All things written may be fulfilled

[grafted branch]

The context of 2Thessalonians1:7-10 is unquestionably referring to the end times when Jesus returns.

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Right, and some preterist would agree. That all got fulfilled in 70AD, just as Luke 21:22 says, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

I’m not going to argue for the preterist view here, but what you said would support that view and that both Luke 21:22 and 2 Thessalonians 1:8 are talking about the same vengeance.

 

[Douggg]

but what you said would support that view and that both Luke 21:22 and 2 Thessalonians 1:8 are talking about the same vengeance.

No, what I wrote does not support in any way that 2Thessalonians:2:7-10 has taken place already. 2Thessalonians2:7-10 is end times, at Jesus's return.

 

[Truth7t7]

Sure, regardless of when Jerusalem is surrounded by armies and trodden by Gentiles, do you think the days of vengeance in Luke 21:22 is the same vengeance being taken in 2 Thessalonians 1:8?

"No"

Luke 21:22 takes place over a 42 month period starting and representing the future great tribulation, dealing specifically with gentile armies and Jerusalem

2 Thessalonians 1:8 represents the Lord's second coming in vengeance after the tribulation has concluded, this is a parallel reading of Luke 17:29-30 as seen below

2 Thessalonians 1:8KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

 

[grafted branch]

No, what I wrote does not support in any way that 2Thessalonians:2:7-10 has taken place already. 2Thessalonians2:7-10 is end times, at Jesus's return.

Right, and preterist think Jesus returned in 70AD, which was future to 51-52AD when 2 Thessalonians was written. The end times were the end times of the old, dead, decaying covenant that vanished in 70AD.



Let’s look at it like this …

A) Luke 21:22 happens 70AD, 2 Thessalonians 1:8 happens 70AD.

B) Luke 21:22 happens 70AD, 2 Thessalonians 1:8 happens future.

C) Luke 21:22 happens future, 2 Thessalonians 1:8 happens future.

This is pretty much the three views out there. Arguing that 2 Thessalonians 1 points to a future (post 52 AD) coming agrees with the preterist which hold to option A). And it would also agree with futurist who hold option C).

 

[grafted branch]

"No"

Luke 21:22 takes place over a 42 month period starting and representing the future great tribulation, dealing specifically with gentile armies and Jerusalem

2 Thessalonians 1:8 represents the Lord's second coming in vengeance after the tribulation has concluded, this is a parallel reading of Luke 17:29-30 as seen below

2 Thessalonians 1:8KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

So all things which are written won’t be fulfilled when the Luke 22:21 days of vengeance gets fulfilled?

 

[Douggg]

Let’s look at it like this …

A) Luke 21:22 happens 70AD, 2 Thessalonians 1:8 happens 70AD.

B) Luke 21:22 happens 70AD, 2 Thessalonians 1:8 happens future.

C) Luke 21:22 happens future, 2 Thessalonians 1:8 happens future.

This is pretty much the three views out there.

I agree. I was thinking the exact same thing.

A) @grafted branch

B) @Douggg

C) @Truth7t7

 

[The Light]

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

No, the destruction of the city of Jerusalem and the sanctuary took place in the generation which Jesus the Messiah was cutoff.

The destruction of the Temple will be the Temple that the Antichrist declares himself to be God in. God is not finished with Jerusalem.

Zechariah 13:8
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

The city and sanctuary were destroyed by the Romans in 70AD. The third temple, that of the end times, and Jerusalem will not be destroyed. But will be the site when the abomination of desolation will be setup, then indwelt by Satan.

Not the end of the story.

Luke 21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Then, on the day of Jesus's return, the statue image will go up in flames, turned to ashes. And there will be Satan on the temple exposed.

I am not familiar with this verse. Could educate me and provide chapter and verse?

 

[Douggg]

I am not familiar with this verse. Could educate me and provide chapter and verse?

What's going to happen in the end times that will result in Satan being bound in chains and thrown into the bottomless pit, is in Ezekiel 28:12-19.

Most Christians, even those who study eschatology are unfamiliar with those verses.

In verse 12, the king of Tyrus is a code name for Satan. Being a code name, becomes clear, as a person continues to read through verses 13-16.

In verse 17, is that Satan is going to be cast to the ground, i.e. earth. Which we read about in Revelation 12:7-9.

In verse 17, once cast down to earth, Satan is going to be exposed to the kings of earth. (on the day of Jesus's return.)

In verse 18, a fire is going to come up in Satan's midst. That is the statue image that Satan will be indwelling is going to go up in flames. And in verse 18, Satan is going to be turned ashes. That is the statue is going to go up in flames and burnt all the way to ashes.

In verse 18, in bringing the statue image to ashes, everyone present that day is going to see Satan exposed there on the temple mount.

In verse 19, the people who will have been worshiping the statue image are going to be shocked to find out they had been actually worshiping Satan without realizing it.

In verse 19, it says Satan will be a terror. That is referring to Satan having great wrath in Revelation 12:12 when he is cast down to earth in the middle part of the 7 years.

In verse 19, it says Satan will be a terror no more. That is because Satan is going to bound in chains and cast into the bottom
less pit that day, in Revelation 20:1-3.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So please go read through those verses. Here is a visual I made of that day when Satan gets exposed. I noted Ezekiel 28:16-19 on the visual.

 

[TribulationSigns]

A) WRONG

B) WRONG

C) CORRECT

1. The Temple of Matthew 24 is a prophecy of the Temple near the end of the world/age that would have abomination stand it in.​

​

2. The Old Testament Temple (that the literal temple symbolized) was the congregation that fell at the cross. Spiritually! And was rebuilt in Christ, Him being the corner stone of that Temple re-building, in three days. That's why the veil of the Holy Temple was rent/torn from "Top to bottom" the second that Christ died. It signified the fall of the Old Testament Temple, which would be rebuilt in Christ's resurrection.​

​

Nothing to do with 7AD no matter what the group A and B say.​

 

[WPM]

Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:



Many people place 2 Thessalonians 1:8 as taking place at a still future coming of Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8 cross references with quite a few Old Testament passages, and Luke 21:22 also cross references with some of the same verses, particularly the ones with the word “vengeance” in them, such as Deuteronomy 32:35, Isaiah 61:2 and Isaiah 63:4 to name a few.

Now, 2 Thessalonians was likely written around 51AD to 52 AD, and Luke, well that’s not so certain but I see some say around 58AD and others around 80-90AD. It seems a consensus though that Luke was written after 2 Thessalonians, so it stands to reason that 2 Thessalonians 1:8 would’ve been known information to the writer of Luke when it was written.

If one places Luke 21:22 taking place in 70AD and 2 Thessalonians 1:8 still future, then “all things written” was not fulfilled. I suppose a dual fulfillment argument could be made that 2 Thessalonians 1:8 gets fulfilled more than once but I think that would be a tough position to support for most views.

So, it seems to me most of us should either say all things written were already fulfilled in 70AD, both Luke 21:22 and 2 Thessalonians 1:8, or that neither were fulfilled in 70AD and they are both still future.

Does anyone have any comments or thoughts on any of this?

1. When did/does the old covenant end?
2. When did/does the new covenant begin?
3. When did/does "the last days" begin?
4. When will "the last days" finish?
5. When is "the last day" of "the last days"?
6. What occurs on "the last day" of "the last days"?
7. When is the "end of the age"?
8. When is the day of redemption?
9. When did/does "this age" arrive?
10. When did/does "this age" end?
11. When did/does the new heavens and new earth arrive?
12. When did the kingdom of God begin?
13. When did/does "the age to come" arrive?
14. When is the day of redemption?
15. Is the second coming of Christ a past event, an ongoing process or a literal physical future climactic event?
16. Is the resurrection of the dead a past event, an ongoing process or a literal physical future climactic event?
17. Is the judgment of all a past event, an ongoing process or a literal physical future climactic event?

 

[Davidpt]

Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:



Many people place 2 Thessalonians 1:8 as taking place at a still future coming of Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8 cross references with quite a few Old Testament passages, and Luke 21:22 also cross references with some of the same verses, particularly the ones with the word “vengeance” in them, such as Deuteronomy 32:35, Isaiah 61:2 and Isaiah 63:4 to name a few.

Now, 2 Thessalonians was likely written around 51AD to 52 AD, and Luke, well that’s not so certain but I see some say around 58AD and others around 80-90AD. It seems a consensus though that Luke was written after 2 Thessalonians, so it stands to reason that 2 Thessalonians 1:8 would’ve been known information to the writer of Luke when it was written.

If one places Luke 21:22 taking place in 70AD and 2 Thessalonians 1:8 still future, then “all things written” was not fulfilled. I suppose a dual fulfillment argument could be made that 2 Thessalonians 1:8 gets fulfilled more than once but I think that would be a tough position to support for most views.

So, it seems to me most of us should either say all things written were already fulfilled in 70AD, both Luke 21:22 and 2 Thessalonians 1:8, or that neither were fulfilled in 70AD and they are both still future.

Does anyone have any comments or thoughts on any of this?

Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Luke 21:23 apparently leads to Luke 21:24---And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations

2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 do not lead to those things. These verses are involving the 2nd coming in the end of this age. Nothing recorded in Luke 21 is involving the 2nd coming in the end of this age until verse 27. Therefore---For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled--is only involving the days leading up to 70 AD and 70 AD itself. Would be my guess.

 

[grafted branch]

A) WRONG

B) WRONG

C) CORRECT

1. The Temple of Matthew 24 is a prophecy of the Temple near the end of the world/age that would have abomination stand it in.​

​

2. The Old Testament Temple (that the literal temple symbolized) was the congregation that fell at the cross. Spiritually! And was rebuilt in Christ, Him being the corner stone of that Temple re-building, in three days. That's why the veil of the Holy Temple was rent/torn from "Top to bottom" the second that Christ died. It signified the fall of the Old Testament Temple, which would be rebuilt in Christ's resurrection.​

​

Nothing to do with 7AD no matter what the group A and B say.​

So are the days of vengeance in Luke 21:22 the same event as the vengeance taking place in 2 Thessalonians 1:8?

 

[grafted branch]

1. When did/does the old covenant end?
2. When did/does the new covenant begin?

Ok, let’s take this one question at a time, starting with point 1. The validity of the old covenant ended at the cross. My question to you is when did the old covenant vanish?

And since point 2 is closely related to point one I’ll give my answer to that also. The new covenant started at the cross. My question to you is why did it seem good to the Holy Spirit to have different burdens on the Jews than the Gentiles after the cross in Acts 15:28?

 

[grafted branch]

Therefore---For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled--is only involving the days leading up to 70 AD and 70 AD itself. Would be my guess.

What is your opinion on why Luke would say “that all things which are written may be fulfilled”? Paul writes about a future vengeance first, then several years later Luke claims For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

 

[WPM]

Ok, let’s take this one question at a time, starting with point 1. The validity of the old covenant ended at the cross. My question to you is when did the old covenant vanish?

And since point 2 is closely related to point one I’ll give my answer to that also. The new covenant started at the cross. My question to you is why did it seem good to the Holy Spirit to have different burdens on the Jews than the Gentiles after the cross in Acts 15:28?

I agree. It vanished in AD70. But the old covenant corpse was dead and was simply needing buried.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

Your guess is as BAD as lacking spiritual discerning on what Christ talked about. Period.

This has nothing to nursing mother fleeing Jerusalem in 70AD! You've got yourself into another blatant contradiction. Do as I suggested we do. Check the Parallel passages.

Mark 13:18-18

• "But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
• And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
• For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be."

So we have undeniable proof that the time of the Sabbath flight, the time of the Winter flight, the time of the women with child, is "IN THOSE DAYS," of the [thlipsis] (translated affliction here), which clearly admitted in Matthew 24 was at the second advent. You see, as my grandmother often said, "your arms are to short to box with God." The Premillennialists and Partial Preterists come up with contradiction after contradiction for one reason. What you are saying is not true at all.

The verse 5-9 of Matthew 24 all speak of the same event.

Matthew 24:5-9
(5) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
(6) And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
(7) For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
(8) All these are the beginning of sorrows.
(9) Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

The verse 9 even confirms this unequivocally by saying "THEN" [tote] or "at that time" they shall deliver you up to be in [thlipsis] or affliction, and shall kill you, and ye shall be hated of all nations for Christ's name's sake. Sounds like Judaea to you, humm? No, God is talking about Christians going into all nations. Selah, being hated for their testimony of Christ.

Perhaps you should stop right here, and do some serious study and THINK before you write, because your posts are becoming more irrational like those claim to be partial preterists, the more scripture is quoted. If Matthew 24:9 refers to the Church and the end time period, then the verses leading up to verse 9 also refer to that period. But to arbitrarily bifurcate these scriptures into so-called "separate eras" without any Biblical warrant whatsoever cannot be justified! Not considering what is plainly written there in Matthew.

Matthew 24:5

• "For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."

The false Christs' and the deception in the Church is concurrent with Apostles being hated, and many being deceived, and they being afflicted for Christ's sake in ALL NATIONS. Christ is talking to the Church here, not the unbelieving Jews. Verses 5-9 are all one period. To say less is ridiculous. So where are the verses that mention the "tribulation of the Jews" in AD 70, Seriously?

So again, the woman and the child are a "FIGURE" of the Church. Go look it up in Galatians carefully. God illustratd in the allegory that the New Testament era, the woman that has more children is a figure of the New Testament Church. Period! Thus God is saying, Woe to the Church! When, right near the Second Coming, not 70AD. Why? Because "she" will be judged of God as the great harlot Babylon that she is (Revelation 17-18). And that is WHY the Elect are commanded to come out of her and flee to the mountains so that they NOT be partaker with her. What is her plagues? Think about it. Do you even understand what mountains the Lord talked about don't you> Did the Lord warn his people in 70AD to go to ANY mountain to avoid being caught by he invading Roman Soldiers? LOL!!!!!

Look, when we read in the CONTEXT and COMPARING Scripture with Scripture, for our interpretation, we have consistency, Not speculations based on writing of Josephus.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Second Coming. Next!

Luke 21:23 apparently leads to Luke 21:24---And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations

Sigh...How do you figure out HOW they fall by ONE sword? What sword is this? And how will THIS SWORD cause many being led away captive into all nations? What sort of captive is this? Spiritually or physically? Do you realize that the nations mean Gentiles? So what does the Gentiles spiritually means to God's eyes? Are the Gentiles considered as unsaved as opposite to those who are Jews inward (saved)? Let read together carefully:

Luke 21:23-24
(23) But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
(24) And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Do you understand this? Doubtfully.

God is talking about the UNFAITHFUL New Testament congregation prior to Second Coming, filled with MANY PEOPLE who have not yet sealed by God, Revelation 9:1-6. They are external part of the covenant (church). They were protected along with the Elect, away from Satan's reach, until all Chosen Elect have been sealed FIRST. THEN...Satan will be loosened and guess what he will come with?
Revelation 6:3-4
(3) And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
(4) And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

Do you understand what “peace” signifies here? Is it peace as the world defines it, or peace as God defines it—which is salvation? Search the Scriptures to find how God defined Peace, not assumptions.

When Satan is loosed, he is permitted to remove peace—not world peace, but salvation—because God has already finished sealing all of His elect (Rev. 7; Rev. 20:3). Scripture says Satan was GIVEN a great sword, and that sword is not military violence, but spiritual deception. By it, God is using Satan with a great sword to cause many professing Christians within the Church who have "not yet sealed by God" are led into spiritual captivity, just as the rest of the nations—the Gentile, unsaved world. Hello?

At that point, the Church has already falls into apostasy and is trampled underfoot. Satan rules through false prophets and false christs, not over the world alone, but within the visible Church, until the appointed time of his authority is fulfilled. This is exactly what Luke 21:23–24 is describing. Selah.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with the popular 70 AD narrative.ddddd

You have the wrong city, the wrong people, the wrong sword, the wrong land—everything misplaced.

The “days of vengeance” in the Olivet Discourse refer to God’s judgment upon the New Testament congregation when she falls into apostasy and desolation, not to ethnic Jerusalem in 70 AD. In case you already forget, the Old Testament congregation had already fallen at the Cross, and the authority of the Kingdom was transferred to the Church when Christ rose on the third day (Matt. 21:43; John 2:19–21).

This is a spiritual judgment of the unfaithful church, not a historical footnote.

 

[grafted branch]

I agree. It vanished in AD70. But the old covenant corpse was dead and was simply needing buried.

What about Acts 15:28? Why would it seem good to the Holy Spirit to have different burdens instead of just burying old the corpse?

 

[TribulationSigns]

So are the days of vengeance in Luke 21:22 the same event as the vengeance taking place in 2 Thessalonians 1:8?

What part of "C" do you not understand? Weren't you the one who wrote "C" as:

"Luke 21:22 happens future, 2 Thessalonians 1:8 happens future."

Of course they are the one and the same, speaking of the judgment of the unfaithful New Testament congregation.

 

[WPM]

What about Acts 15:28? Why would it seem good to the Holy Spirit to have different burdens instead of just burying old the corpse?

These were wise recommendations.

 

[grafted branch]

What part of "C" do you not understand? Weren't you the one who wrote "C" as:

"Luke 21:22 happens future, 2 Thessalonians 1:8 happens future."

Of course they are the one and the same, speaking of the judgment of the unfaithful New Testament congregation.

Ok, thanks. I had to ask because @Truth7t7 believes C like you do but doesn’t think they are the same event.

At least you are consistent.