Maybe I Am Not Understanding the Post Tribulation Rapture. - Can You Help?

[The Light]

Anyone can and does understand your point but ppl like myself believe you are misunderstanding what the seals are about. They are not events happening but visions of the future shown to John.

John has a vision of the 7 seals. In his vision he sees what will happen when each seal is actually opened in the future.

That's why Christ opens all of the seals in a short time period, never leaving heaven to take part in their events like the 6th seal where Jesus does not return when he opens the seal.

Jesus leaves heaven at the 6th seal for a harvest which is seen here.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect of which the 144,000 from 12 tribes are the first fruits of this harvest. The unrighteous remain on the earth during the wrath of God. The righteous that are gathered return to heaven for the marriage supper. That is why there is a great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7 some of which come out of great tribulation.

 

[JLB]

None of us know the hour in which the Lord comes back for his church. So we are commanded to watch daily for it...

32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch. - Mark 13

The Day of the Lord will not come as a thief in the night for the church.


But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
1 Thessalonians 5:4

 

[JLB]

Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect of which the 144,000 from 12 tribes are the first fruits of this harvest. The unrighteous remain on the earth during the wrath of God. The righteous that are gathered return to heaven for the marriage supper. That is why there is a great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7 some of which come out of great tribulation.

And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns! Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. Revelation 19:6-8


The marriage supper doesn’t take place until Revelation 19, when the Lord returns with His saints, the dead in Christ, to gather His people at the coming of the Lord for the resurrection and rapture.


The marriage supper takes place on earth, in Jerusalem.

 

[The Light]

Was my question too difficult?

No. It needed to be more difficult. Its simplicity was not adequate for the situation.

When Jesus brings the souls of the dead in Christ with Him, do you believe they will be first gathered in heaven and then go with Him from heaven?

Yes, I think the souls will go with Jesus to the earth when the dead in Christ rise. All return to heaven after the dead in Christ receive new bodies. This is the barley harvest which is celebrated on Pentecost.

The dead in Christ leave heaven with Jesus when He comes for the alive that remained. The alive that remained will receive new bodies and be caught up together with those in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

This is the Church which is the 1st fold.

We see the dead in Christ rising first in the red verses and we see the alive that remain in the blue verses. The red verses take place in the spring as we can see, and the blue verses take place in the summer.

Song of Solomon 2
8 The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.

9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;

12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;

13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

14 O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely.

There is a 100% chance that you are contradicting Paul.

How so? Does not the dead in Christ rise first. Does not the alive remain? Does Jesus bring the dead with Him when He comes for the alive that remain?

It's likely that no one else in the world shares your particular interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17.

Likely, very few understand these verses. Few understand there are two folds which are two raptures. Few understand the Lord Himself comes for the first fold and He sends His angels for the second fold. Few understand He will come when it is like the days of Noah the first time and He will come when it's like the days of Lot the second time. The very day Lot left Sodom destruction came. The first time He will come at the trump of God or voice of God and the second time He will come at the last trump which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets which is a fall harvest feast.

It does NOT say "the alive remain"! You are blatantly twisting the text to fit your lone wolf view. It says the dead in Christ rise first, which means they are first bodily resurrected

It seems simple enough. The Word says we which are alive and remain UNTO THE COMING OF THE LORD shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Why are we alive and remaining unto the coming of the Lord. He comes for the dead in Christ first.......The alive remain unto the coming of the Lord.

1 Thes 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

and then it says they, together with those who are alive and remain until the coming of Christ, are caught up TOGETHER at the SAME TIME to meet Christ in the air. Your interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 is utterly ridiculous.

You might be using a bad translation. Mine says the alive are caught up (together WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS)

Jesus brings the dead in Christ which have new bodies with Him. They are in the clouds.

1 Thes 4
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[The Light]

And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns! Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. Revelation 19:6-8


The marriage supper doesn’t take place until Revelation 19, when the Lord returns with His saints, the dead in Christ, to gather His people at the coming of the Lord for the resurrection and rapture.


The marriage supper takes place on earth, in Jerusalem.

The Marriage Supper of the Lamb takes place in heaven.

Revelation 19
And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

When the great multitude is in heaven after Jesus comes for the second harvest which occurs at the 6th seal, all of the these are in heaven BEFORE the 7th seal is opened. That's why you see a great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7. Revelation 19 fits right there and extends through the trumpets and vials. The great multitude is in heaven for the marriage supper. They will remain in heaven during the ONE YEAR wrath of God. After one year we will leave heaven with Jesus as part of the armies of heaven.

Revelation 17,18 and 19 do not follow in order after Revelation 16.

Summary.......The great multitude is in heaven during the ONE YEAR wrath of God.

 

[JLB]

The Marriage Supper of the Lamb takes place in heaven.

Revelation 19
And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

When the great multitude is in heaven after Jesus comes for the second harvest which occurs at the 6th seal, all of the these are in heaven BEFORE the 7th seal is opened. That's why you see a great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7. Revelation 19 fits right there and extends through the trumpets and vials. The great multitude is in heaven for the marriage supper. They will remain in heaven during the ONE YEAR wrath of God. After one year we will leave heaven with Jesus as part of the armies of heaven.

Revelation 17,18 and 19 do not follow in order after Revelation 16.

Summary.......The great multitude is in heaven during the ONE YEAR wrath of God.

‘Jesus and the saints leave heaven and head to earth in Revelation 19 for the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture.

Jesus executes Gods wrath upon the wicked at His coming, which is the Day of the Lord.

And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns! Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
Then he said to me, “Write: Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’ ” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.” And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
Revelation 19:6-15



The Lord will destroy the wicked and remove the devil and his angels, as well as destroy the antichrist.


Then the marriage supper of the Lamb will take place on earth in Jerusalem.

 

[The Light]

‘Jesus and the saints leave heaven and head to earth in Revelation 19 for the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture.

Jesus executes Gods wrath upon the wicked at His coming, which is the Day of the Lord.


The Lord will destroy the wicked and remove the devil and his angels, as well as destroy the antichrist.

You got one huge problem. Immediately after the tribulation. Jesus appears in heaven immediately after the tribulation. If in your timeline Jesus returns for Armageddon with the armies of heaven, why is He coming immediately after the tribulation? Wouldn't He come before the tribulation is over? This just doesn't work. No how, now way.

Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Then the marriage supper of the Lamb will take place on earth in Jerusalem.

Problem! We already see the great multitude in heaven for the marriage supper before the armies of heaven leave for Armageddon. The marriage takes place during the ONE YEAR wrath of God.

There is no marriage supper on the earth.

 

[rebuilder 454]

‘Jesus and the saints leave heaven and head to earth in Revelation 19 for the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture.

Jesus executes Gods wrath upon the wicked at His coming, which is the Day of the Lord.

And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns! Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
Then he said to me, “Write: Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’ ” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.” And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
Revelation 19:6-15



The Lord will destroy the wicked and remove the devil and his angels, as well as destroy the antichrist.


Then the marriage supper of the Lamb will take place on earth in Jerusalem.

Postrib corner.
The supper is in heaven.
It all points to heaven.
Every associated verse points to the wedding in heaven.

I see this so often.
Once folks deviate from the word, the apologies become more and more bizarre.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No. It needed to be more difficult. Its simplicity was not adequate for the situation.

Good grief.

Yes, I think the souls will go with Jesus to the earth when the dead in Christ rise.

So, your answer to my question of whether the souls of the dead in Christ will be gathered in heaven first before going with Jesus from heaven is yet. Yet, somehow, you don't relate that to the gathering of the elect from the uttermost part of heaven that Jesus talked about in Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27.

All return to heaven after the dead in Christ receive new bodies. This is the barley harvest which is celebrated on Pentecost.

That is not ever mentioned in scripture. This is something you have made up in your imagination.

The dead in Christ leave heaven with Jesus when He comes for the alive that remained. The alive that remained will receive new bodies and be caught up together with those in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

It does not say anything about those who are alive remaining on earth when the dead in Christ are caught up. You are blatantly twisting the text. It says that the resurrected dead in Christ will be caught up TOGETHER with those who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord to meet Him in the air. You have the resurrected dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain until the coming of Christ being caught up on two different occasions, but Paul taught they will be caught up TOGETHER at the same time.

This is the Church which is the 1st fold.

Another unbiblical idea you have some up with. The folds that Jesus referred to in John 10 were of Jewish believers and Gentile believers who He brought together into one fold. Which lines up with other scripture saying that Jewish believers were brought together as "one new man" and "one body" as fellow citizens of the church by the blood of Christ (Ephesians 2:11-22).

We see the dead in Christ rising first in the red verses and we see the alive that remain in the blue verses. The red verses take place in the spring as we can see, and the blue verses take place in the summer.

Song of Solomon 2
8 The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.

9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;

12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;

13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

14 O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely.

Ridiculous. Let the clear scriptures form the foundation of your doctrine, not obscure scriptures like this. Paul was very clear in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 about the resurrected dead in Christ and those who are alive when Jesus comes being caught up together at the same time, but you are missing something obvious because of what you imagine the Song of Solomon 2 passage to be about.

How so? Does not the dead in Christ rise first. Does not the alive remain?

The dead in Christ are first resurrected before then being caught up together with those who are still alive when Jesus comes at the same time. It does not say that those who are alive when Jesus comes remain on the earth. You are the only person in the world who interprets 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 the way you do.

Does Jesus bring the dead with Him when He comes for the alive that remain?

He will bring the souls/spirits of the dead in Christ with Him at His one and only future descent from heaven at which point their bodies will be resurrected and unite with their souls/spirits and they will be caught up with believers who are alive when He comes TOGETHER to meet the Lord in the air. This is very simple and you still don't get it, which is just absolutely unbelievable to me.

Likely, very few understand these verses.

You certainly don't. Why would very few understand that straightforward passage? It's not like we're talking about verses contained within highly symbolic books like Daniel and Revelation. The fact that you have interpretations of scripture all to yourself that no one shares is a major red flag.

Few understand there are two folds which are two raptures. Few understand the Lord Himself comes for the first fold and He sends His angels for the second fold. Few understand He will come when it is like the days of Noah the first time and He will come when it's like the days of Lot the second time. The very day Lot left Sodom destruction came. The first time He will come at the trump of God or voice of God and the second time He will come at the last trump which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets which is a fall harvest feast.

It seems simple enough. The Word says we which are alive and remain UNTO THE COMING OF THE LORD shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Yes, that is simple enough and you still don't get it! What that means is that those who are alive when Jesus comes will not be caught up before the dead in Christ. The dead in Christ have to be resurrected first and then they will be caught up TOGETHER with those who are alive when Jesus comes to meet Him in the air. Simple enough, indeed, and, yet, you don't understand it.

Why are we alive and remaining unto the coming of the Lord. He comes for the dead in Christ first.......The alive remain unto the coming of the Lord.

It does NOT say that! It refers to those who are still alive and remain on the earth at the time Jesus comes again in contrast to those who are dead. It talks about them being alive and remaining on the earth in contrast to being dead. It does NOT say they remain on the earth after the dead in Christ are caught up. That comes only from your imagination. Paul is very clear that the resurrected dead in Christ and those who were not dead, but instead are alive and remain when Jesus comes, will be caught up TOGETHER at the same time to meet the Lord in the air.

1 Thes 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

You might be using a bad translation. Mine says the alive are caught up (together WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS)

LOL! I use that translation, also. It does not say what you think it says. Only one coming of the Lord is mentioned there. Hello? So, Paul is saying that those who are alive in Christ when Jesus comes will not be caught up first before those who are dead in Christ. The dead in Christ first have to be resurrected. Once they are resurrected then they are caught up together with those who are alive when He comes to meet Him in the air. Very simple.

Jesus brings the dead in Christ which have new bodies with Him.

Wrong! He will bring the souls of the dead in Christ with Him. That is what is indicated in 1 Thessalonians 4:14. Then they will unite with their resurrected bodies and be caught up with the alive in Christ to meet Him in the air.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You got one huge problem. Immediately after the tribulation. Jesus appears in heaven immediately after the tribulation. If in your timeline Jesus returns for Armageddon with the armies of heaven, why is He coming immediately after the tribulation? Wouldn't He come before the tribulation is over? This just doesn't work. No how, now way.

Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

You are not understanding what the tribulation refers to. Why are you equating Jesus destroying people in Revelation 19 on the day of His return with the tribulation of Matthew 24:29? No, He returns after the tribulation of those days to bring His wrath against His enemies.

Problem! We already see the great multitude in heaven for the marriage supper before the armies of heaven leave for Armageddon. The marriage takes place during the ONE YEAR wrath of God.

There is no marriage supper on the earth.

Where are you getting the idea that "the marriage takes place during the one year wrath of God" from? In Revelation 19 it talks about His wife having made herself ready at the point when it is time for Jesus to return. Why do you have the marriage taking place before that? That's not possible. The marriage won't take place before His wife is ready for the marriage to take place.

 

[The Light]

Good grief.

I'm glad the grief was good.

So, your answer to my question of whether the souls of the dead in Christ will be gathered in heaven first before going with Jesus from heaven is yet. Yet, somehow, you don't relate that to the gathering of the elect from the uttermost part of heaven that Jesus talked about in Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27.

The gathering from heaven and earth is the second harvest seen here.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The Church is gathered from heaven and the 12 tribes across the earth is gathered from the earth which is the result of 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes.

That is not ever mentioned in scripture. This is something you have made up in your imagination.

Your lack of understanding has no effect on the facts. The Church is seen in heaven in Revelation 5

It does not say anything about those who are alive remaining on earth when the dead in Christ are caught up. You are blatantly twisting the text. It says that the resurrected dead in Christ will be caught up TOGETHER with those who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord to meet Him in the air.

The dead in Christ are already in the clouds as they come with Lord when He comes for the alive that remain.

You have the resurrected dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain until the coming of Christ being caught up on two different occasions, but Paul taught they will be caught up TOGETHER at the same time.

No. Paul taught that the dead in Christ are raised first and the Lord will bring them with Him when He comes for the alive that remain. The alive that remain are caught up together WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS................just like it says.

Another unbiblical idea you have some up with. The folds that Jesus referred to in John 10 were of Jewish believers and Gentile believers who He brought together into one fold. Which lines up with other scripture saying that Jewish believers were brought together as "one new man" and "one body" as fellow citizens of the church by the blood of Christ (Ephesians 2:11-22).

AND? The first fold is the Church. The second fold is the Jew as the fig tree has two harvests.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

You read one passage without reading the rest of the Word of God which leads you to a false conclusion.

Ridiculous. Let the clear scriptures form the foundation of your doctrine, not obscure scriptures like this. Paul was very clear in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 about the resurrected dead in Christ and those who are alive when Jesus comes being caught up together at the same time, but you are missing something obvious because of what you imagine the Song of Solomon 2 passage to be about.

You think that 1 Thes 4 is talking about the same coming of the Lord as 1 Corinthians 15. You completely forget the two folds.

The dead in Christ are first resurrected before then being caught up together with those who are still alive when Jesus comes at the same time. It does not say that those who are alive when Jesus comes remain on the earth. You are the only person in the world who interprets 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 the way you do.

Sure. I interpreted it like you at one time. Then I realized the truth as the rest of the Word of God shows what happens.

He will bring the souls/spirits of the dead in Christ with Him at His one and only future descent from heaven at which point their bodies will be resurrected and unite with their souls/spirits and they will be caught up with believers who are alive when He comes TOGETHER to meet the Lord in the air. This is very simple and you still don't get it, which is just absolutely unbelievable to me.

As I said. Read the Song of Solomon 2 and understand what you are reading. Learn the feast of the Lord.

You certainly don't. Why would very few understand that straightforward passage? It's not like we're talking about verses contained within highly symbolic books like Daniel and Revelation. The fact that you have interpretations of scripture all to yourself that no one shares is a major red flag.

I haven't found a single person on this forum that even understands the order of Revelation. Not much chance any have a clue what they are talking about. That's the real red flag.

Very few even understand there are two raptures. It gives post tribbers great confidence when they see the error of pretrib. But that error disappears when the truth of two raptures is understood.

Yes, that is simple enough and you still don't get it! What that means is that those who are alive when Jesus comes will not be caught up before the dead in Christ. The dead in Christ have to be resurrected first and then they will be caught up TOGETHER with those who are alive when Jesus comes to meet Him in the air. Simple enough, indeed, and, yet, you don't understand it.

You haven't even figured out that the Lord comes for the Church before the great tribulation as we can escape all these things that come to pass. These are the red flags you should be concerned about. You need to study the origins of your beliefs.

It does NOT say that! It refers to those who are still alive and remain on the earth at the time Jesus comes again in contrast to those who are dead. It talks about them being alive and remaining on the earth in contrast to being dead. It does NOT say they remain on the earth after the dead in Christ are caught up. That comes only from your imagination. Paul is very clear that the resurrected dead in Christ and those who were not dead, but instead are alive and remain when Jesus comes, will be caught up TOGETHER at the same time to meet the Lord in the air.

Why do you deny that the dead in Christ are in the clouds when the alive are caught up. The Lord brings the dead in Christ with Him when He comes for the alive that remain.

Can't you understand Song of Solomon 2?
Don't you understand the feast of God and barley and wheat cakes presented on Pentecost?

LOL! I use that translation, also. It does not say what you think it says. Only one coming of the Lord is mentioned there. Hello? So, Paul is saying that those who are alive in Christ when Jesus comes will not be caught up first before those who are dead in Christ. The dead in Christ first have to be resurrected. Once they are resurrected then they are caught up together with those who are alive when He comes to meet Him in the air. Very simple.

It is simple. Everything I say agrees with the Word.

The dead in Chris rise first.
The alive remain.
When the Lord comes for the alive that remain, He will bring the dead with Him.
The alive that remain will be caught up TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS.

Wrong! He will bring the souls of the dead in Christ with Him. That is what is indicated in 1 Thessalonians 4:14. Then they will unite with their resurrected bodies and be caught up with the alive in Christ to meet Him in the air.

There is nothing I can find in scripture or the feast of God that agrees with your commonly held point of view.

 

[Trekson]

Please give me your opinion.

Let me make sure I understand the post tribulation rapture.

Are these verses in Matthew 24 considered the same event as the verses in Revelation 19 below?

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Whether you are post tribulation or Pre trib, Mid trib, Pre wrath etc. I would like your opinion and also are you post trib, pre trib, mid trib etc. Let's make sure we are on the same page.

Are the above verses describing the one and only coming of Jesus?
The more opinions, the better.

No, they aren't the same. The whole concept of a seven year trib period is false from the onset. The bible never describes it that way. But the seven year are the unfulfilled 70th week from Dan. 9:24-27. Matt. 24:29-31 depicts the rapture, imo, and Rev. 19 is the only NT passage that gives us a clear view of what the 2nd coming will actually be like. I am post-persecution. I believe that the GT of Matt. 24 is upon the church and it will be 'shortened" by the rapture/resurrection and our arrival in heaven is shown in Rev. 7:9-14. Post trib implies post 70th week, post-persecution os sometime between the middle of the week but pre-Armageddon. The rapture/resurrection is for the church, the 2nd coming is for Israel.

 

[Douggg]

Very few even understand there are two raptures. It gives post tribbers great confidence when they see the error of pretrib. But that error disappears when the truth of two raptures is understood.

The rapture is the changing of the bodies of the living in Christ into everlasting eternal life bodies. Seconds before then, the bodies of the dead in Christ are resurrected from the dust of the earth, and reunited with their souls that Jesus will bring with Him., likewise, into everlasting eternal life bodies.

Instead of saying "the rapture", it is better to say "the resurrection/rapture".

The resurrection/rapture must happen before God's wrath is poured out in the great tribulation.

1Thessalonians5:
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

 

[soberxp]

Please give me your opinion.

Let me make sure I understand the post tribulation rapture.

Are these verses in Matthew 24 considered the same event as the verses in Revelation 19 below?

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

matthew
22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Revelation 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Gospel Of John
16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

 

[ewq1938]

The rapture is the changing of the bodies of the living in Christ into everlasting eternal life bodies.

Close but incorrect. The change happens just before the rapture and the rapture is MOVING the changed people from Earth to the clouds of the Earth where they meet with Jesus. In every example of a rapture happening in the bible someone is MOVED.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up HARPAZO/RAPTURE together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

When this verse was translated into Latin from Greek, the Greek word "harpazo" was replaced by the the Latin word "rapio" meaning "to catch up" or "take away" (the Latin noun "raptus" "a carrying off"). The Latin word “rapiemur” is the word St. Jerome used for “caught up” when he translated 1 Thess 4:17 in the Latin Vulgate Bible. From “rapiemur” came the modern Englsih word "rapture".

 

[Douggg]

Close but incorrect. The change happens just before the rapture and the rapture is MOVING the changed people from Earth to the clouds of the Earth where they meet with Jesus. In every example of a rapture happening in the bible someone is MOVED.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up HARPAZO/RAPTURE together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

When this verse was translated into Latin from Greek, the Greek word "harpazo" was replaced by the the Latin word "rapio" meaning "to catch up" or "take away" (the Latin noun "raptus" "a carrying off"). The Latin word “rapiemur” is the word St. Jerome used for “caught up” when he translated 1 Thess 4:17 in the Latin Vulgate Bible. From “rapiemur” came the modern Englsih word "rapture".

The event is the resurrection/rapture .

1Corinthians15:

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

[ewq1938]

The event is the resurrection/rapture .

And the rapture is not the changing of body.

 

[Davy]

The rapture is the changing of the bodies of the living in Christ into everlasting eternal life bodies. Seconds before then, the bodies of the dead in Christ are resurrected from the dust of the earth, and reunited with their souls that Jesus will bring with Him., likewise, into everlasting eternal life bodies.

Instead of saying "the rapture", it is better to say "the resurrection/rapture".

The resurrection/rapture must happen before God's wrath is poured out in the great tribulation.

1Thessalonians5:
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Another one bites the dust of materialistic thinking about Apostle Paul's "spiritual body", the type body of the resurrection.


Our flesh body is not raised and put back with our soul. What did Jesus mean when He said, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6)??

And what did Apostle Paul mean when he said, "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption." (1 Cor.15:50)

 

[rebuilder 454]

No, they aren't the same. The whole concept of a seven year trib period is false from the onset. The bible never describes it that way. But the seven year are the unfulfilled 70th week from Dan. 9:24-27. Matt. 24:29-31 depicts the rapture, imo, and Rev. 19 is the only NT passage that gives us a clear view of what the 2nd coming will actually be like. I am post-persecution. I believe that the GT of Matt. 24 is upon the church and it will be 'shortened" by the rapture/resurrection and our arrival in heaven is shown in Rev. 7:9-14. Post trib implies post 70th week, post-persecution os sometime between the middle of the week but pre-Armageddon. The rapture/resurrection is for the church, the 2nd coming is for Israel.

Throw in romans 9-11, the gathering /grafting back in of the Jews.
Then Rev 14, the gathering of the Jews during the trib.
(No Jewish gathering anywhere at armageddon)

 

[Trekson]

Throw in romans 9-11, the gathering /grafting back in of the Jews.
Then Rev 14, the gathering of the Jews during the trib.
(No Jewish gathering anywhere at armageddon)

I believe Rev. 14 to be a secondary picture of the rapture. One has to look at the end of the 70th week from the perspective of the three fall feasts that will be fulfilled throughout the latter half. The 144, 000 are gathered first, the next batch will be those of Rev. 12:14 and the last will involve the earthly gathering after Armageddon and perhaps the resurrection from Ez. 37, imo.