becoming common in the 2nd and 3rd centuries to denote the universal body of believers.


The UNITED church was called the Catholic Church.
Same as it is today.

The Apostle Paul told the Ephesian overseers in Acts 20:29, "I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among you yourselves men will speak twisted things....."

Notice, Paul didn't say '1,000 years later'. But quickly, "after [his] going away"; he was killed about 4 or 5 years later.

Your statement is of no value.
Please see above.

In fact, the Apostle Peter said that, at that moment, people were "twisting" their writings, "as they do also the rest of the scriptures, to their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16) And the Apostle John mentioned there was a resistance to his leadership (3 John 9); he further wrote, "even now there have come to be many antichrists." -- 1 John 2:18.

So from these Scriptures, we know apostate teachings & behaviors infiltrated the Christian congregation quickly.... it had already reared its ugly head while the apostles were still alive!

Yes sir,,,you're right.
This is why John said: THEY LEFT US BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT OF US.
1 John 2:19

He was speaking of gnostics.

We're so fortunate that the CC kept heresies out of the Body of Christ!

So we who are trying to follow Christ, we should ask ourselves: what is Christian orthodoxy? It boils down to "adhering to Christ's teachings, and following His example."

Hmmm. So
WHO IS JESUS?
WAS HE RESURRECTED?
DO WE PRACTICE COMMUNION LIKE HE REQUESTED?
DO WE GET BAPTIZED LIKE HE REQUESTED?

By the way,,,God doesn't request...
He demands.

Ponder this: Did Jesus Christ ever tell His followers to kill someone? No. Orthodox behavior would be to love, both "brothers" and "enemies". (John 13:34: Matt. 5:44) [And Jesus knew where such self-sacrificing love would lead -- that His disciples' loving others would eventually put them at odds with the world's divisions and hatred. That's why He said to be "not of / no part of" this world. - John 15:19]
Unfortunately, the vast majority of religions in Christendom has supported & joined the world in it's conflicts and wars, even spawning a few themselves. That's not Christ-like behavior, is it? Its actually hypocritical.

I don't know what you're talking about Tazz.
If you can't address the question at hand...it'll be problematic.

One thing I know though: Jehovah paid a heavy price for humans, sending His Firstborn Son to die for us...and Jesus was willing to do it! (John 3:16) So when God's Day comes & this world goes down, Jesus will resurrect all kinds of people! -- Acts 24:15
People, but not organizations.

Who said anything about an organization?
You're getting threads mixed up.

And Jesus is NOT the First born son.
God only had ONE Son.
And that Son is also GOD.

 

[walter]

Could you please post something authoratative that declares that the CC began in the 4th century?

This does not answer your question but I think it is related to the discussion.

Most faiths from any Century have beliefs and practices, do their beliefs and practices that the CC in the 4th Century match up with the actual words of Jesus or the Apostles recorded in the Bible?

I can explain what I believe and practice, by letting Jesus and the Apostles do all the talking. Many beliefs and practices are explained by Jesus and the Apostles a few times they are not, but in the very many times they are, do they match up with the CC in the 4th century?

 

[walter]

4th century?

Doesn't everyone determine the truth about the 4th Century differently? Myself I like to go with the actual words from Jesus and the Apostles to understand their words on most beliefs and practices.

 

[Aunty Jane]

YOU said that the early Christians knew they were being deceived . words to that effect.

No…I said that the first Christians were taught by the apostles….who were taught by Jesus Christ….who was taught by his Father.
John 7:14-16...
“When the feast was half over, Jesus went up into the temple and began to teach. The Jews were astonished, and they wondered, “How has this man acquired such knowledge when he has never studied?” Jesus answered them, “My teaching is not my own; rather, it comes from him who sent me.” (NCB)

Why did Jesus need to be taught what to teach by his Father, if both of them are God?

There is a chain of command in the Bible….it begins with God and his early worshippers, who are on record in the Hebrew Scriptures.....and then his laws were given to his people, Israel.....and then Bible truths were reinforced by Jesus Christ his son, who imparted that truth to his apostles….and that is where Scripture ends.

To quote what is not Scripture in order to validate “the church’s” doctrines, is like me quoting an expose’ by Dawkins on Catholic doctrine, to you…I don’t believe that the ECF’s were a reasonable source for Scripture, otherwise their writings would have been included in the canon….none of them were.....not even by “the church”....imagine that.

And since the ECF’s closer to the apostolic period didn’t speak English, how do you know that what is translated from the Greek is even accurate? If they messed with Scripture, why wouldn’t they also mess with the writings of the ECF’s to promote their doctrines?

I asked you:
HOW could the early Christians KNOW they were being deceived IF they did not have bibles they could read?

It's a very valid question because it shows your statement to be pretty nonsensical.
The early Christians HEARD and OBEYED those that were teaching them.

The first Christians were not strangers to Yahweh because the Scriptures were read to them in the Synagogue from childhood. Since the apostles freely quoted the Hebrew Scriptures, they were learning more about the God of their forefathers whom the Pharisees had betrayed and silenced. (Matt 23:37-39)...in much the same way as the CC betrayed and silenced the ones they called “heretics”.....but they were the real heretics.
What they preserved was their own lies put to the people as Bible truth.

The JWs were NOT invented yet in the first or second century and were not until the 19th century.

What did God call his ancient people Israel?
Isaiah 43:10-12....Jewish Tanakh...

"You are My witnesses," says the Lord, "and My servant whom I chose," in order that you know and believe Me, and understand that I am He; before Me no god was formed and after Me none shall be.		יאַתֶּ֚ם עֵדַי֙ נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֔ה וְעַבְדִּ֖י אֲשֶׁ֣ר בָּחָ֑רְתִּי לְמַ֣עַן תֵּ֠דְעוּ וְתַֽאֲמִ֨ינוּ לִ֚י וְתָבִ֙ינוּ֙ כִּֽי־אֲנִ֣י ה֔וּא לְפָנַי֙ לֹֽא־נ֣וֹצַר אֵ֔ל וְאַֽחֲרַ֖י לֹ֥א יִֽהְיֶֽה:
11 I, I am the Lord, and besides Me there is no savior.		יאאָֽנֹכִ֥י אָֽנֹכִ֖י יְהֹוָ֑ה וְאֵ֥ין מִבַּלְעָדַ֖י מוֹשִֽׁיעַ:
12 I told and I saved, and I made heard and there was no stranger among you, and you are My witnesses," says the Lord, "and I am God.		יבאָֽנֹכִ֞י הִגַּ֚דְתִּי וְהוֹשַׁ֙עְתִּי֙ וְהִשְׁמַ֔עְתִּי וְאֵ֥ין בָּכֶ֖ם זָ֑ר וְאַתֶּ֥ם עֵדַ֛י נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֖ה וַֽאֲנִי־אֵֽל:

So יְהֹוָ֖ה (Yahweh/Jehovah) has always had his “Witnesses”......we were not “invented”.....the CC was.
Jesus called himself “the Faithful and True Witness”. (Rev 3:14)

ONLY church in the 1st century was the church that became known as the CC.

Who called them “Catholics”?....not God. They were originally, simply called “Christians”.

But your hatred of the CC keeps you from knowing this.

What I hate is lies....and don’t look now, but God hates liars too.....the RCC particularly, took “Christianity” down a very dark path for 1500 years....unchallenged....lies upon lies, passed off as Christian truth.

Thanks to Martin Luther, the Reformation broke that tyranny and freed a lot of people from the more ridiculous Catholic doctrines, but unfortunately they did not purge themselves enough, because the Protesters carried the foundational Catholic beliefs of the trinity, immortality of the soul and hellfire with them. But at least it gave people access to the Bible for themselves.....this was the one thing the RCC didn’t want....exposure of their false religion was sure to follow.

So, yes, I'd like to know FROM YOU how YOU think the first Christians knew they were being lied to if they had no bible with which to investigate what they were being told.

You got that wrong....I didn’t say that. I said that people had no way to check the teachings of a church that kept the Bible out of the hands of anyone but themselves.

“As soon as it got dark, the brethren sent Paul and Silas away to Beroea. Upon their arrival, they immediately went to the Jewish synagogue. The people there were more receptive than those in Thessalonica. They received the word with great eagerness, and they examined the Scriptures every day to check whether these things were so. Many of them became believers, as did a considerable number of influential Greek women and men.” (Acts 17:10-12 NCB)

In the first century the people of Boerea were commended for searching the Scriptures for themselves to see if Paul was teaching them the truth....they must have had access to the Scriptures in order to do that.

So why do you NOT accept what those that the Apostles taught actually believed?

I never said that those whom the apostles taught had reasons not to believe.....it was the ones coming in after the apostolic period, who did the damage....slowly introducing ideas that had no basis in Scripture and denying “sola Scriptura” so that they could get away with it.

There are many, but here are a few:


Polycarp (AD 69-155) was the bishop at the church in Smyrna. Irenaeus tells us Polycarp was a disciple of John the Apostle. In his Letter to the Philippians he says,

Ignatius (AD 50-117) was the bishop at the church in Antioch and also a disciple of John the Apostle. He wrote a series of letters to various churches on his way to Rome, where he was to be martyred. He writes,

It’s after we get away from the first century that the rot really starts to be introduced.
As I said....who translated the words of the EFC’s from Greek to English?

If translators messed up translation of the Bible to prop up their introduced ideas, what was stopping them from twisting the words of the EFC’s as well?

 

[GodsGrace]

This does not answer your question but I think it is related to the discussion.

Most faiths from any Century have beliefs and practices, do their beliefs and practices that the CC in the 4th Century match up with the actual words of Jesus or the Apostles recorded in the Bible?

I can explain what I believe and practice, by letting Jesus and the Apostles do all the talking. Many beliefs and practices are explained by Jesus and the Apostles a few times they are not, but in the very many times they are, do they match up with the CC in the 4th century?

LOL
You cannot answer my question Walter...because what you posted about the CC is wrong.

What you're saying now makes more sense....
what you're asking now is whether or not practices of the CC in the 300's lined up with what the Apostles taught.

My reply would be yes...
except for Confession...that changed over the years.

This conversation would require the following from you:
You'd have to show an Apostolic teaching
and HOW it was changed by the 300's.

Not an easy task my friend.

I like to read the ECFs and see if what THEY teach lines up with the NT.
This is an easier method and works really well.

 

[GodsGrace]

Doesn't everyone determine the truth about the 4th Century differently? Myself I like to go with the actual words from Jesus and the Apostles to understand their words on most beliefs and practices.

My friend,
If you don't COMPARE what Jesus said with what the church taught in the 300'sAD
HOW do you know if it's the same??

The CC taught what the NT teaches in the 4th century.

The problem here is that some INTERPRET what Jesus stated differently.
Most of the time to suit their own belief system.

Jesus said we're to act on His words...Matthew 7:26

Does everyone really believe this??

 

[GodsGrace]

Doesn't everyone determine the truth about the 4th Century differently? Myself I like to go with the actual words from Jesus and the Apostles to understand their words on most beliefs and practices.

PS
If everyone can determine their own truth....
then
THERE IS NO TRUTH.

 

[GodsGrace]

No…I said that the first Christians were taught by the apostles….who were taught by Jesus Christ….who was taught by his Father.
John 7:14-16...

Wow. You sure do like to write...
but you don't like to READ.

YOU said the early Christians were being deceived.

I asked you
HOW could they have known they were being deceived since they DID NOT HAVE A BIBLE WITH WHICH TO CONFIRM THE DECEPTION.

You see, it was a question to expose your wrongful thinking....the error in your logic.

A person CANNOT know if what they're being taught is legitimate UNLESS they have something with which to compare it.


My statement is this:
THE EARLY CHURCH WAS TEACHING EXACTLY WHAT THE APOSTLES TAUGHT.

THE EARLY CHURCH KEPT HERESY OUT OF THE CHURCH.

But, alas, in 1840 or so some heresy once gain crept into the church.
And some fell for it.

But, just like in olden times,
THE CHURCH is fighting to keep it out.

“When the feast was half over, Jesus went up into the temple and began to teach. The Jews were astonished, and they wondered, “How has this man acquired such knowledge when he has never studied?” Jesus answered them, “My teaching is not my own; rather, it comes from him who sent me.” (NCB)

Why did Jesus need to be taught what to teach by his Father, if both of them are God?

There is a chain of command in the Bible….it begins with God and his early worshippers, who are on record in the Hebrew Scriptures.....and then his laws were given to his people, Israel.....and then Bible truths were reinforced by Jesus Christ his son, who imparted that truth to his apostles….and that is where Scripture ends.

To quote what is not Scripture in order to validate “the church’s” doctrines, is like me quoting an expose’ by Dawkins on Catholic doctrine, to you…I don’t believe that the ECF’s were a reasonable source for Scripture, otherwise their writings would have been included in the canon….none of them were.....not even by “the church”....imagine that.

And since the ECF’s closer to the apostolic period didn’t speak English, how do you know that what is translated from the Greek is even accurate? If they messed with Scripture, why wouldn’t they also mess with the writings of the ECF’s to promote their doctrines?

The first Christians were not strangers to Yahweh because the Scriptures were read to them in the Synagogue from childhood. Since the apostles freely quoted the Hebrew Scriptures, they were learning more about the God of their forefathers whom the Pharisees had betrayed and silenced. (Matt 23:37-39)...in much the same way as the CC betrayed and silenced the ones they called “heretics”.....but they were the real heretics.
What they preserved was their own lies put to the people as Bible truth.

What did God call his ancient people Israel?
Isaiah 43:10-12....Jewish Tanakh...

"You are My witnesses," says the Lord, "and My servant whom I chose," in order that you know and believe Me, and understand that I am He; before Me no god was formed and after Me none shall be.		יאַתֶּ֚ם עֵדַי֙ נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֔ה וְעַבְדִּ֖י אֲשֶׁ֣ר בָּחָ֑רְתִּי לְמַ֣עַן תֵּ֠דְעוּ וְתַֽאֲמִ֨ינוּ לִ֚י וְתָבִ֙ינוּ֙ כִּֽי־אֲנִ֣י ה֔וּא לְפָנַי֙ לֹֽא־נ֣וֹצַר אֵ֔ל וְאַֽחֲרַ֖י לֹ֥א יִֽהְיֶֽה:
11 I, I am the Lord, and besides Me there is no savior.		יאאָֽנֹכִ֥י אָֽנֹכִ֖י יְהֹוָ֑ה וְאֵ֥ין מִבַּלְעָדַ֖י מוֹשִֽׁיעַ:
12 I told and I saved, and I made heard and there was no stranger among you, and you are My witnesses," says the Lord, "and I am God.		יבאָֽנֹכִ֞י הִגַּ֚דְתִּי וְהוֹשַׁ֙עְתִּי֙ וְהִשְׁמַ֔עְתִּי וְאֵ֥ין בָּכֶ֖ם זָ֑ר וְאַתֶּ֥ם עֵדַ֛י נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֖ה וַֽאֲנִי־אֵֽל:

So יְהֹוָ֖ה (Yahweh/Jehovah) has always had his “Witnesses”......we were not “invented”.....the CC was.
Jesus called himself “the Faithful and True Witness”. (Rev 3:14)


Who called them “Catholics”?....not God. They were originally, simply called “Christians”.

What I hate is lies....and don’t look now, but God hates liars too.....the RCC particularly, took “Christianity” down a very dark path for 1500 years....unchallenged....lies upon lies, passed off as Christian truth.

Thanks to Martin Luther, the Reformation broke that tyranny and freed a lot of people from the more ridiculous Catholic doctrines, but unfortunately they did not purge themselves enough, because the Protesters carried the foundational Catholic beliefs of the trinity, immortality of the soul and hellfire with them. But at least it gave people access to the Bible for themselves.....this was the one thing the RCC didn’t want....exposure of their false religion was sure to follow.

You got that wrong....I didn’t say that. I said that people had no way to check the teachings of a church that kept the Bible out of the hands of anyone but themselves.

“As soon as it got dark, the brethren sent Paul and Silas away to Beroea. Upon their arrival, they immediately went to the Jewish synagogue. The people there were more receptive than those in Thessalonica. They received the word with great eagerness, and they examined the Scriptures every day to check whether these things were so. Many of them became believers, as did a considerable number of influential Greek women and men.” (Acts 17:10-12 NCB)

In the first century the people of Boerea were commended for searching the Scriptures for themselves to see if Paul was teaching them the truth....they must have had access to the Scriptures in order to do that.


I never said that those whom the apostles taught had reasons not to believe.....it was the ones coming in after the apostolic period, who did the damage....slowly introducing ideas that had no basis in Scripture and denying “sola Scriptura” so that they could get away with it.


It’s after we get away from the first century that the rot really starts to be introduced.
As I said....who translated the words of the EFC’s from Greek to English?

If translators messed up translation of the Bible to prop up their introduced ideas, what was stopping them from twisting the words of the EFC’s as well?

You don't trust ANYONE!

WHY do you trust Charles Taze Russell???

 

[walter]

PS
If everyone can determine their own truth....
then
THERE IS NO TRUTH.

Sorry to waste everybody's time, I must be getting old I don't know, I heard one time when this guy was fairly old.. and he was talking to somebody on the public bus and he made no sense at all.. I reread my comments over and over, I thought the words made sense.

Thanks for your advice though i'll try better next time.

 

[GodsGrace]

No…I said that the first Christians were taught by the apostles….who were taught by Jesus Christ….who was taught by his Father.
John 7:14-16...
“When the feast was half over, Jesus went up into the temple and began to teach. The Jews were astonished, and they wondered, “How has this man acquired such knowledge when he has never studied?” Jesus answered them, “My teaching is not my own; rather, it comes from him who sent me.” (NCB)

Why did Jesus need to be taught what to teach by his Father, if both of them are God?

There is a chain of command in the Bible….it begins with God and his early worshippers, who are on record in the Hebrew Scriptures.....and then his laws were given to his people, Israel.....and then Bible truths were reinforced by Jesus Christ his son, who imparted that truth to his apostles….and that is where Scripture ends.

Ooops. Fell on the above when I posted my reply.
You know I don't read all of your posts....you really should write less.

You say SCRIPTURE ENDS THERE (with the Apostles).

Auntie Jane
WHO decided what would be scripture?

At least you won't be replying THE HOLY SPIRIT since you believe the Holy Spirit is not God...
He will have no authority to decide anything.

To quote what is not Scripture in order to validate “the church’s” doctrines, is like me quoting an expose’ by Dawkins on Catholic doctrine, to you…I don’t believe that the ECF’s were a reasonable source for Scripture, otherwise their writings would have been included in the canon….none of them were.....not even by “the church”....imagine that.

And since the ECF’s closer to the apostolic period didn’t speak English, how do you know that what is translated from the Greek is even accurate? If they messed with Scripture, why wouldn’t they also mess with the writings of the ECF’s to promote their doctrines?

The first Christians were not strangers to Yahweh because the Scriptures were read to them in the Synagogue from childhood. Since the apostles freely quoted the Hebrew Scriptures, they were learning more about the God of their forefathers whom the Pharisees had betrayed and silenced. (Matt 23:37-39)...in much the same way as the CC betrayed and silenced the ones they called “heretics”.....but they were the real heretics.
What they preserved was their own lies put to the people as Bible truth.

What did God call his ancient people Israel?
Isaiah 43:10-12....Jewish Tanakh...

"You are My witnesses," says the Lord, "and My servant whom I chose," in order that you know and believe Me, and understand that I am He; before Me no god was formed and after Me none shall be.		יאַתֶּ֚ם עֵדַי֙ נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֔ה וְעַבְדִּ֖י אֲשֶׁ֣ר בָּחָ֑רְתִּי לְמַ֣עַן תֵּ֠דְעוּ וְתַֽאֲמִ֨ינוּ לִ֚י וְתָבִ֙ינוּ֙ כִּֽי־אֲנִ֣י ה֔וּא לְפָנַי֙ לֹֽא־נ֣וֹצַר אֵ֔ל וְאַֽחֲרַ֖י לֹ֥א יִֽהְיֶֽה:
11 I, I am the Lord, and besides Me there is no savior.		יאאָֽנֹכִ֥י אָֽנֹכִ֖י יְהֹוָ֑ה וְאֵ֥ין מִבַּלְעָדַ֖י מוֹשִֽׁיעַ:
12 I told and I saved, and I made heard and there was no stranger among you, and you are My witnesses," says the Lord, "and I am God.		יבאָֽנֹכִ֞י הִגַּ֚דְתִּי וְהוֹשַׁ֙עְתִּי֙ וְהִשְׁמַ֔עְתִּי וְאֵ֥ין בָּכֶ֖ם זָ֑ר וְאַתֶּ֥ם עֵדַ֛י נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֖ה וַֽאֲנִי־אֵֽל:

So יְהֹוָ֖ה (Yahweh/Jehovah) has always had his “Witnesses”......we were not “invented”.....the CC was.
Jesus called himself “the Faithful and True Witness”. (Rev 3:14)


Who called them “Catholics”?....not God. They were originally, simply called “Christians”.

What I hate is lies....and don’t look now, but God hates liars too.....the RCC particularly, took “Christianity” down a very dark path for 1500 years....unchallenged....lies upon lies, passed off as Christian truth.

Thanks to Martin Luther, the Reformation broke that tyranny and freed a lot of people from the more ridiculous Catholic doctrines, but unfortunately they did not purge themselves enough, because the Protesters carried the foundational Catholic beliefs of the trinity, immortality of the soul and hellfire with them. But at least it gave people access to the Bible for themselves.....this was the one thing the RCC didn’t want....exposure of their false religion was sure to follow.

You got that wrong....I didn’t say that. I said that people had no way to check the teachings of a church that kept the Bible out of the hands of anyone but themselves.

“As soon as it got dark, the brethren sent Paul and Silas away to Beroea. Upon their arrival, they immediately went to the Jewish synagogue. The people there were more receptive than those in Thessalonica. They received the word with great eagerness, and they examined the Scriptures every day to check whether these things were so. Many of them became believers, as did a considerable number of influential Greek women and men.” (Acts 17:10-12 NCB)

In the first century the people of Boerea were commended for searching the Scriptures for themselves to see if Paul was teaching them the truth....they must have had access to the Scriptures in order to do that.


I never said that those whom the apostles taught had reasons not to believe.....it was the ones coming in after the apostolic period, who did the damage....slowly introducing ideas that had no basis in Scripture and denying “sola Scriptura” so that they could get away with it.


It’s after we get away from the first century that the rot really starts to be introduced.
As I said....who translated the words of the EFC’s from Greek to English?

If translators messed up translation of the Bible to prop up their introduced ideas, what was stopping them from twisting the words of the EFC’s as well?

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry to waste everybody's time, I must be getting old I don't know, I heard one time when this guy was fairly old.. and he was talking to somebody on the public bus and he made no sense at all.. I reread my comments over and over, I thought the words made sense.

Thanks for your advice though i'll try better next time.

What doesn't make sense Walter?

If YOU have a truth
and I have a truth

and we both think we have the truth

The question is:

CAN THERE BE TWO TRUTHS?

NO.

One of us has to be wrong.

If you're holding a pen,,,and it's BLUE.....

YOU say the pen is white
I say the pen is blue.

Can we both be right??

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry to waste everybody's time, I must be getting old I don't know, I heard one time when this guy was fairly old.. and he was talking to somebody on the public bus and he made no sense at all.. I reread my comments over and over, I thought the words made sense.

Thanks for your advice though i'll try better next time.

Think about this:

Some on these forums say we are saved forever NO MATTER WHAT.

Some on these forums say we can lose our salvation by a life of sin.


Can both persons be right?
No.
One has to be wrong.

THERE CANNOT BE TWO TRUTHS.