The "sudden destruction" from which unbelievers "will not escape" on the day of the Lord will be caused by fire coming down on the earth.

[Douggg]

How can the rapture come before the arrival of Christ? All the New Testament tells us that the rapture will occur when Christ appears in the heavens and sends out His angels to gather His elect - immediately following the days of great tribulation.

You are referring to Matthew 24:31, correct ? The gathering of the the elect.

That verse is referring to the final gathering of the Jews from the nations to the land of Israel. It is a promise that God made in Deuteronomy 30:1-6.

1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It does not say that in 2 Thessalonians 2 at all. It says there will be a falling away and the man of sin will seat himself up in the Temple BEFORE the Day of Christ.

Where does it say in 2 Thessalonians 2 that the rapture will take place before the man of sin seats himself up in the Temple?

Nowhere, of course. Paul was very clear that the falling away and revealing of the man of sin will occur first before the rapture (the coming of Christ when we are gathered to Him). This is just a case of someone blatantly twisting the text to fit their doctrine.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In 1Thessalonians5:9-11, the resurrection/rapture will take place before the day of the Lord begins when God's wrath will be poured out.

That is not at all what that passage says. Paul equates the rapture (our being gathered to Him at His second coming) with the day of the Lord in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2, so it makes no sense to say that the resurection/rapture will take place before the day of the Lord begins. No, the resurrection/rapture will take place on the day of the Lord which Paul describes as a day when Jesus will come and we will be gathered to Him and the day when Christ's vengeance will bring "sudden destruction" will come upon unbelievers from which "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 4:14-5:3, 2 Thess 1:7-10).

The day of the Lord begins when the man of sin sits in the temple, in 2Thessalonians 2:4.

That is not at all what that verse says. How are you coming to these conclusions? It's not enough to just make these claims. Where does Paul indicate that the day of the Lord begins when the man of sin sits in the temple. He certainly doesn't indicate that in 2 Thessalonians 2:4.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I did not say the souls of the dead in Christ are part of his bride.

Right, you didn't. I did. Why would they not be included? That's nonsense. They are with Him in heaven but not part of His bride? That's crazy talk.

The resurrected dead in Christ and the raptured living in Christ will be His bride. The changes is to the bodies, not the souls.

It's not as if they can't be referred to as part of His bride who has made herself ready until their bodies are changed. They are with Christ in heaven. Not having a body doesn't make them any less part of His bride than us who are still alive.

Regardless of all that, you understand that the wedding between Christ and His bride doesn't take place until He returns, don't you? It clearly doesn't take place until then because it indicates that the bride doesn't make herself ready for the marriage until He returns.

 

[Douggg]

Where does Paul indicate that the day of the Lord begins when the man of sin sits in the temple. He certainly doesn't indicate that in 2 Thessalonians 2:4.

The day of Christ in verse 2 is the day of the Lord.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

In verses 3 and 4 are two things that must take place before the day of the Lord begins.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The day of Christ in verse 2 is the day of the Lord.

Yes, exactly. And that is the day of Christ's second coming when we will be gathered to Him that Paul referenced in verse 1. He didn't change the subject from verse 1 to verse 2.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Paul referred to the same day 3 times in this passage. In verse 1 he referred to the day of "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and...our gathering together unto Him". In verse 2 he referred to that day of His coming and our gathering together unto Him as "the day of Christ". In verse 3 he referred to it as "that day". This is very obvious.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

In verses 3 and 4 are two things that must take place before the day of the Lord begins.

That is correct. But, you are wrong in trying to make the day of the Lord a different event than Christ's second coming and our being gathered to Him.

 

[Douggg]

Right, you didn't. I did. Why would they not be included? That's nonsense. They are with Him in heaven but not part of His bride? That's crazy talk.

The souls of Christians in heaven are awaiting the resurrection of their bodies in the resurrection/rapture event. In their eternal everlasting bodies, the resurrected/rapture saints will return with Jesus as His bride.

 

[Douggg]

Yes, exactly. And that is the day of Christ's second coming when we will be gathered to Him that Paul referenced in verse 1. He didn't change the subject from verse 1 to verse 2.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

If Paul was saying that gathering were to be on Jesus's second coming (His return of Revelation 19), then why would the Thessalonians be troubled by rumors that the Day of the Lord had started already ?

The Thessalonians were troubled because they thought they had missed the resurrection/rapture event that Paul had talked to them earlier about in 1Thessalonains 4:14-18 and 1Thessalonians 5:9-11.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The souls of Christians in heaven are awaiting the resurrection of their bodies in the resurrection/rapture event.

Right.

In their eternal everlasting bodies, the resurrected/rapture saints will return with Jesus as His bride.

Return where? We will meet Him in the air and it does not say that we then go to heaven as people like you believe nor does it say we will then go to the earth (as we know it) as post-trib premils believe. Scripture indicates that the judgment will occur when Jesus comes (Matthew 25:31-46), so we will go wherever that takes place. Which, according to Revelation 20:11, will be neither in heaven nor on earth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If Paul was saying that gathering were to be on Jesus's second coming (His return of Revelation 19), then why would the Thessalonians be troubled by rumors that the Day of the Lord had started already ?

It doesn't say that any of them for certain would be troubled by such rumors. Whether any of them would be troubled or not depends on each individual's understanding of what Paul taught about the day of the Lord. Paul was just warning them not to be troubled if anyone claimed that the day of the Lord had already come since that would contradict what Paul taught about the day of the Lord. It would contradict the fact that believers will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air on the day of the Lord and would contradict the fact that unbelievers will be destroyed on the day of the Lord. And it would contradict the fact that the falling away and man of sin being revealed had to occur first before the day of the Lord. Anyone who understood and believed those things about the day of the Lord could not be fooled into thinking that the day of the Lord had already come. Paul wanted them to remember and keep in mind what he taught about the day of the Lord so that they would not be troubled by anyone claiming that the day of the Lord had already come.

The Thessalonians were troubled because they thought they had missed the resurrection/rapture event that Paul had talked to them earlier about in 1Thessalonains 4:14-18 and 1Thessalonians 5:9-11.

It doesn't say that they were troubled. Read the text more carefully. Paul was telling them not to be troubled if anyone claimed that the day of the Lord had already come. He was just warning them that some might try to claim that and was telling them not to be fooled by it. Anyone who understood what Paul taught about the day of the Lord would not be fooled into thinking that it had already come and would not be troubled by anyone claiming that.

 

[Douggg]

Return where? We will meet Him in the air and it does not say that we then go to heaven as people like you believe nor does it say we will then go to the earth (as we know it) as post-trib premils believe.

There is no rapture taking place at Jesus's return in Revelation 19.

 

[Zao is life]

In 1Thessalonians5:9-11, the resurrection/rapture will take place before the day of the Lord begins when God's wrath will be poured out.

The day of the Lord begins when the man of sin sits in the temple, in 2Thessalonians 2:4.

Where does it say that the Day of the LORD begins when the man of sin sits in the Temple?

 

[Douggg]

Where does it say that the Day of the LORD begins when the man of sin sits in the Temple?

In 2Thessalonians 2:1-4 the day of the Lord begins. The day of the Lord is not a 24 hour day, but a period of time that once begun extends into eternity. It has no end.

When the Antichrist reveals himself to be the man of sin by sitting in the temple, claiming to be God (an action called the transgression of desolation), it will anger God, and He will bring strangers against him and have him assassinated, Ezekiel 28:1-10. Take a look at the second chart down below.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There is no rapture taking place at Jesus's return in Revelation 19.

Yes, there is. There has to be because He is only coming from heaven once in the future. He will come once from heaven in the future in the same manner He ascended there (Acts 1:9-11). The various passages that reference His second coming all contain various levels of detail in relation to that one event, so trying to argue that the rapture isn't taking place there just because it isn't explicitly referenced is not a valid argument.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In 2Thessalonians 2:1-4 the day of the Lord begins. The day of the Lord is not a 24 hour day, but a period of time that once begun extends into eternity. It has no end.

You say this, but you have no scriptural evidence to back it up. Your claims are meaningless without scriptural support for them. Scripture indicates that the day of the Lord is a 24 hour day during which Jesus returns and things happen quickly. It involves "sudden destruction" (1 Thess 5:2-3) and the changing of our bodies in a moment (1 Cor 15:50-54). There is no scripture you can find to support the idea of the day of the Lord being a long period of time or extending into eternity. You are just making that up.

 

[Douggg]

You say this, but you have no scriptural evidence to back it up. Your claims are meaningless without scriptural support for them. Scripture indicates that the day of the Lord is a 24 hour day during which Jesus returns and things happen quickly. It involves "sudden destruction" (1 Thess 5:2-3) and the changing of our bodies in a moment (1 Cor 15:50-54). There is no scripture you can find to support the idea of the day of the Lord being a long period of time or extending into eternity. You are just making that up.

So where does it say in scripture the day of the Lord ends ? Is the kingdom of God an everlasting kingdom ?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So where does it say in scripture the day of the Lord ends ?

You can read passages like 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 to see what will happen on the day of the Lord. Where does scripture ever indicate that the day of the Lord never ends? What we can see described as occurring on the day of the Lord like the resurrection of the dead, the changing of our bodies, being caught up to Christ and unbelievers being destroyed does not last for eternity.

Is the kingdom of God an everlasting kingdom ?

Yes, but what does that have to do with what scripture says occurs on the day of the Lord? Do you have any scripture to share which indicates that the day of the Lord lasts forever?

 

[Truth7t7]

So, you believe that they will literally breathe fire out of their mouths to kill their enemies despite Jesus commanding His followers to love our enemies? Yes or no? It's not a hard question.

Just as Elijah commanded fire from heaven by his spoken words from his "Mouth" the (Two Witnesses) will do the same

That isn't my view of the two witnesses, so stop wasting your time making strawman arguments. You're always trying to lump me in with other teachings, which shows again how childish you are. My view is that the two witnesses represent the church because they are represented as two olive trees. If you read Romans 11 you can see that branches from the wild olive tree, representing Gentile believers, were grafted in with the natural branches of the good olive tree, which represent Israelite believers. Together, as one body, Jew and Gentile believers who belong to Christ witness and preach the gospel throughout the world. That is what the two witnesses symbolically represent. But, because of your hyper-literalism, you can't discern that.

Two dead bodies laying in a street in Jerusalem represents the (Church)?

100% Malarkey!

Revelation 11:6-11KJV
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

 

[Brakelite]

What Peter taught in 2 Peter 3:10-12 lines up with what Jesus taught in Matthew 24:35-39 where He said that heaven and earth will pass away unexpectedly with no one knowing the day or hour that will occur while proceeding to point out that all unbelievers were killed by the flood in Noah's day and then saying "so also will the coming of the Son of Man be". So, 2 Peter 3:10-12 lines up perfectly with Matthew 24:35-39 with both describing Jesus coming unexpectedly while bringing destruction upon the heavens and the earth, causing them to "pass away" in favor of the new heavens and new earth that Peter said we are looking for in fulfillment of the promise of Christ's second coming (2 Peter 3:13). With that being the case, it's no wonder that Paul said unbelievers "shall not escape" the "sudden destruction" that will occur on the day Christ comes as a thief in the night. They can't escape fire coming down upon the entire earth.

That coming destruction isn't a direct attack from God upon the earth. Let me explain.
It is because of this...

“And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. ”
Exodus 33:20 KJV

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Unless of course there is a dramatic change in the person beholding the face of God, hence...

“3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. ”
Revelation 22:3-4 KJV

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Otherwise, at the second coming, we have this...

“16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? ”
Revelation 6:16-17 KJV

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There is something inherent in man's nature that when beholding the true beauty, innocence, holiness and glory of God's love, it scrambles the mind and they are destroyed mentally and spiritually. They implode from guilt, and the sudden burden and realisation of all the sin and evil they have committed throughout their lives. I can't remember them right now, but there are scriptures that describe this explicitly. The brain or mind implosion. There are limited examples of this in. OT history, albeit seasoned by grace.

“Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, (even obscured by smoke) the LORD of hosts. ”
Isaiah 6:5 KJV

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“5 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz: 6 His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude. 7 And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves. 8 Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength. ”
Daniel 10:5-8 KJV

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“The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? ”
Isaiah 33:14 KJV

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“9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. 10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. ”
Daniel 7:9-10 KJV

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There are nuances to the destruction of people at the second coming that aren't apparent at first perusal of end time prophecy.

Yet at the end of the 1000 years, those destroyed by the glory and appearing of Jesus at His second coming are resurrected, and exposed as rebels by their reaction to the presence of the holy city and the conclusion they draw in rightly thinking their only chance of survival of to surround it and attack, and give Satan the throne. That, when there is absolutely no further doubt as to their guilt and satanic mindset, brings God to that point of decision making where there is left to Him no choice. It's God's act, His strange act, that is outside everything He hoped for and stood for, that He is finally compelled to bring fire down from heaven and destroy not only the sinners outside the gates, but everything on the planet they are irrevocably attached to that they refused to give up.

“9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. ”
Revelation 20:9-11 KJV

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And there was found no place for them. They are left to bear the burden of their rebellion alone, defenceless, and naked.

When the whole earth is thus cleansed, to its original state prior to creation, without form and void, then it is prepared to be recreated, and the meek shall inherit it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Just as Elijah commanded fire from heaven by his spoken words from his "Mouth" the (Two Witnesses) will do the same

That's not what the text says. It says the fire comes from their mouth, not from heaven. So, why do you not take Revelation 11:5 literally, but take all the rest of the verses related to the two witnesses in Revelation 11 literally? Why are you not consistent in how you interpret Revelation 11 and are instead selective in how you interpret them? That shows you just make the text say whatever you want it to say.

Revelation 11:5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner.

So, you are saying that fire proceeding from their mouth symbolically represents them calling fire down from heaven? Why can't the rest of the text related to the two witnesses be symbolic as well then? And, what about Jesus commanding His followers to love their enemies? How would the two witnesses be doing that by killing their enemies? Is that what we're commanded to do? Kill people if they don't accept the gospel when we preach it to them? Of course not! Why do you think the two witnesses would be commanded to act in a completely non-Christian way? You're not even thinking!

Two dead bodies laying in a street in Jerusalem represents the (Church)?

100% Malarkey!

You want to talk about 100% Malarkey! You are saying that a description of fire coming out of the mouth of the two witnesses represents fire coming down from heaven and you have the two witnesses killing their enemies rather than loving them as Jesus commands. That is 100% Malarkey! It is 100% Malarkey to try to interpret the text of the most highly symbolic book in the Bible as literally as you possibly can!