All things written may be fulfilled

[grafted branch]

Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:



Many people place 2 Thessalonians 1:8 as taking place at a still future coming of Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8 cross references with quite a few Old Testament passages, and Luke 21:22 also cross references with some of the same verses, particularly the ones with the word “vengeance” in them, such as Deuteronomy 32:35, Isaiah 61:2 and Isaiah 63:4 to name a few.

Now, 2 Thessalonians was likely written around 51AD to 52 AD, and Luke, well that’s not so certain but I see some say around 58AD and others around 80-90AD. It seems a consensus though that Luke was written after 2 Thessalonians, so it stands to reason that 2 Thessalonians 1:8 would’ve been known information to the writer of Luke when it was written.

If one places Luke 21:22 taking place in 70AD and 2 Thessalonians 1:8 still future, then “all things written” was not fulfilled. I suppose a dual fulfillment argument could be made that 2 Thessalonians 1:8 gets fulfilled more than once but I think that would be a tough position to support for most views.

So, it seems to me most of us should either say all things written were already fulfilled in 70AD, both Luke 21:22 and 2 Thessalonians 1:8, or that neither were fulfilled in 70AD and they are both still future.

Does anyone have any comments or thoughts on any of this?

 

[Douggg]

Does anyone have any comments or thoughts on any of this?

Yes, the days of vengance in Luke 21:22 is referring to the destruction of the temple days in 70 AD.

In Luke 21, Jesus was speaking while in the temple courtyard to those gathered around.

In Matthew 24 and in Mark 13, Jesus was on the Mt. of Olives speaking about the same things.

So, Luke 21 is a parallel to the Olivet Discourse. Here on this table/chart, I give the verses breakdown under the headings of being (Near term), (Long term), (End Times). Luke 21:8-23 Jesus was speaking about near term events to take place.

 

[grafted branch]

Yes, the days of vengance in Luke 21:22 is referring to the destruction of the temple days in 70 AD.

In Luke 21, Jesus was speaking while in the temple courtyard to those gathered around.

In Matthew 24 and in Mark 13, Jesus was on the Mt. of Olives speaking about the same things.

So, Luke 21 is a parallel to the Olivet Discourse. Here on this table/chart, I give the verses breakdown under the headings of being (Near term), (Long term), (End Times). Luke 21:8-23 Jesus was speaking about near term events to take place.

View attachment 76065

Would you say all things written about the temple were fulfilled in 70AD?

 

[Douggg]

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The things written to be fulfilled when the Roman took out there vengeance the Jews and Jerusalem are written in Daniel 9:26.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

 

[Douggg]

Would you say all things written about the temple were fulfilled in 70AD?

As far as the second temple is concerned, yes, it was destroyed in 70AD.

 

[grafted branch]

As far as the second temple is concerned, yes, it was destroyed in 70AD.

The things written to be fulfilled when the Roman took out there vengeance the Jews and Jerusalem are written in Daniel 9:26.

Ok, thanks. It appears you are defining “all things written” very narrowly. When Luke 21:22 says these be the days of vengeance, are you also limiting that to the same narrow definition?

 

[Douggg]

Ok, thanks. It appears you are defining “all things written” very narrowly. When Luke 21:22 says these be the days of vengeance, are you also limiting that to the same narrow definition?

Yes,

I think you are connecting the vengeance in 2Thessalonians1:8 as being the Romans taking out their vengeance in 70 AD ?

I don't think so, because of the content of 2Thessalonains1:7-10 is referring to the day that Jesus returns.

 

[grafted branch]

Yes,

I think you are connecting the vengeance in 2Thessalonians1:8 as being the Romans taking out their vengeance in 70 AD ?

I don't think so, because of the content of 2Thessalonains1:7-10 is referring to the day that Jesus returns.

Are there any verses in the OT that use the word vengeance that are specific to only Luke 21:22? I would agree that Daniel 9:26 is talking about 70AD but to me it seems that Luke 21:22 is referring back to a verse that uses the term vengeance, else he might’ve said something like “these be the days of destruction” or something like that.

 

[The Light]

Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:



Many people place 2 Thessalonians 1:8 as taking place at a still future coming of Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8 cross references with quite a few Old Testament passages, and Luke 21:22 also cross references with some of the same verses, particularly the ones with the word “vengeance” in them, such as Deuteronomy 32:35, Isaiah 61:2 and Isaiah 63:4 to name a few.

Now, 2 Thessalonians was likely written around 51AD to 52 AD, and Luke, well that’s not so certain but I see some say around 58AD and others around 80-90AD. It seems a consensus though that Luke was written after 2 Thessalonians, so it stands to reason that 2 Thessalonians 1:8 would’ve been known information to the writer of Luke when it was written.

If one places Luke 21:22 taking place in 70AD and 2 Thessalonians 1:8 still future, then “all things written” was not fulfilled. I suppose a dual fulfillment argument could be made that 2 Thessalonians 1:8 gets fulfilled more than once but I think that would be a tough position to support for most views.

So, it seems to me most of us should either say all things written were already fulfilled in 70AD, both Luke 21:22 and 2 Thessalonians 1:8, or that neither were fulfilled in 70AD and they are both still future.

Does anyone have any comments or thoughts on any of this?

Both verses are future events.

The days of vengeance are the 7th seal wrath of God, the 7 trumpetS and 7 vials.

None of those verses are about 70AD.

 

[Douggg]

Are there any verses in the OT that use the word vengeance that are specific to only Luke 21:22? I would agree that Daniel 9:26 is talking about 70AD but to me it seems that Luke 21:22 is referring back to a verse that uses the term vengeance, else he might’ve said something like “these be the days of destruction” or something like that.

I think I would go with just Daniel 9:26 because historically we know that the Romans destroyed the second temple (the temple of Jesus's first coming).

 

[The Light]

Are there any verses in the OT that use the word vengeance that are specific to only Luke 21:22? I would agree that Daniel 9:26 is talking about 70AD but to me it seems that Luke 21:22 is referring back to a verse that uses the term vengeance, else he might’ve said something like “these be the days of destruction” or something like that.

Daniel 9:26 is not talking about 70 AD. Daniel 9:26 is talking about the third Temple that will soon be built and the future destruction of Jerusalem.

Has nothing whatsoever to do with the Romans.

 

[grafted branch]

Both verses are future events.

The days of vengeance are the 7th seal wrath of God, the 7 trumpetS and 7 vials.

None of those verses are about 70AD.

Well at least you are being consistent. Luke said “these be the days of vengeance” so I would think he was including the day of vengeance that Paul wrote about in 2 Thessalonians 1:8, otherwise all things written about the day of vengeance wasn’t fulfilled.

 

[grafted branch]

I think I would go with just Daniel 9:26 because historically we know that the Romans destroyed the second temple (the temple of Jesus's first coming).

Well that’s a problem I brought up in the OP, Luke seems to pull from the OT about the days of vengeance yet the days of vengeance in the OT cross references with both Luke 21:22 and 2 Thessalonians 1:8. If they are separate events of vengeance then we should be able to distinguish which OT verses about vengeance point only to 70AD and which ones point only to a second coming, otherwise it appears to be some kinda of dual fulfillment solution.

 

[Truth7t7]

Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:



Many people place 2 Thessalonians 1:8 as taking place at a still future coming of Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8 cross references with quite a few Old Testament passages, and Luke 21:22 also cross references with some of the same verses, particularly the ones with the word “vengeance” in them, such as Deuteronomy 32:35, Isaiah 61:2 and Isaiah 63:4 to name a few.

Now, 2 Thessalonians was likely written around 51AD to 52 AD, and Luke, well that’s not so certain but I see some say around 58AD and others around 80-90AD. It seems a consensus though that Luke was written after 2 Thessalonians, so it stands to reason that 2 Thessalonians 1:8 would’ve been known information to the writer of Luke when it was written.

If one places Luke 21:22 taking place in 70AD and 2 Thessalonians 1:8 still future, then “all things written” was not fulfilled. I suppose a dual fulfillment argument could be made that 2 Thessalonians 1:8 gets fulfilled more than once but I think that would be a tough position to support for most views.

So, it seems to me most of us should either say all things written were already fulfilled in 70AD, both Luke 21:22 and 2 Thessalonians 1:8, or that neither were fulfilled in 70AD and they are both still future.

Does anyone have any comments or thoughts on any of this?

Revelation 11:2 & Luke 21:20 is the same future event, the book of Revelation was written in 96AD under the reign of Emperor Domitian

Revelation 11:2KJV
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Luke 21:20-22KJV
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

 

[grafted branch]

Revelation 11:2 & Luke 21:20 is the same future event, the book of Revelation was written in 96AD under the reign of Emperor Domitian

Revelation 11:2KJV
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Luke 21:20-22KJV
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Sure, regardless of when Jerusalem is surrounded by armies and trodden by Gentiles, do you think the days of vengeance in Luke 21:22 is the same vengeance being taken in 2 Thessalonians 1:8?

 

[Douggg]

Daniel 9:26 is not talking about 70 AD. Daniel 9:26 is talking about the third Temple that will soon be built and the future destruction of Jerusalem

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

No, the destruction of the city of Jerusalem and the sanctuary took place in the generation which Jesus the Messiah was cutoff. The city and sanctuary were destroyed by the Romans in 70AD.

The third temple, that of the end times, and Jerusalem will not be destroyed. But will be the site when the abomination of desolation will be setup, then indwelt by Satan. Then, on the day of Jesus's return, the statue image will go up in flames, turned to ashes. And there will be Satan on the temple exposed.

 

[Douggg]

Revelation 11:2 & Luke 21:20 is the same future event, the book of Revelation was written in 96AD under the reign of Emperor Domitian

Revelation 11:2KJV
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Luke 21:20-22KJV
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Revelation 11:2 is end times. The 42 months are the 42 months that the beast will rule in Revelation 13:5.

Luke 21:20-23 is back in 70AD.

Luke 21:24 verifies it.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

 

[Douggg]

Well that’s a problem I brought up in the OP, Luke seems to pull from the OT about the days of vengeance yet the days of vengeance in the OT cross references with both Luke 21:22 and 2 Thessalonians 1:8. If they are separate events of vengeance then we should be able to distinguish which OT verses about vengeance point only to 70AD and which ones point only to a second coming, otherwise it appears to be some kinda of dual fulfillment solution.

I don't think there is any additional need from scripture that Luke 21:22 was 70AD. And that 2Thesslaonians1:8 is end times.

 

[grafted branch]

I don't think there is any additional need from scripture that Luke 21:22 was 70AD. And that 2Thesslaonians1:8 is end times.

Luke said these be the days of vengeance, and he wrote that many years after Paul wrote about a coming vengeance. Luke said that all things written may be fulfilled.

Without any additional scripture to clarify this they are both talking about the same vengeance or there is a dual fulfillment occurring.

 

[Douggg]

Luke said these be the days of vengeance, and he wrote that many years after Paul wrote about a coming vengeance. Luke said that all things written may be fulfilled.

Without any additional scripture to clarify this they are both talking about the same vengeance or there is a dual fulfillment occurring.

The context of 2Thessalonians1:7-10 is unquestionably referring to the end times when Jesus returns.

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.