All things written may be fulfilled

[Spiritual Israelite]

Historically, it was Passover as to why so many Jews were In Jerusalem during the siege of 70ad. Jesus called this siege by the Roman’s “wrath upon this people” , and “the days of VENGEANCE to fulfill all that is written.” The Jews, who rejected the gospel, and who persecuted the Thessalonians, would have likely travelled to Jerusalem for the Passover during this time, as require by law, and thus facing the wrath and days of vengeance that fulfill all that is written.

So if 2 Thessalonians 1 has nothing to do with Luke 21 and 70ad, then these unbelieving Jews, that persecuted the Thessalonians, potentially face vengeance and wrath twice.

Why is the idea of them facing vengeance and wrath twice something that you can't allow? They faced physical vengeance and wrath in 70 AD. But, do you not believe that those unbelieving Jews will have to give an account of themselves to Jesus when He comes in the future, after which they will be cast into "everlasting fire" for "everlasting punishment" (Matthew 25:31-46)?

The first vengeance in 70 ad to fulfill all that is written, and then a 2nd vengeance at the coming of Christ?

Yes, of course. Why can you not understand that? Jesus Himself said He will be coming with His angels and at that point all unbelievers from all time will have to stand before Him and give an account of themselves and then will be judged and face their eternal sentencing of "everlasting punishment" (Matthew 25:46). Why do you act as if history ended in 70 AD?

Since the first fulfills “all that is written” the 2nd could potentially have nothing to do with the OT, but instead, new revelation from Paul that goes beyond OT?

Yes. The second coming of Christ itself is never specifically referenced in the OT. That is a NT prophecy.

 

[Truth7t7]

LOL. But, you are completely unable to refute it, so I have no reason to take you seriously. You have the tribulation described in Luke 21:20-24 occurring just before Jesus returns, right? How can the times of the Gentiles follow His return? Jesus clearly referred to a time that He called "the times of the Gentiles" that would follow the time of tribulation that He described. How do you reconcile that with your futurist understanding of the passage?


Revelation 11:2 has nothing to do with Luke 21:20-24. That passage is referring to the church (the temple of God is the church) and to the heathen who are outside the church. The Greek word "ethnos" is translated as Gentiles in Revelation 11:2, but it also can mean heathen. Luke 21:20-24 is talking about non-Jews (Gentiles) trampling on Jerusalem after being destroyed, which is what has been happening since 70 AD. You are not reading the scriptures carefully, so you are missing the context. You are seeing similar words being used and making assumptions that the passages are related without even thinking about the context of each passage.


It's sad that you don't look at the scripture in context because of your extreme hyper-literal bias. You act as if it's evil for anything to have been fulfilled in 70 AD. What a joke! Just because Jesus talked some about the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple buildings in 70 AD doesn't mean that He didn't also talk a lot about things related to His future second coming at the end of the age. The Olivet Discourse is primarily about that, but it's SAD for anyone to deny that He said anything about the destruction of the temple buildings and Jerusalem in 70 AD when Him saying that the temple buildings would be destroyed was what spawned the Olivet Discourse in the first place.


There's no direct relation between those verses. Luke 21:24 is CLEARLY talking about earthly Jerusalem. In Revelation, the holy city is NOT earthly Jerusalem, but rather heavenly Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), which represents the church.

Luke 21:24 & Revelation 11:2 are parallel teachings of the very same future event, your denial of this fact doesn't allow for further comment on the issue

The time of the gentiles didn't take place in 70AD and your false claim there is a 2,000 year continous time of the gentiles up to the second coming, your teaching is outright Malarkey!

Revelation 11:2 clearly declares that the time of the gentiles will be 42 future months that ends in the second coming seen in Revelation 11:15

Sad part about it is, you will continue to falsely teach of 70AD fulfillment and the phony 2,000 year gap "Sad"!

Luke 21:24KJV
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Revelation 11:2KJV
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

 

[Douggg]

Sad part about it is, you will continue to falsely teach of 70AD fulfillment and the phony 2,000 year gap "Sad"!

I think the point being made is that the time of the gentiles began in 70 AD, with the expulsion of the Jews from the land.

There are couple of possible interpretations as to what is the end of the time of the gentiles.

1. the interpretation that when Israel became a nation again in the land in 1948, that ended the time of the gentiles.

2. the interpretation that the times of the gentiles is not over until the 42 months of Revelation 11:2 is over (your interpretation).

Either interpretation is roughly 2000 years from 70 AD.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Luke 21:24 & Revelation 11:2 are parallel teachings of the very same future event, your denial of this fact doesn't allow for further comment on the issue

Your inability to address what I said about those verses says it all. You didn't even attempt to address what I said. You know that you can't refute what I said or else you would have at least tried to do so. Instead, you just repeated what you already said before, which I already refuted.

 

[WPM]

Ok, let’s look at an OT verse that cross references with both Luke 21:22 and 2 Thessalonians 1:8.

Isaiah 63:4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

This verse contains “the day of vengeance” and “the year of my redeemed is come”. Luke 21:22 contains “the days of vengeance” and Luke 21:28 has “your redemption draweth nigh”.

Since you have Luke 21:22 and 2 Thessalonians 1:8 as entirely different days of vengeance, which one is Isaiah 63:4 referring to?


Why would you even ask that? You should know by now what the answer is.


It’s about corroboration. If a view has all the days of vengeance happening and being fulfilled at the same time then that view has more scriptures corroborating with each other than your view does. Corroboration is an important thing, I’ve seen you and especially @WPM hammer on that point over and over.

There is zero corroboration in your thesis. Those two passages are talking about to different audiences about two different days. 1 is clearly local and relates to ethnic Israel 2000 years ago. The other relates to all mankind and comes at the 1 future coming of Christ. The day of redemption is shown to be the second coming- the redemption of our bodies. This has not occurred. This forbids Preterism.

 

[Truth7t7]

I think the point being made is that the time of the gentiles began in 70 AD, with the expulsion of the Jews from the land.

There are couple of possible interpretations as to what is the end of the time of the gentiles.

1. the interpretation that when Israel became a nation again in the land in 1948, that ended the time of the gentiles.

2. the interpretation that the times of the gentiles is not over until the 42 months of Revelation 11:2 is over (your interpretation).

Either interpretation is roughly 2000 years from 70 AD.

Fact is 70AD had no part whatsoever in fulfillment of the Olivet discourse

Daniel's future AOD starts the 42 month tribulation and gentiles taking Jerusalem for 42 months, all events are future unfulfilled that will be finished at the Lord's future 2nd coming in fire (The End)

 

[Truth7t7]

Your inability to address what I said about those verses says it all. You didn't even attempt to address what I said. You know that you can't refute what I said or else you would have at least tried to do so. Instead, you just repeated what you already said before, which I already refuted.

The gentile fulfillment didn't start in 70AD, this hasn't been ongoing for 2,000 years as you claim in filling the gap

The pre-millennials have their 2,000 year gap between the 69th-70th week of Daniel, you falsely place this gap at 70AD until the future second coming

It's pretty hard to have a (fulfilling of the gentiles) in 70AD as you claim, and you laughably claim its still ongoing today and will commence at the 2nd coming, "Fairy Tale"!

Yes you use the phony fairy tale 2,000 year gap in a desperate attempt to make your belief valid regarding the fulfilling of the gentiles, and connecting 70AD to the end in the second coming

I know exactly what your belief is and the 2,000 year gap, it's Malarkey and you know it

 

[Douggg]

Fact is 70AD had no part whatsoever in fulfillment of the Olivet discourse

Daniel's future AOD starts the 42 month tribulation and gentiles taking Jerusalem for 42 months, all events are future unfulfilled that will be finished at the Lord's future 2nd coming in fire (The End)

Jesus in Matthew 24:2 was talking about the temple. Then when He and the disciples got to the Mt of Olives in Matthew 24:3, the disciples asked Jesus about when the temple would be destroyed... And also about the sign of His coming, and about the end of the world.

Matthew 24:
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

So verses 4-13 are about the destruction of the temple, a near term event that took place in 70 AD.

 

[Davidpt]

The gentile fulfillment didn't start in 70AD, this hasn't been ongoing for 2,000 years as you claim in filling the gap

The pre-millennials have their 2,000 year gap between the 69th-70th week of Daniel, you falsely place this gap at 70AD until the future second coming

It's pretty hard to have a a (fulfilling of the gentiles) in 70AD as you claim, and you laughably claim its still ongoing today and will commence at the 2nd coming, "Fairy Tale"!

Yes you use the phony fairy tale 2,000 year gap in a desperate attempt to make your belief valid regarding the fulfilling of the gentiles

I know exactly what your belief is and the 2,000 year gap, it's Malarkey and you know it

There are only Jews and Gentiles. For the past 2K years since 70 AD, what times have we been in? The times of the Gentiles? Or the times of the Jews. Be sure to look outside in the real world before answering that. Then ask yourself who has been dominating the world for the past 2K years? Jews or Gentiles? Then put 2 and 2 together and quit letting doctrinal bias' cloud your thinking.

 

[Truth7t7]

Jesus in Matthew 24:2 was talking about the temple. Then when He and the disciples got to the Mt of Olives in Matthew 24:3, the disciples asked Jesus about when the temple would be destroyed... And also about the sign of His coming, and about the end of the world.

Matthew 24:
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

So verses 4-13 are about the destruction of the temple, a near term event that took place in 70 AD.




View attachment 76305

The Lord spoke of the temple of his body being destroyed, not a temple of stone that took 46 years to build in Jerusalem

Matthew Chapter 24 had absolutely no fulfillment in 70AD

John 2:19-22KJV
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

 

[Douggg]

The Lord spoke of the temple of his body being destroyed, yes the temple to be destroyed was the Lord's Body, not a temple of stone that took 46 years to build in Jerusalem

Jesus was not referring to his body in Matthew 24. But the temple made of stones.

Matthew 24:
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

 

[Truth7t7]

There are only Jews and Gentiles. For the past 2K years since 70 AD, what times have we been in? The times of the Gentiles? Or the times of the Jews. Be sure to look outside in the real world before answering that. Then ask yourself who has been dominating the world for the past 2K years? Jews or Gentiles? Then put 2 and 2 together and quit letting doctrinal bias' cloud your thinking.

We are in the Church age, the covenant of the Lord's blood shed upon Calvary

Don't let your bias lead you to believe that Revelation 11:2 isn't true, giving the time of the gentiles and Jerusalem at 42 months just as the scripture states below

It's beyond laughable to think a person would claim this started in 70AD and will be completed at the second coming, now that's a bunch of Malarkey!

Revelation 11:2KJV
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

 

[Truth7t7]

Jesus was not referring to his body in Matthew 24. But the temple made of stones.

Matthew 24:
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

I Strongly Disagree, the temple to be destroyed was his body just as the scripture teaches

Matthew Chapter 24 had absolutely no fulfillment in 70AD

John 2:19-22KJV
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

 

[Douggg]

I Strongly Disagree, the temple to be destroyed was his body just as the scripture teaches

Matthew Chapter 24 had absolutely no fulfillment in 70AD

John 2:19-22KJV
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Jesus said in Matthew 24:
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

The temple of stone that Jesus departed from in verse 1 was destroyed in 70 AD. A historic fact.

 

[Truth7t7]

Jesus said in Matthew 24:
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

The temple of stone that Jesus departed from in verse 1 was destroyed in 70 AD. A historic fact.

When Jesus died on the cross of Calvary and his body was (destroyed/died) the veil in the temple holy of holiest was torn from top to the bottom, at this time the temple was gone, not one stone upon another, removed in the spiritual "Gone"!

Jesus Is now the mediator between man and God, no temple in Jerusalem, no high priest needed

 

[Douggg]

When Jesus died on the cross of Calvary and his body was (destroyed/died) the veil in the temple holy of holiest was torn from top to the bottom, at this time the temple was gone, not one stone upon another, removed in the spiritual "Gone"!

Jesus Is now the mediator between man and God, no temple in Jerusalem, no high priest needed

No, the temple was not "Gone!", spiritual or otherwise.

Here is what the bible says in Luke 24:50-53.

50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.

51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy :

53 And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.

 

[Truth7t7]

No, the temple was not "Gone!", spiritual or otherwise.

Here is what the bible says in Luke 24:50-53.

50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.

51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy :

53 And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.

After the death, burial, resurrection, the temple was gone, Jesus Christ replaced the temple in Jerusalem, he is the believers high priest, the mediator between man and God

It's All Yours

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Douggg]

After the death, burial, resurrection, the temple was gone, Jesus Christ replaced the temple in Jerusalem, he is the believers high priest, the mediator between man and God

It's All Yours

Jesus Is The Lord

The issue is not Jesus being the high priest of believers.

The issue is the temple of stone that was destroyed in 70 AD. The same temple that disciples were continually in, in Luke 24:53, praising and blessing God.

50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.

51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy :

53 And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.

 

[Truth7t7]

The issue is not Jesus being the high priest of believers.

The issue is the temple of stone that was destroyed in 70 AD. The same temple that disciples were continually in, in Luke 24:53, praising and blessing God.

50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.

51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy :

53 And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.

Matthew Chapter 24 had absolutely no fulfillment in 70AD

John 2:19-22KJV
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes. The second coming of Christ itself is never specifically referenced in the OT. That is a NT prophecy.

Your Claim Is "False"

Zechariah 14:1-12KJV
1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

1 Thessalonians 3:13KJV
13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.