All things written may be fulfilled

[Davidpt]

The scripture in context shows time is involved in fulfillment, you picked one verse Luke 21:22 and suggest it's fulfillment is immediate "Wrong"

Scripture clearly teaches that a 42 month period in "Great Tribulation" will see Jerusalem trodden under foot as seen in Revelation 11:2 in fulfilling the time of the gentiles, biblical "Context"

Revelation 11:2KJV
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Luke 21:20-24KJV
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

How do you figure your interpretation allows for the following--and shall be led away captive into all nations(Luke 21:24)?

 

[Truth7t7]

How do you figure your interpretation allows for the following--and shall be led away captive into all nations(Luke 21:24)?

It's future literal captivity

 

[Douggg]

It's future literal captivity

No.

In the end times, in Ezekiel 39, Gog/Magog will be destroyed.

Then 7 months of Israel burying the dead of Gog's army, during the first part of the 7 years of Ezekiel 39:9,

Then at the end of the 7 years, in Ezekiel 39:17-20, the birds feast on the dead of the Armageddon armies,

Then in Ezekiel 39:21-29, Jesus Himself speaking in the text having returned to this earth.

 

[Truth7t7]

No.

In the end times, in Ezekiel 39, Gog/Magog will be destroyed.

Then 7 months of Israel burying the dead of Gog's army, during the first part of the 7 years of Ezekiel 39:9,

Then at the end of the 7 years, in Ezekiel 39:17-20, the birds feast on the dead of the Armageddon armies,

Then in Ezekiel 39:21-29, Jesus Himself speaking in the text having returned to this earth.

The war seen in Ezekiel chapter 39 was fought "Long Ago" with wooden weapons of warfare, bows, arrows, spears, your claim its a future war is laughable

 

[Douggg]

The war seen in Ezekiel chapter 39 was fought "Long Ago" with wooden weapons of warfare, bows, arrows, spears, your claim its a future war is laughable

No, the Gog/Magog attack on Israel is in the latter years, latter days. Ezekiel 38:8 and Ezekiel 38:16.

Also there is no huge burial site of Gog's army anywhere in Israel - because the event has not happened yet.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:



Many people place 2 Thessalonians 1:8 as taking place at a still future coming of Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8 cross references with quite a few Old Testament passages, and Luke 21:22 also cross references with some of the same verses, particularly the ones with the word “vengeance” in them, such as Deuteronomy 32:35, Isaiah 61:2 and Isaiah 63:4 to name a few.

Now, 2 Thessalonians was likely written around 51AD to 52 AD, and Luke, well that’s not so certain but I see some say around 58AD and others around 80-90AD. It seems a consensus though that Luke was written after 2 Thessalonians, so it stands to reason that 2 Thessalonians 1:8 would’ve been known information to the writer of Luke when it was written.

If one places Luke 21:22 taking place in 70AD and 2 Thessalonians 1:8 still future, then “all things written” was not fulfilled. I suppose a dual fulfillment argument could be made that 2 Thessalonians 1:8 gets fulfilled more than once but I think that would be a tough position to support for most views.

So, it seems to me most of us should either say all things written were already fulfilled in 70AD, both Luke 21:22 and 2 Thessalonians 1:8, or that neither were fulfilled in 70AD and they are both still future.

Does anyone have any comments or thoughts on any of this?

The context of 2 Thessalonians 1:8 is completely different than the context of Luke 21:22. In Luke 21:22, the context has to do with God's wrath and destruction happening in Jerusalem with Jesus warning believers in Judea to flee to the mountains before it happens. And that had absolutely nothing to do with the second coming of Christ. But, in 2 Thessalonians 1:8, Paul says nothing about an event happening only in Jerusalem. Christ's return is a global event which other scriptures like Matthew 24:35-39 and 2 Peter 3:10-13 make very clear.

Just because you see the word "vengeance" in two verses doesn't make them automatically directly related. Luke 21:22 refers to a local event where God took vengeance on unbelieving Jews and 2 Thessalonians 1:8 refers to a global event when Jesus returns in the future when He will take vengeance on all those who don't know God and who do not obey the gospel of Christ.

 

[Douggg]

Just because you see the word "vengeance" in two verses doesn't make them automatically directly related. Luke 21:22 refers to a local event where God took vengeance on unbelieving Jews and 2 Thessalonians 1:8 refers to a global event when Jesus returns in the future when He will take vengeance on all those who don't know God and who do not obey the gospel of Christ.

No. Luke 21:22 refers to a local (not global) event where the Romans took vengeance on Jews who were rebelling against their occupation and rule over them.

 

[grafted branch]

The context of 2 Thessalonians 1:8 is completely different than the context of Luke 21:22. In Luke 21:22, the context has to do with God's wrath and destruction happening in Jerusalem with Jesus warning believers in Judea to flee to the mountains before it happens. And that had absolutely nothing to do with the second coming of Christ. But, in 2 Thessalonians 1:8, Paul says nothing about an event happening only in Jerusalem. Christ's return is a global event which other scriptures like Matthew 24:35-39 and 2 Peter 3:10-13 make very clear.

Just because you see the word "vengeance" in two verses doesn't make them automatically directly related. Luke 21:22 refers to a local event where God took vengeance on unbelieving Jews and 2 Thessalonians 1:8 refers to a global event when Jesus returns in the future when He will take vengeance on all those who don't know God and who do not obey the gospel of Christ.

What about the statement “that all things which are written may be fulfilled”? Were all things written concerning the days of vengeance fulfilled or not?

 

[Truth7t7]

No, the Gog/Magog attack on Israel is in the latter years, latter days. Ezekiel 38:8 and Ezekiel 38:16.

Also there is no huge burial site of Gog's army anywhere in Israel - because the event has not happened yet.

Will there be a future war fought with bows, arrows, and spears?

"Absolutely Not"!

Bows don't miraculously turn into M-16 Rifles, Spears don't turn into RPG's, it's that simple

 

[Douggg]

Will there be a future war fought with bows, arrows, and spears?

"Absolutely Not"!

Bows don't miraculously turn into M-16 Rifles, Spears don't turn into RPG's, it's that simple

bows, arrows, spears represent war implements.

 

[claninja]

That’s right, unless one wants to try to make the case that Paul gave an entirely new revelation in 2 Thessalonians 1, Luke 21:22 tells us when the OT prophesied days of vengeance gets fulfilled.

We could even make it stricter. Let’s argue for a minute that Luke 21:22 only refers to OT oracles that pertain solely to vengeance on apostate Israel, and not vengeance against mankind in general, which i think is reasonable. In otherwords, the destruction of Jerusalem and temple in 70ad completely fulfills God’s vengeance and wrath on apostate Israel. In my opinion, this would be consistent with first century apostate Israel being charged with all the righteous bloodshed (Luke 11:50), and the wrath that Jesus said would be poured out on their generation (Luke 11:51).


Now that being said, in 2 Thessalonians 1, Paul talks about the Thessalonians themselves suffering due to persecution and that God will repay those who are persecuting them - inflicting “vengeance” on them in the form of eternal punishment.
So who was persecuting the Thessalonians? According to acts 17, apostate Israel, at least in part

So, does first century apostate Israel face the vengeance of God twice? Once in 70ad and then once again at the final judgement?

 

[grafted branch]

We could even make it stricter. Let’s argue for a minute that Luke 21:22 only refers to OT oracles that pertain solely to vengeance on apostate Israel, and not vengeance against mankind in general, which i think is reasonable. In otherwords, the destruction of Jerusalem and temple in 70ad completely fulfills God’s vengeance and wrath on apostate Israel. In my opinion, this would be consistent with first century apostate Israel being charged with all the righteous bloodshed (Luke 11:50), and the wrath that Jesus said would be poured out on their generation (Luke 11:51).


Now that being said, in 2 Thessalonians 1, Paul talks about the Thessalonians themselves suffering due to persecution and that God will repay those who are persecuting them - inflicting “vengeance” on them in the form of eternal punishment.
So who was persecuting the Thessalonians? According to acts 17, apostate Israel, at least in part

So, does first century apostate Israel face the vengeance of God twice? Once in 70ad and then once again at the final judgement?

Excellent analysis.

I was thinking that some people here are going to restrict the vengeance and it’s fulfilled in Luke 21:22 to apostate Israel only, which I would agree with, as you do, that it’s a reasonable argument. I was looking at the various OT verses about vengeance and was interested in how someone would try to divide them up (putting some in the past and some in the future) when those verses cross reference with both Luke 21:22 and 2 Thessalonians 1:8.

You’ve put forth a great point that I hadn’t considered, and it really strengthens the case for both verses referring to the same vengeance.

 

[Truth7t7]

Luke 21:22 refers to a local event where God took vengeance on unbelieving Jews

No Luke 21:22 wasn't fulfilled in 70 AD with the suggested past tense word "Took" is being used

Luke 21:22 is a future event unfulfilled, the generation present to see Jerusalem surrounded by armies will also be present to witness the Lord's second coming

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No. Luke 21:22 refers to a local (not global) event where the Romans took vengeance on Jews who were rebelling against their occupation and rule over them.

Scripture describes it as God's wrath, but you don't know that because you are not interpreting scripture with scripture here. God used the Romans to punish Jewish unbelievers.

This passage is about that same local event...

Luke 19:41 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

Jesus clearly indicated that the unbelieving Jews would be destroyed because they "did not know the time of your visitation". So, their destruction was a result of their rebellion against the Son of God. It was God who arranged for them to be punished for their overall rebellion and rejection of Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

The following passage shows that as well...

Matthew 22:1 And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. 4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.” ’ 5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. 7 But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

The king here represents God and it clearly shows that He is the One who had the unbelieving Jews and their city destroyed by the Roman armies. He can use any means to punish people that He wants to, as evidenced by the following passage...

Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What about the statement “that all things which are written may be fulfilled”? Were all things written concerning the days of vengeance fulfilled or not?

Yes. The days of vengeance refer to vengeance against Jewish unbelievers in particular and does not refer to the day when Jesus will return in the future. Why do you not differentiate between what happened in 70 AD, a local event, and the future return of Christ which is a global event? Both preterists like you and futurists make a big mistake by thinking that Jesus only talked about things related to 70 AD or only about things related to the future in the Olivet Discourse. That is just not the case.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No Luke 21:22 wasn't fulfilled in 70 AD with the suggested past tense word "Took" is being used

Luke 21:22 is a future event unfulfilled, the generation present to see Jerusalem surrounded by armies will also be present to witness the Lord's second coming

Why would Jesus care about taking vengeance on people surrounding modern day Jerusalem? His enemies are those who oppose Him and His church around the world, not the Jews in Jerusalem.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We could even make it stricter. Let’s argue for a minute that Luke 21:22 only refers to OT oracles that pertain solely to vengeance on apostate Israel, and not vengeance against mankind in general, which i think is reasonable. In otherwords, the destruction of Jerusalem and temple in 70ad completely fulfills God’s vengeance and wrath on apostate Israel. In my opinion, this would be consistent with first century apostate Israel being charged with all the righteous bloodshed (Luke 11:50), and the wrath that Jesus said would be poured out on their generation (Luke 11:51).


Now that being said, in 2 Thessalonians 1, Paul talks about the Thessalonians themselves suffering due to persecution and that God will repay those who are persecuting them - inflicting “vengeance” on them in the form of eternal punishment.
So who was persecuting the Thessalonians? According to acts 17, apostate Israel, at least in part

So, does first century apostate Israel face the vengeance of God twice? Once in 70ad and then once again at the final judgement?

How would God's wrath against Jews in Jerusalem be a punishment of the Jews who were persecuting Christians in Thessalonica? That makes no sense. The Lord Jesus Christ has not yet been revealed from heaven to take vengeance on ALL of His enemies in the world and that is what 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 is about.

 

[Truth7t7]

Why would Jesus care about taking vengeance on people surrounding modern day Jerusalem? His enemies are those who oppose Him and His church around the world, not the Jews in Jerusalem.

The very future generation that will witness the future signs will also be eyewitnesses of the second coming of Jesus in the heavens

Did the generation of 70AD look up and witness the return of Jesus "No"

Your claim of 70AD fulfillment is 100% false, will you fight against God's very simple words of truth before your eyes?

Luke 21:20-28KJV
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The very future generation that will witness the future signs will also be eyewitnesses of the second coming of Jesus in the heavens

Did the generation of 70AD look up and witness the return of Jesus "No"

We were talking about Luke 21:22. I did not say anything about the second coming of Jesus already being fulfilled. If you want to talk to your preterist straw man instead of talking to me, then that's your choice to waste your time doing that. You're not addressing my argument.

Your claim of 70AD fulfillment is 100% false, will you fight against God's very simple words of truth before your eyes?

LOL. So, it's just a coincidence that what is described in Luke 21:20-24 happened in 70 AD? LOL. Your words mean nothing to me. Both futurists like you and preterists do not understand that Jesus talked both about a local event in Jerusalem and the global event of His second coming in the Olivet Discourse. When you don't recognize that you end up with nonsensical interpretations of some of the verses, resulting in thinking that Jesus would be upset about people surrounding modern day Jerusalem, consisting mostly of people who reject Him.

Luke 21:20-28KJV
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

He is talking about the global signs there in relation His global second coming being near. Luke 21:20-24 is a local event. You're missing that there is what Jesus called "the times of the Gentiles" in between the local event of 70 AD and His second coming.

 

[claninja]

Just to clarify, is your question locational? As in the wrathful vengeance taking place in Jerusalem vs Thessalonica?