A Challenge

[Jack]

What if I have a terrible memory for scripture, are my replies/ answers/ myself disqualified/ not valid?

Then you must have more important things than studying what God said. Including salvation.

 

[Pearl]

If I could ask you : If the sacrifice of Christ was all that was needed or required in God's sight for our justification, where does the additional act of " accepting Christ" come from? Most importantly where is it found in scripture?

I found this on: Bible Questions Answered | GotQuestions.org

Often, the exhortation to “ask Jesus to come into your heart” is used as a simple way to say, “Ask Jesus to enter your life” or “Allow the Lord to take control.” If this is done in the context of presenting the whole gospel, then there’s no harm done. But before a person is invited to “ask Jesus into your heart,” he or she should understand sin and its penalty, the payment Christ made on the cross, and the reality of Christ’s resurrection. In fact, referring to salvation as Jesus’ “coming into your heart” might even help a person understand that the Spirit of Christ comes to indwell the soul (see John 14:17). Still, it is always best to use the terminology the Bible uses. “Ask Jesus into your heart” does not fully communicate what is actually occurring at salvation.

 

[rwb]

Oh yes indeed. We will never ever have any idea of the weight of the burden of guilt that Jesus voluntarily accepted that ultimately led to His death, which if truth be told, was the direct cause of death. And such would have destroyed any mortal man, what terrible conflict there must have been in the mind of the most holy Son of God to allow such a burden to be placed upon Him. How ugly how foreign to His nature, how objectionabl and offensivee it must have been for Him. Yet He did for you and me and everyone else on this planet.

That's not quite what Scripture tells us! It's true that the blood of Christ has made atonement for ALL sin without exception! However, the atonement made through the blood of Christ is not automatically imputed to ALL without exception! For man to receive the gift of eternal life and be spared being cast into the lake of fire that is the second death, "Ye must be born again"!

Since Scripture indicates that all who are cast into the lake of fire to experience the second death .... what is never ending, is it pain and suffering associated with being cast into the eternal flames, or is it DEATH itself?

 

[Lambano]

What is the difference between damnationism (which I have never heard of) and annihilationism, a version of which I subscribe to?

Damned if I know.

Seriously, “Damnationism” is better known as “Eternal Conscious Torment”.

 

[Moontan13]

Torture doesn't always mean on a board and being strectched out either...

People can be tortured by their own thoughts and ways.

Remember the man cutting himself in the graveyard, and seen Jesus and had a turn around, only because of Jesus himself healing him.

That still happens today I think, where people are tortured by their own selves, and they come to Jesus...

All individually.

Pardons for butting in here...
Have you read "The Knowledge Of The Holy" by AW Tozer? In it, it's stated we can know a lot about God, but not everything. I wholeheartedly agree. This was my first time with Tozer, so I went on to start "The Crucified Life". I got as far as the introduction where Francois Fenelon's book, "Christian Perfection" was brought up. My gyros spun and locked in again. I looked around and found some compilation of Fenelon's writings, "Let Go" and "The Seeking Heart". Then I paid $50 for an old trade paperback of "Christian Perfection", then got a new copy of "The Complete Fenelon". Why? Fenelon talks about walking in harmony with God, the perpetual presence and awareness of God being right here and right now. I have to ask, how can a believer not in open rebellion, commit sins with the awareness that He sees everything? It would be like taking your Mom for a walk then having her sit down and relax on a bench while you engage the services of a prostitute (It was only 5 minutes Mom, can we continue our walk?!) I'll leave that right there.
I recently took notice of the Hell controversy with Kirk Cameron taking a position. Everyone has a position and many whom I thought might be stalwarts are expressing doubts about "eternal torment". I have some doubts myself. I chalk it up to "I can't know everything", and the parts in scripture that imply something else (Shall not see the Kingdom of Heaven) are there for a reason. I'll soldier on knowing all is observed, and that time is growing short.

 

[MatthewG]

Pardons for butting in here...
Have you read "The Knowledge Of The Holy" by AW Tozer? In it, it's stated we can know a lot about God, but not everything. I wholeheartedly agree. This was my first time with Tozer, so I went on to start "The Crucified Life". I got as far as the introduction where Francois Fenelon's book, "Christian Perfection" was brought up. My gyros spun and locked in again. I looked around and found some compilation of Fenelon's writings, "Let Go" and "The Seeking Heart". Then I paid $50 for an old trade paperback of "Christian Perfection", then got a new copy of "The Complete Fenelon". Why? Fenelon talks about walking in harmony with God, the perpetual presence and awareness of God being right here and right now. I have to ask, how can a believer not in open rebellion, commit sins with the awareness that He sees everything? It would be like taking your Mom for a walk then having her sit down and relax on a bench while you engage the services of a prostitute (It was only 5 minutes Mom, can we continue our walk?!) I'll leave that right there.
I recently took notice of the Hell controversy with Kirk Cameron taking a position. Everyone has a position and many whom I thought might be stalwarts are expressing doubts about "eternal torment". I have some doubts myself. I chalk it up to "I can't know everything", and the parts in scripture that imply something else (Shall not see the Kingdom of Heaven) are there for a reason. I'll soldier on knowing all is observed, and that time is growing short.

No, I never read any of those books. Thank you for sharing some of your own insights. I just trust what is stated in the end of the bible, concerning people not even being in hell but actually outside the gates of heaven.

 

[Moontan13]

The reference I found for that is Rev 22:15. Some think that means those who were excluded, not physically standing outside the gates. I have more reading to do.

 

[Luther7]

That's not quite what Scripture tells us! It's true that the blood of Christ has made atonement for ALL sin without exception! However, the atonement made through the blood of Christ is not automatically imputed to ALL without exception! For man to receive the gift of eternal life and be spared being cast into the lake of fire that is the second death, "Ye must be born again"!

Since Scripture indicates that all who are cast into the lake of fire to experience the second death .... what is never ending, is it pain and suffering associated with being cast into the eternal flames, or is it DEATH itself?

The soul dies. It's like a candle that's put out. That's truly sad when you think about it. I want my soul to live forever with Christ. And I pray this for everyone I know and love.

 

[quietthinker]

Then you must have more important things than studying what God said. Including salvation.

My observation is that there are plenty who study what God said....in fact, Colleges who process thousands are dedicated to doing this very thing yet relatively few actually understand in spite of much debate being engaged.

It appears to me the many religious leaders in Jesus time had the same affliction. The go-to was blame in some form or other; the sick strategy of pushing others down to elevate themselves.....oblivious that this is what they are doing.
What to do? Jesus said, 'leave them, they are blind guides....'

 

[rwb]

The soul dies. It's like a candle that's put out. That's truly sad when you think about it. I want my soul to live forever with Christ. And I pray this for everyone I know and love.

To be a living soul is to be alive. This life can be eternal spiritual life through the Spirit of Christ in us, and it is also physical life that gives life to flesh, through spirit that became a living soul. The flesh dies, and if the man of flesh was indwelt with the Holy Spirit, the spirit of man through the Holy Spirit ascends to heaven alive; a living soul. But the man who dies in unbelief is said to be in silence and darkness in the grave, no longer a living soul because the natural man has not the Spirit of Christ for eternal life.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

 

[Moontan13]

The soul dies. It's like a candle that's put out. That's truly sad when you think about it. I want my soul to live forever with Christ. And I pray this for everyone I know and love.

Rhetorically asking:
How many would abandon the Christian life and fornicate with their girlfriend or let her move in if they thought they would "just die" rather than face hell?
Going a little further, if people "knew" suicide isn't a ticket straight to hell, would they then choose to die? I'm aware the Scriptures do not support this, but at least one sect does.

 

[rvmb]

Rhetorically asking:
How many would abandon the Christian life and fornicate with their girlfriend or let her move in if they thought they would "just die" rather than face hell?
Going a little further, if people "knew" suicide isn't a ticket straight to hell, would they then choose to die? I'm aware the Scriptures do not support this, but at least one sect does.

""How many would abandon the Christian life and fornicate with their girlfriend or let her move in if they thought they would""
Do you believe that if a Eph 1:13, 1 Cor 15:1-4 sealed/saved/justified Christian does that they can become unsaved ?
If so, what verses from Paul do you believe teaches that ?

 

[quietthinker]

Well, no. I listen to people's opinions. If they are away off base as far as Scripture is concerned, I can always remind you. But I would also be interested from whence your opinions came. How did they form? What influences were there that you came to your conclusions?
As for the topic of the thread, it's a challenge to validate current thinking with Scripture. Is that possible do you think?

Words used like sacrifice, redemption, atonement, salvation etc have been connected or woven into the idea of punishment.....and punishment is understood as what someone else does to you or someone else on your behalf.

I'll take the word 'sacrifice'. Is it seen as an offering, even a blood offering and a barbecue with a sweet smelling savour? ie does God actually like spilt blood and or roasting flesh (as men do)....and when he sees it or smells it, he loves it and is motivated to forgive?
It seems the Hebrews thought so. In fact it was assumed the more bulls (bloody big animals) and lambs that were killed (blood spilled) the more God was pleased. We see this in Solomon's dedication of the temple where thousands were killed.

As I have said many times on this forum, we can understand 'sacrifice' as a giving up of privileges....even to the point of death.

I submit that Jesus gave himself. He didn't hire himself out, he didn't lend himself, he didn't psychologically or emotionally manipulate....he GAVE....and that FREELY.

When Jesus took on humanity it wasn't just for 33 years, it was for eternity. Think about the nature of THIS sacrifice.....even that of allowing us to murder him.
It shifts the understanding; the focus from punitive to generosity.

This, in my view resonates with LOVE more than any pagan idea of God wanting shed blood (sacrifice) as a precursor or an arm twister to forgiveness.
God forgives because that's his nature. Consider the word 'long-suffering' 'Long' in the true sense of the word is when it never ends.

If we have the idea that God one day say's, that's it guy's, the gunny sack is full, now your gonna cop it, so to speak, we have loaded a paradigm onto God which is none other than our own; we have made God in our image.

Much more can be said, yet for this post it is sufficient.

 

[ScottA]

I have a challenge. Please read carefully the following, and then answer the concluding questions using Scripture only as the basis for your answers.


Peter 1:18,19 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fhers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

2:24,25 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls
3:18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.

1 Cor. 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures

In light of the above scriptures, and many more such besides,(Rom. 3:25,26. 5:8,9. 6:10. Colossians 1:20-22. Heb. 9:15,16,22.) my first question is..... And yes it's rhetorical...

When Jesus died upon the cross of Calvary, was this act a full and final settlement of the debt we owe due to our sin? In other words, has the full redemption price been paid, and what was that price?

Okay, that the full and final redemption price has been paid on behalf of a lost race would be disputed by few who know their Bibles. That Jesus paid the price, taking upon Himself the full punishment that was rightly due sinful man, is the great central theme of the gospel, in fact, all of scripture. It is called by many names. Redemption. Atonement. Salvation. Vicarius sacrifice. Propitiation. They all mean one and the same thing. That the just died for the unust. The sinless for the sinner. Christ died in our place.
Christ was treated as we deserve, that we might be treated as He deserves. He was condemned for our sins, in which He had no share, that we might be justified by His righteousness, in which we had no share. He suffered the death which was ours, that we might receive the life which was His. “With His stripes we are healed.” The punishment and full penalty that belonged justly and rightly to us, was laid upon Christ. He died that we might live. Very few would dare to argue with this most profound and fundamental of Biblical truths. And the entire OT terrified to this without exception, right from the Garden of Eden. And there are scores of scriptures in the NT that verify and support this most wonderful doctrine.
Romans 3:25,26; 5:8,9; 6:10.
Colossians 1:20-22.
Hebrews 2:14,15; 9:15,22.
1 Peter 1:18,19; 2:24; 3:18.
Revelation 1:18; 5:9

These are but a small selection but enough to deduce the following basic principles inherent in the atonement.

1. Because death is the due and just penalty for sin (Rom. 6:23), death therefore was the redemptive price.
2. Jesus, through the shedding of His own blood and His vicarius death upon the cross, paid that price in full.
3. Those who for whatever reason reject the offer of forgiveness inherent in the atonement, and thus are not included in the number of the redeemed, must pay the price themselves.

If the above be true, I have a number of questions.
a. Why is it that the majority of Christian churches today teach that men who die in their sins do not die, but live for all eternity, and are therefore given immortality, being tortured in hell?

b. If it be true that eternal torment is the just penalty for sin, then why did Jesus not pay it?

c. If the reward for those who do accept the gospel is eternal life, and granted as a gift (John 3:16,36; Rom. 6:23) and no churches deny this, why do those same churches insist that the wicked also receive the gift of eternal life, which is denied by the very same scriptures?(John 3:16,36; Rom. 6:23)

d. And finally, if eternal torment is the just penalty for sin as most contend, we must logically conclude that because Jesus did not pay that price, then the gospel is a sham and we all, both Christian and pagan alike, are doomed to spend eternity suffering together.

Brake,

All (saved as well as unsaved) are raised up in the resurrection before God..."some to everlasting life and some to everlasting damnation."

No "Christian" receives eternal damnation. But do understand that all who "follow" Christ and call him Lord are Christians. Like those who only go to a marriage celebration for the food and drink (even though invited), but could really care less, all who follow Christ but are joined with him fully in heart receive his blessing.

 

[rvmb]

Brake,

All (saved as well as unsaved) are raised up in the resurrection before God..."some to everlasting life and some to everlasting damnation."

No "Christian" receives eternal damnation. But do understand that all who "follow" Christ and call him Lord are Christians. Like those who only go to a marriage celebration for the food and drink (even though invited), but could really care less, all who follow Christ but are joined with him fully in heart receive his blessing.

Brake,

All (saved as well as unsaved) are raised up in the resurrection before God..."some to everlasting life and some to everlasting damnation."

No "Christian" receives eternal damnation. But do understand that all who "follow" Christ and call him Lord are Christians. Like those who only go to a marriage celebration for the food and drink (even though invited), but could really care less, all who follow Christ but are joined with him fully in heart receive his blessing.

1. I understand that regardless of performance a Christian today (Body of Christ) IS saved, IS sealed, IS justified the moment they place their faith/trust in the Gospel - Eph 1:13, 1 Cor 15:1-4
2. 1 Cor 3:10-15, 2 Cor 5:10 teaches that THOUGH SAVED, eternal rewards/loss will be based on the post-saved life of the believer.
3. 1 Cor 5:1-5, 1 Cor 11:27-30 warns of the possible consequences of excess post-saved sin.

 

[David in NJ]

I have a challenge. Please read carefully the following, and then answer the concluding questions using Scripture only as the basis for your answers.


Peter 1:18,19 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

2:24,25 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls
3:18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.

1 Cor. 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures

In light of the above scriptures, and many more such besides,(Rom. 3:25,26. 5:8,9. 6:10. Colossians 1:20-22. Heb. 9:15,16,22.) my first question is..... And yes it's rhetorical...

When Jesus died upon the cross of Calvary, was this act a full and final settlement of the debt we owe due to our sin? In other words, has the full redemption price been paid, and what was that price?

Okay, that the full and final redemption price has been paid on behalf of a lost race would be disputed by few who know their Bibles. That Jesus paid the price, taking upon Himself the full punishment that was rightly due sinful man, is the great central theme of the gospel, in fact, all of scripture. It is called by many names. Redemption. Atonement. Salvation. Vicarius sacrifice. Propitiation. They all mean one and the same thing. That the just died for the unust. The sinless for the sinner. Christ died in our place.
Christ was treated as we deserve, that we might be treated as He deserves. He was condemned for our sins, in which He had no share, that we might be justified by His righteousness, in which we had no share. He suffered the death which was ours, that we might receive the life which was His. “With His stripes we are healed.” The punishment and full penalty that belonged justly and rightly to us, was laid upon Christ. He died that we might live. Very few would dare to argue with this most profound and fundamental of Biblical truths. And the entire OT terrified to this without exception, right from the Garden of Eden. And there are scores of scriptures in the NT that verify and support this most wonderful doctrine.
Romans 3:25,26; 5:8,9; 6:10.
Colossians 1:20-22.
Hebrews 2:14,15; 9:15,22.
1 Peter 1:18,19; 2:24; 3:18.
Revelation 1:18; 5:9

These are but a small selection but enough to deduce the following basic principles inherent in the atonement.

1. Because death is the due and just penalty for sin (Rom. 6:23), death therefore was the redemptive price.
2. Jesus, through the shedding of His own blood and His vicarius death upon the cross, paid that price in full.
3. Those who for whatever reason reject the offer of forgiveness inherent in the atonement, and thus are not included in the number of the redeemed, must pay the price themselves.

If the above be true, I have a number of questions.
a. Why is it that the majority of Christian churches today teach that men who die in their sins do not die, but live for all eternity, and are therefore given immortality, being tortured in hell?

b. If it be true that eternal torment is the just penalty for sin, then why did Jesus not pay it?

c. If the reward for those who do accept the gospel is eternal life, and granted as a gift (John 3:16,36; Rom. 6:23) and no churches deny this, why do those same churches insist that the wicked also receive the gift of eternal life, which is denied by the very same scriptures?(John 3:16,36; Rom. 6:23)

d. And finally, if eternal torment is the just penalty for sin as most contend, we must logically conclude that because Jesus did not pay that price, then the gospel is a sham and we all, both Christian and pagan alike, are doomed to spend eternity suffering together.

you don't know the easy answers to these questions???

 

[JustMe]

Damned if I know.

Seriously, “Damnationism” is better known as “Eternal Conscious Torment”.

Jacob Marley, Scrooge's mate, was in a state of damnationism. He was damned to walk the fine line separating eternal life and eternal death, both in full view, forever. His numerous unrepented sins he had accumulated in his lifetime did him in. He was constantly conscious of them with all those heavy chains he wore, engulfing him, never to be free of them.

I don't buy it, I'm in Brakelite's camp of annihilation...instant non-existence, as the life-energy of a person or spirit is then reabsorbed into God...that's all folks....

 

[Moontan13]

""How many would abandon the Christian life and fornicate with their girlfriend or let her move in if they thought they would""
Do you believe that if a Eph 1:13, 1 Cor 15:1-4 sealed/saved/justified Christian does that they can become unsaved ?
If so, what verses from Paul do you believe teaches that ?

I think there are a great many Christians who believe church lore (common knowledge) over what the Holy Bible says. Example: That one can lose salvation. CS Lewis wrote as much in "Mere Christianity". As much as I like authors that write about Biblical subjects, there don't seem to be any lists, and I have to be careful about falseness. I think clergy who believe in the permanence of salvation let the myth about suicide alone for fear of causing more suicides among believers.

 

[rvmb]

I think there are a great many Christians who believe church lore (common knowledge) over what the Holy Bible says. Example: That one can lose salvation. CS Lewis wrote as much in "Mere Christianity". As much as I like authors that write about Biblical subjects, there don't seem to be any lists, and I have to be careful about falseness. I think clergy who believe in the permanence of salvation let the myth about suicide alone for fear of causing more suicides among believers.

Thanks for your thoughts M13.
Where do you believe Paul teaches that a Eph 1:13, 1 Cor 15:1-4 sealed/saved believer can become unsaved ?

 

[Charlie24]

If I could ask you : If the sacrifice of Christ was all that was needed or required in God's sight for our justification, where does the additional act of " accepting Christ" come from? Most importantly where is it found in scripture?

The Atonement of Christ for our sins on the Cross didn't save anyone, it made it possible for man to be saved.

We were under the curse of the Law of Sin and Death, Christ took our place to lift that curse from us.

Man must believe in this Atonement and accept Christ as his Savior to be saved.

Man who rejects it is still cursed and the wrath of God abides on him.