Reason for The Crusades explained

[Wrangler]

Well, you are not the final judge, Wrangler.

Never claimed to be the final judge. Doesn't change the fact that I am a judge.1 Corinthians 6:3
3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!

 

[Wrangler]

If we want violent Christianity to act like violent Islam, then we want violence, not peace.

What a pacifist rationalization. Not wanting violence and violence being upon you are not the same thing! As a pastor once said, nothing in Scripture should be interpreted to mean that you should be a victim.

Nobody wants to to put their beloved dog down. It's a soulful behavior that is not sinful. How much less so to put down dogs that aren't beloved?

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

What a pacifist rationalization. Not wanting violence and violence being upon you are not the same thing! As a pastor once said, nothing in Scripture should be interpreted to mean that you should be a victim.

What white supremacist militia do you belong to, and when does the race war start?

Are you going to be the next mass shooting trigger man we'll be hearing about in the news?

 

[Matthias]

Oh my! How dare a Christian educate a non-Christian on the teachings of Christ that the non-Christian doesn't agree with! Let's get the moderator's to put an end to this.

@Debp is a Christian and I’m a primitive Christian. You haven’t educated me and I’m waiting to hear from her to find out if you’ve educated her.

What I wrote is true and you have no response to the idea that Christ did not advocate buying things to collect dust.

Scripture tells us why Jesus told them to purchase swords and the two swords they purchased wasn't for the purpose of collecting dust.

One more important point; Christ's command to buy a sword implying we have to be prepared to use it IS a teaching of Christ. There's a difference between a teaching being FALSE with it being a MINOR teaching. If you weren't so over-spiritualized, you would realize this.

Your teaching isn’t a minor teaching; it’s a dangerous teaching.

 

[Matthias]

What a pacifist rationalization. Not wanting violence and violence being upon you are not the same thing!

I agree that a person not wanting violence and violence being inflicted on a person aren’t the same thing.

As a pastor once said, nothing in Scripture should be interpreted to mean that you should be a victim.

The phantom pastor can’t prevent anyone from being a victim.

Nobody wants to to put their beloved dog down. It's a soulful behavior that is not sinful. How much less so to put down dogs that aren't beloved?

Putting your dog down isn’t the same as you killing your enemies.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Your teaching isn’t a minor teaching; it’s a dangerous teaching.

Well the white supremacist militias always claim to be "chrsitians" ya know.

 

[Matthias]

Well the white supremacist militias always claim to be "chrsitians" ya know.

I don’t know if he’s part of a white supremacist militia or not so I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt.

He does exhibit a strong desire to dust off his weapons. Maybe he‘s a crime fighting vigilante and he’ll provide some anecdotes about his crime fighting adventures. I hadn’t thought to ask him about that. I think it’s more likely that he’s writing out a fantasy, but I’ll leave open the possibility that he roams the streets at night looking for armed criminals to slake his thirst.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

I’ll leave open the possibility that he roams the streets at night looking for armed criminals to slake his thirst.

Dressed in tights like Batman?

 

[Matthias]

Dressed in tights like Batman?

I’ll leave it to him to let us know.

While we wait, my mind drifted back to the 60’s when this was playing on the radio -

Benton Harbor, the white-winged warrior.

 

[Matthias]

“The early Christians took Jesus at his word, and understood his inculcations of gentleness and non-resistance in their literal sense. They closely identified their religion with peace; they strongly condemned war for the bloodshed which it involved; they appropriated to themselves the Old Testament prophecy which foretold the transformation of the weapons of war into the implements of agriculture; they declared that it was their policy to return good for evil and to conquer evil with good. With one or two possible exceptions no soldier joined the Church and remained a soldier until the time of Marcus Aurelius (161-180 A.D.). Even then, refusal to serve was known to be the normal policy of the Christians - as the reproaches of Celsus (177-180 A.D.) testify. In the time of Tertullianus (say 200-210 A.D.), many soldiers had left the army on their conversion; and his writings are the earliest record we possess of any Christians joining the army when already converted. While a general distrust of ambition and a horror of contamination by idolatry entered largely into the Christian aversion to military service, the sense of the utter contradiction between the work of imprisoning, torturing, wounding, and killing, on the one hand, and the Master’s teaching on the other, constituted an equally fatal and conclusive objection.“

(C. John Cadoux, The Early Christian Attitude To War, p. 245)

https://theologicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/e-books/cadoux_c-j/early-christian-attitude-to-war_cadoux.pdf

“Anti-Christian” and “over-spiritualized” are inappropriate descriptions and false accusations of those who refused to use the weapons of the world against their enemies.

Will you allow the early Christians to educate @Wrangler?

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Will you allow the early Christians to educate @Wrangler?

We have more revelation from God's Word than they did,, so why go backwards?

 

[Matthias]

We have more revelation from God's Word than they did,, so why go backwards?

The first four hundred years of Church history documents their understanding and practice. He listened to the Crusaders, who came on the scene much later, so maybe he’ll listen to the early generations of Christians and gain a better understanding of how the Christian attitude to war changed dramatically over time.

He chose Cromwell (friend of the king) over Tyndale (enemy of the king). He has shown some measure of interest in Christian history.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

maybe he’ll listen to the early generations of Christians and gain a better understanding of how the Christian attitude to war changed dramatically over time.

So it's a sin for Christians to be cops and in the military?

Hitler and Stalin would have taken over the world if Christians had not believed in self defense.

Using force for self defense is not a sin and the early church is not where we are to get our doctrine from.

We should be getting doctrine from God's Word by revelation from the Holy Spirit.

And you did know that after Paul left many false teachers and false doctrines crept in right?

Acts 20:27-30
For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

 

[Aunty Jane]

One more important point; Christ's command to buy a sword implying we have to be prepared to use it IS a teaching of Christ. There's a difference between a teaching being FALSE with it being a MINOR teaching. If you weren't so over-spiritualized, you would realize this.

You have been shown countless times why Jesus said to buy swords, and why two would have been useless against an armed mob. Peter was reprimanded for using his...it came with a warning....”return your sword to its place....those who live by the sword will die by the sword”.

Paul’s words are also completely ignored....”Do not return evil for evil to anyone”...”the weapons of our warfare” are spiritual, not carnal.

You speak of Christ returning as a warrior, but ignore the fact that he is authorized by his God to command the angelic armies, not the humans ones. It’s not the same at all, and yet you can’t see the error of your thinking....justification only works to deceive yourself....to do what your heart wants to do, but ignoring Jesus altogether.

You quote Scripture without knowledge as if the ‘words’ (usually taken out of context) support your arguments, but you ignore plainly stated Scripture to the contrary, when it is brought to your attention...it’s a certain kind of blindness that only Jesus will cure.....and the ‘cure’ will be permanent.

You speak of being “over spiritualized”...but what happens when you are “under spiritualized”......making excuses to do what Christ never commanded, and even in plain terms, told us NOT to be “part of the world” that is engaging in bloodshed against the enemies we are told to love and pray for. That only seems impossible for those who have no idea why the martyrs chose death rather than compromise their faith.

For you being “faithful unto death” means the death of your perceived enemies....not yourself.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Paul’s words are also completely ignored....”Do not return evil for evil to anyone”

Self defense is not returning evil for evil.

Self defense is about stopping someone from killing or injuring you, it's not getting revenge.

You quote Scripture without knowledge

That's pretty funny coming from the JWs

 

[Wrangler]

You haven’t educated me

Obviously.

Scripture tells us why Jesus told them to purchase swords and the two swords they purchased wasn't for the purpose of collecting dust.

We are agreed; Jesus told them to purchase swords to be prepared to use them for their intended use.

Your teaching isn’t a minor teaching; it’s a dangerous teaching.

Wrong. Being overly spiritualized is what's dangerous.

 

[Aunty Jane]

So it's a sin for Christians to be cops and in the military?

Any role that requires you to carry a weapon shows intent to kill. So no genuine Christian would seek that kind of employment, especially not in the military, who train to kill other humans often in the most heinous and indiscriminate manner. God has never sanctioned murder. War is murder that humans themselves have legalised. Their wars have nothing to do with God or his Christ.

You cannot have a foot in both camps.

Hitler and Stalin would have taken over the world if Christians had not believed in self defense.

And you think God just sits back and has no control whatsoever in the outcomes that he is permitting?
Not a thing happens on this planet that God is not allowing to take place for his will to finally be accomplished. It is not without purpose that we are watching satan’s rulership coming to a sticky end, as we will also see God’s victory in the actions of his son with a much more powerful army and weapons that will make the ones humans rely on, look like water pistols.

The world will do what the world is allowed to do, without our intervention....where is your faith?

And you did know that after Paul left many false teachers and false doctrines crept in right?

Acts 20:27-30
For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Yes indeed...the Bible was written before all of that took place...before the death of the apostles....so using the Scriptures only, we can be guided by what Christ and his apostles taught in all matters....not deviating from their instructions.
As soon as you deviate, your heart becomes emboldened to keep going as the justification goes to ridiculous lengths until you lose all perspective, as we have seen on this thread.....we have to “let go..and let God” as the saying goes.

 

[Wrangler]

Putting your dog down isn’t the same as you killing your enemies.

Didn't say it was. It's the soulful use of violence that is necessary and not sinful.

You see, the overly-spiritualized have such contempt for all things worldly, carnal and fleshy that they automatically equate it with sinful. This perversion flies in the face of the many Scripture verses I cited. Money is of this world, acquired through the body (an exchange for value). Donating it the church is not sinful.

 

[Wrangler]

Will you allow the early Christians to educate @Wrangler?

Friend, the early Christians - the Crusaders - have a lesson for us all. You just refuse to learn the lesson.

 

[walter]

Did Jesus teach his disciples a important lesson? When earlier that day he asked them to purchase swords, and later that night, when it would come natural to protect Jesus, Peter drew his sword and cut off the ear of the high priest servant.

Loving Your Neighbor & "Doing Unto Others"

• Leviticus 19:18: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself".
• Matthew 7:12 (The Golden Rule): "So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets".
• Matthew 22:39: "Love your neighbor as yourself".
• Ephesians 4:32: "Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you".

Loving Your Enemies & Peacemaking

• Matthew 5:44: "But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you".
• Matthew 5:45: "He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous" (modeling God's impartial love).
• Romans 12:14: "Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse".
• Romans 12:17-21: "Do not repay evil for evil... If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink... Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good".
• 1 Peter 3:8-9: "Be of one mind, sympathetic, loving as brothers, compassionate and humble. Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless...".