No Escape : From Hell

[walter]

Completely not true. Scripture does not speak for itself otherwise you and I and millions of Christians before us would not be debating what Scripture means. Scripture doesn't even say what you have written: "the words in the Bible, they speak for themselves!" Your ignorance of Scripture is astounding. But I don't blame you. I blame the men you blindly follow. Or is this another AI cut and paste?

2 Timothy was not written to you or me or the BILLIONS of Christians that have lived since Christ died. 2 Timothy is a pastoral letter written by Paul to Timothy who is a bishop of The Church. That letter are instructions to pastors/elders. If you look at the passage in context AND in context to other passages in Scripture, you will see that Scripture is NOT the only form of reproof, correction or instruction of righteousness. But you and @Aunty Jane will never see that since you have drunk too much Kool aide. If 2 Timothy was written to me then you should be listening to me instead of the Kool-Aid man that you follow.

Mary

I have an idea, maybe you have a better idea please let me know. What if we both just give comments that reflect some of our strongest reasons why our view makes sense? And then after we have both listed our Strongest reasons, we can both objectively take a look at all the reasons that we both have explained.

Instead of words and questions about every little thing. We both explain our strongest reasons for our different conclusions.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I have an idea, maybe you have a better idea please let me know. What if we both just give comments that reflect some of our strongest reasons why our view makes sense? And then after we have both listed our Strongest reasons, we can both objectively take a look at all the reasons that we both have explained.

Instead of words and questions about every little thing. We both explain our strongest reasons for our different conclusions.

Nice response Walter....we should allow the Bible to speak for itself and not allow church leaders to dictate what we believe. We have to know the truth for ourselves, not relying on an apostate church system to furnish us with mistranslated and misunderstood verses....with no “big picture” to guide them.

In the case of those who subscribe to Roman Catholic doctrine, which was carried over into Protestantism minus the more extreme beliefs (which had no basis in Scripture at all) we should be able to see clearly where the errors are. The Bible is one story with one author and one truth....the divided churches of Christendom cannot all be right but they could all be wrong....as Jesus demonstrated with the Pharisees.

Those on the wrong side of that fence did not fare well......and there were only two sides...the right side and the wrong side of the Jewish faith. People had to choose which side they supported.....and so do we.
It didn’t make them popular.

Jesus said...
“If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19  If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you. 20  Keep in mind the word I said to you: A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have observed my word, they will also observe yours. 21  But they will do all these things against you on account of my name, because they do not know the One who sent me.” (John 15:18-21)

“Happy are you when people reproach you and persecute you and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against you for my sake. 12  Rejoice and be overjoyed, since your reward is great in the heavens, for in that way they persecuted the prophets prior to you.” (Matt 5:11-12)

So Christians were to be identified by the fact that they were “no part of the world” and that they would be persecuted for not complying with those who are. (John 18:36)

 

[walter]

Nice response Walter....we should allow the Bible to speak for itself and not allow church leaders to dictate what we believe. We have to know the truth for ourselves, not relying on an apostate church system to furnish us with mistranslated and misunderstood verses....with no “big picture” to guide them.

In the case of those who subscribe to Roman Catholic doctrine, which was carried over into Protestantism minus the more extreme beliefs (which had no basis in Scripture at all) we should be able to see clearly where the errors are. The Bible is one story with one author and one truth....the divided churches of Christendom cannot all be right but they could all be wrong....as Jesus demonstrated with the Pharisees.

Those on the wrong side of that fence did not fare well......and there were only two sides...the right side and the wrong side of the Jewish faith. People had to choose which side they supported.....and so do we.
It didn’t make them popular.

Jesus said...
“If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19  If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you. 20  Keep in mind the word I said to you: A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have observed my word, they will also observe yours. 21  But they will do all these things against you on account of my name, because they do not know the One who sent me.” (John 15:18-21)

“Happy are you when people reproach you and persecute you and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against you for my sake. 12  Rejoice and be overjoyed, since your reward is great in the heavens, for in that way they persecuted the prophets prior to you.” (Matt 5:11-12)

So Christians were to be identified by the fact that they were “no part of the world” and that they would be persecuted for not complying with those who are. (John 18:36)

My mother's whole family heritage is from Italy and they are all Catholics, and my father's whole family heritage is Protestants, Jesus spoke about the two greatest commandments and that is my focus, and I try to say as little as possible so that the scriptures do 99% of the explaining. Everybody has a different style, this is just the style I am comfortable with, and I am sure I Fail at it many times.

 

[walter]

If anyone has any advice please let me know, this seems like a reasonable conclusion to me, what is your advice please?

Would you consider it wrong of me if I considered these words 100% Accurate?
"Destroy both soul and body in hell" - Matthew 10:28
"Will disappear nowhere to be found" - Psalm 37:10, 37:35-36; Isaiah 41:12
"Eternal Destruction" - 2 Thessalonians 1:9
"the wicked will be cut off from the earth" - Proverbs 2:22
"Will not see life" - John 3:36
"Eternal punishment" - Matthew 25:46
"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love". - 1 John 4:8 (NIV):

And these words are Symbolic?
"The smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever" - Revelation 14:11 [ How is this painful? "smokey torment ascending forever and ever"? ]
"And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." - Revelation 20:10, James 3:6
[ At Revelation 20:10 it sounds like it's talking about the Devil, the Beast and the False Prophet, doesn't it to you? ]

 

[walter]

I cannot fully explain this subject maybe someone else can?

"Destroy both soul and body in hell" - Matthew 10:28
"Will disappear nowhere to be found" - Psalm 37:10, 37:35-36; Isaiah 41:12
"Eternal Destruction" - 2 Thessalonians 1:9
"the wicked will be cut off from the earth" - Proverbs 2:22
"Will not see life" - John 3:36
"Eternal punishment" - Matthew 25:46
"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love". - 1 John 4:8 (NIV):

"The smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever" - Revelation 14:11
"And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." - Rev 20:10
"The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course of one’s life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell." - James 3:6


Since each one of these Scriptures are valuable to our understanding, how do we include each one of these Scriptures in our Conclusion?

 

[Hiddenthings]

I cannot fully explain this subject maybe someone else can?

"Destroy both soul and body in hell" - Matthew 10:28

Hi Walter, unfortunately this subject has been made more difficult than it is due to the immortality of the soul dogma.

Since both soul and body can be destroyed in hell (Gehenna - the garbage dump outside Jerusalem), this shows that the soul is as perishable as the body, as both can be destroyed in the same place. Is this the conclusion that proponents of the immortal soul want to draw from this passage?

The answer is no.

Once you grasp the varying nuances of the word soul, which often simply means life, everything falls into place, and we can rest comfortably at night.

 

[walter]

Hi Walter, unfortunately this subject has been made more difficult than it is due to the immortality of the soul dogma.

Since both soul and body can be destroyed in hell (Gehenna - the garbage dump outside Jerusalem), this shows that the soul is as perishable as the body, as both can be destroyed in the same place. Is this the conclusion that proponents of the immortal soul want to draw from this passage?

The answer is no.

Once you grasp the varying nuances of the word soul, which often simply means life, everything falls into place, and we can rest comfortably at night.

So in your understanding "will not see life" "death" "destroyed" wouldn't be able to feel any pain anyways?

 

[Hiddenthings]

Since each one of these Scriptures are valuable to our understanding, how do we include each one of these Scriptures in our Conclusion?

Each verse needs to be considered in its own context before trying to seek an interpretation / understanding.

In relation to Matt 10:28 its clear the Master is speaking to the whole of life, feelings, emotions, intellect - everything!

“Even the very hairs of your head are all numbered” is a phrase used to signify a long life. See Luke 12:7; 21:18; Matthew 10:30; Acts 27:34; 1 Samuel 14:45; 2 Samuel 14:11.


Correct!

 

[Hiddenthings]

So in your understanding "will not see life" "death" "destroyed" wouldn't be able to feel any pain anyways?

SOUL - The word soul (Greek psuchē) primarily means life, including future life (John 12:25; Colossians 3:3-4 – “life hidden with Christ in God”).

No one can prevent this life from being granted by Christ (John 10:27-29; cf. Luke 12:4-5).

In some contexts, soul also refers to the mind, innermost feelings, or disposition.

So, to lose the life promised in Christ is to remain dead, dust!

Simply put: “Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot destroy the soul” (Matt. 10:28). For the disciple, life is “hidden with Christ in God” (Colossians 3:3). Though men may take the body, in the resurrection this life will be restored to it (Colossians 3:4).

No fear of what man can do to you! God in his power is able to restore the body, mind and life of a person upon its resurrection to judgement and God willing, life.

 

[Hiddenthings]

The Greek word psuchē, translated as “soul” in this verse, carries the meaning of “life.” In Matthew 16:25, psuchē is translated as “life”: “For whoever wants to save his life [psuchē] will lose it, and whoever loses his life [psuchē] for my sake will find it.” (In the RSV, psuchē is rendered “life” in v. 26: “For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life?”). The similarity of context suggests that in Matthew 10:28, psuchē should likewise be understood as “life” rather than as an immortal soul.

@walter if you test the context of every occurrence where immortal soul is forced you eventually draw to the conclusion it's not taught anywhere in the Bible.

 

[walter]

The Greek word psuchē, translated as “soul” in this verse, carries the meaning of “life.” In Matthew 16:25, psuchē is translated as “life”: “For whoever wants to save his life [psuchē] will lose it, and whoever loses his life [psuchē] for my sake will find it.” (In the RSV, psuchē is rendered “life” in v. 26: “For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life?”). The similarity of context suggests that in Matthew 10:28, psuchē should likewise be understood as “life” rather than as an immortal soul.

@walter if you test the context of every occurrence where immortal soul is forced you eventually draw to the conclusion it's not taught anywhere in the Bible.

I think I agree with you on most things.. I believe the soul and the body are destroyed in hell, and at that point they no longer feel anything!

 

[Hiddenthings]

I think I agree with you on most things.. I believe the soul and the body are destroyed in hell, and at that point they no longer feel anything!

Well, the Psalmist wrote concerning the grave - a consistent message!

• Psalm 6:5 – “For in death there is no remembrance of you; in Sheol who will give you praise?”
• Psalm 30:9 – “What profit is there in my blood, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise you?”
• Psalm 146:4 – “When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans perish.”

Greek mythology did a real number on the original Gospel - trinity included!

All in God's plan though

 

[Hiddenthings]

Some argue that “destroy” means to “afflict” or “torment” rather than to annihilate. However, the Greek word apollu, translated as “destroy,” carries the meaning of “destroy utterly.” As Ethelbert W. Bullinger notes in A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek Testament (London: Samuel Bagster and Sons Ltd., 1957, p. 220), there is no indication of torment in any instance where apollu is translated “destroy” in the Authorized Version, for example, Matthew 2:13; 12:14; 21:41; 22:7; 27:20.

 

[Marymog]

I have an idea, maybe you have a better idea please let me know. What if we both just give comments that reflect some of our strongest reasons why our view makes sense? And then after we have both listed our Strongest reasons, we can both objectively take a look at all the reasons that we both have explained.

Instead of words and questions about every little thing. We both explain our strongest reasons for our different conclusions.

I do have a better idea: How about we just obey Scripture?

Your "Strongest reasons" nor my strongest reasons matter. The truth matters. Scripture says that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Not you! Not me! The Church!

Scripture also says The Church has the final say and if we don't listen to The Church that we can be kicked out of The Church. Your "Strongest reasons" don't matter if The Church says your strongest reasoning doesn't matter.

Scripture also says to obey your elders (church leaders) and follow their example for they watch out for your soul and have been chosen by the Holy Spirit to lead The Church.

I will follow Scripture! I will follow The Church of which the gates of hell will not prevail against. You can continue to follow yourself and the truth you create in your head with your "Strongest reasons".

Mary

 

[Marymog]

Nice response Walter....we should allow the Bible to speak for itself and not allow church leaders to dictate what we believe.

Dear AJ,

The reason Christianity is divided, especially since the Protestant Revolution, is because of unbiblical beliefs like yours. The very first heretical men spoken of in the NT practiced what you are currently preaching.

Scripture says, Obey them that have the rule over you and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder.

Remember your leaders, those who spoke the word of God to you; consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.

Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God,

Aunty Jane says, don't listen to the church leaders. Fascinating..........

I am willing to bet that you and @walter have a disagreement on what the Bible says even though it, according to your logic, "speaks for itself". Your logic is not logical and is completely unbiblical since we know that "some things (in Scripture) are hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures."

None the less.........thank you for your opinions. I will stick with Scripture.

Mary

 

[Aunty Jane]

The reason Christianity is divided, especially since the Protestant Revolution, is because of unbiblical beliefs like yours. The very first heretical men spoken of in the NT practiced what you are currently preaching.

Scripture says, Obey them that have the rule over you and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder.

Remember your leaders, those who spoke the word of God to you; consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.

Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God,

Aunty Jane says, don't listen to the church leaders. Fascinating..........

Let’s have a little history lesson here MM....

When Christianity first separated from Judaism, a new arrangement for worship was officially established and “Christianity” became a new religion, one that operated under a new covenant, and that shed much of what Judaism to this day still practices, but that should have been adopted by the Jewish leaders in welcoming their Messiah...but all Jesus got was resistance. The people listened to the wrong men, convinced that they were good leaders.... and lost their place in the Kingdom.

So ”church” leaders are not to be obeyed if they are not obedient to the teaching of God, in the case of the Jews, (Matt 15:7-9) or in the case of Jesus’ disciples, those who are not obedient to the Christ....for all the same reasons.

Since Jesus himself, as well as the apostles, foretold that an apostasy was going to derail the Christian Faith...what makes you think it didn’t happen....? Paul, said that this apostasy was “already at work” when the apostles were still alive, so given that the early Church was threatened with this apostasy, and that Judaism had already succumbed to it, how easy was it for the devil to repeat the process, just with different men that he could also manipulate.

None the less.........thank you for your opinions. I will stick with Scripture

That’s just the problem....you stick to your church’s interpretation of Scripture....something they have promoted for centuries, when they knew that no one in their congregations could read God’s word for themselves.... because they had no access to check God’s word, and like the Boereans, searching the Bible to see whether what they were being taught, was actually backed up by Scripture.

For the RCC, “sola scriptura” are dirty words. How convenient to appeal to the corrupted church leaders promoting an apostasy instead of appealing to God’s word....whatever Scripture you quote is carefully manipulated to support your church’s many false doctrines......it appears that your words are empty.

Actions speak louder...ya know...? The history of your church betrays the fact that Christ was never in it.

 

[quietthinker]

Actions speak louder...ya know...? The history of your church betrays the fact that Christ was never in it.

ohhhhhhhh, I guess what you're saying is whores were never virgins.....which really, is stretching a point which undermines your own ability to see well.

 

[Marymog]

Let’s have a little history lesson here MM....

So ”church” leaders are not to be obeyed if they are not obedient to the teaching of God, .......

Let's have a little logic lesson here AJ......

"If they are not obedient to the teaching of God" according to WHO? YOU? @walter ?

I am willing to bet that you and Walter disagree on "the teaching of God".

 

[Marymog]

Since Jesus himself, as well as the apostles, foretold that an apostasy was going to derail the Christian Faith...what makes you think it didn’t happen....? Paul, said that this apostasy was “already at work” when the apostles were still alive, so given that the early Church was threatened with this apostasy, and that Judaism had already succumbed to it, how easy was it for the devil to repeat the process, just with different men that he could also manipulate.

Here we agree AJ! The Christian faith has been and was derailed during NT times. Where our disagreement lies is YOU teach, without evidence, that The Church ceased to exist after the death of the last Apostle. And I presume you also believe that The Church was reconstituted 1,800 years later by the men that you follow. Do I have that correct?

 

[Marymog]

That’s just the problem....you stick to your church’s interpretation of Scripture....something they have promoted for centuries, when they knew that no one in their congregations could read God’s word for themselves.... because they had no access to check God’s word, and like the Boereans, searching the Bible to see whether what they were being taught, was actually backed up by Scripture.

Let’s have a little history AND logic lesson here AJ.........

Complete and utter lie. How can you on one hand say that no one could read God's word for themselves to see whether what they were being taught was actually backed up by Scripture and then on the other hand say the Bereans could read God's word for themselves to see whether what they were being taught was actually backed up by Scripture. That makes zero sense and is historically not factual! You have once again ignored Scripture (Romans 10:17) and given me your opinion with zero facts to back it up.

I am trying to figure out if you meant they couldn't read God's word for themselves because they (the average person at the time) were not taught to read OR they could not read God's word because The Church would not allow them access to Scripture? A agree with you on the former and if you meant the latter, it is a complete lie.

You are comparing yourself to the Bereans which is very disturbing and we have been thru this before back in October. The Bereans were Jews. When Paul and Silas told them how Jesus fulfilled the ancient prophesy they researched, what we now call the OT, and determined that Paul and Silas were telling them the truth and that Jesus was the prophesied Messiah. The Bereans then became Christians and were subject to the teachings/doctrines of The Church. You and your ilk are not Jews. Christianity teaches what I wrote in post #595. It is those passages in Scripture (that I referenced in post #595) that you reject which makes you think you are like a Berean. You are not. You are, according to your own testimony, a Christian. Therefore, you should follow the teachings of Christ and the Apostles. You should obey and submit yourself to the elders of The Church for they watch out for your soul, and they have been appointed by the Holy Spirit.

Keeping it real with logic, Scripture and true history.......Mary