Man's Preterism, An Abomination

[ScottA]

""and that is what happens within Stephen.""
That was BEFORE Paul was Apostle & Minister
""clarification was to say "but" Christ's returning/the resurrection would come to each person individually"""
The request is for the verse, list the Paul verse/s please

Sorry I had typos in that. Fixed them. The verse is 1 Corinthians 15:23.

 

[rvmb]

I quote Paul. Look it up, I'm traveling.

.

 

[rvmb]

Sorry I had typos in that. Fixed them. The verse is 1 Corinthians 15:23.

""He did not come in the "future" as some believe, but that very hour as Paul clarified, saying""
How does 1 Cor 15:23 " Christ the first fruits" clarify your above statement ?

 

[ScottA]

""He did not come in the "future" as some believe, but that very hour as Paul clarified, saying""
How does 1 Cor 15:23 " Christ the first fruits" clarify your above statement ?

Jesus (the first) entered into the Spirit in His own order, then Stephen entered into the Spirit (as "one" person also), then Paul clarified the many resurrection passages to alleviate any
confusion, saying "but each 'one' in his own order."

Is that not enough clarification "by the mouth of two or three witnesses"...that everyone should alternatively believe--"oh but no it must be some mass future event instead?"

 

[rwb]

I already explained how I understand the word. The Greek word can also mean "firstfruit". It indicates that Christ Himself is the firstfruits or firstfruit "of them that slept" (of the dead in Christ).

How is He the firstfruit(s) of them that slept?

t indicates that Christ Himself is the firstfruits or firstfruit "of them that slept" (of the dead in Christ). In that verse it is used to show that Christ's resurrection ensures that "them that slept" which are the dead in Christ will also be bodily resurrected unto bodily immortality like He was.

That is not true! The beloved Epenetus was the firstfruits of Achais unto Christ SPIRITUALLY, not physically. Christ Himself being the firstfruits of them that had died SPIRITUALLY, not physically because Epaenetus had not died but is still among the firstfruits through Christ's Spirit.

Romans 16:5 (KJV) Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

Here also we find the house of Stephanas was the firstfruits of Achaia SPIRITUALLY, not physically! Because neither had they died, but they were firstfruits through the Spirit of Christ in them.

1 Corinthians 16:15 (KJV) I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)

James speaks of believers as being firstfruits having been begotten with the Word of truth SPIRITUALLY, not physically! IOW being born again of Christ's Spirit.

James 1:18 (KJV) Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

John sees an hundred forty four thousand in heaven having been redeemed FROM the earth, not resurrected back to life on the earth. I believe these are the Old Covenant faithful saints who died in faith waiting for the promised Messiah to come and REDEEM not RESURRECT them from the dead. Because Christ is the firstfruits of the dead both SPIRITUALLY and PHYSICALLY, after His resurrection He first descended to the lower parts of the earth (Abraham's bosom) to set the captives of death free according to grace through faith.

Revelation 14:1-4 (KJV) And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Since you don't believe a man has ETERNAL life before they are physically resurrected, you cannot discern how Christ's resurrection in this age is for ETERNAL SPIRITUAL LIFE which gives us assurance that we who have been born again through Christ's Spirit in us, will also be resurrected bodily immortal & incorruptible when the last trumpet sounds. Because NOW we are to live by faith and not by sight, understanding the Kingdom of God we enter and is within us through His Spirit is NOT physical but a SPIRITUAL Kingdom that when we enter is our inheritance is FOREVER!

You failed to carefully look at what is actually written in 1 Corinthians 15:20. It does not say that "them that slept" are the firstfruits.

NO! It is you who fail to believe the life we receive in Christ from the moment we believe, being born again of HIs Spirit in us is ours FOREVER. You refuse to accept the plain language of Scripture repeatedly assuring us we have ETERNAL LIFE spiritually NOW from the moment we are born again, and since our life is NEVER ENDING, we shall also share immortality with Christ PHYSICALLY when the last trumpet sounds.

 

[rwb]

Show us where it says that Jesus came to Stephen personally when he died.

Christ came to Stephen by His Spirit sent to him. Stephen being eternally spiritually alive when being stoned to death never doubted calling upon God through the Lord Jesus to receive his spirit. Stephen knew through the Spirit of Christ in him that death would take his mortal body but could not take away his ETERNAL SPIRITUAL life. Which is why he had no doubt that his spirit would be with the Lord in heaven as soon as his body breathed its last.

Acts 6:5 (KJV) And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:

Acts 7:59 (KJV) And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

 

[rvmb]

Jesus (the first) entered into the Spirit in His own order, then Stephen entered into the Spirit (as "one" person also), then Paul clarified the many resurrection passages to alleviate any
confusion, saying "but each 'one' in his own order."

Is that not enough clarification "by the mouth of two or three witnesses"...that everyone should alternatively believe--"oh but no it must be some mass future event instead?"

""He did not come in the "future" as some believe""
Christ is & remains physically resurrected.
What verses teach that the ASCENDED Christ has again returned to the physical feet on earth ?

 

[rvmb]

Christ came to Stephen by His Spirit sent to him. Stephen being eternally spiritually alive when being stoned to death never doubted calling upon God through the Lord Jesus to receive his spirit. Stephen knew through the Spirit of Christ in him that death would take his mortal body but could not take away his ETERNAL SPIRITUAL life. Which is why he had no doubt that his spirit would be with the Lord in heaven as soon as his body breathed its last.

Acts 6:5 (KJV) And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:

Acts 7:59 (KJV) And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Is Stephen as yet PHYSICALLY resurrected ?
Acts 7:55
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

 

[ScottA]

""He did not come in the "future" as some believe""
Christ is & remains physically resurrected.
What verses teach that the ASCENDED Christ has again returned to the physical feet on earth ?

The scriptures do not say that, nor was I saying that.

On the contrary, the scriptures say that Jesus went to be One again with the Father (meaning spirit, as the Father is spirit), as He was before the foundation of the world. And that He would return "in the glory of the Father", which is spirit.

And, no, the resurrection is not "physical." The resurrection is to God, and to be One with Him, and to be "like Him." You are confusing Jesus rising from the grave with the resurrection. Those are two different events.

 

[jeffweeder]

How is He the firstfruit(s) of them that slept?

Because he died bodily as a man and was taken up bodily as a man to reunite with the glory he had with the Father before he came a man.

Christ Himself being the firstfruits of them that had died SPIRITUALLY, not physically because Epaenetus had not died but is still among the firstfruits through Christ's Spirit.

The Lord Jesus never ever died Spiritually.....only physically to break the power of death for Man. Therefore he is the firstfruits of them born again of his Spirit who have died physically, yet in the future will have a body like his glorified resurrected physical body that ascended to the Father to prepare a place for us....the redemption of the Body.

Romans 8:23
And not only this, but we too, who have the first fruits of the Spirit [a joyful indication of the blessings to come], even we groan inwardly, as we wait eagerly for [the sign of] our adoption as sons—the redemption and transformation of our body [at the resurrection].

 

[rwb]

Is Stephen as yet PHYSICALLY resurrected ?
Acts 7:55
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

No, none shall be physically resurrected until an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds and time shall be no longer. Stephen, like every other faithful saint must wait for immortal & incorruptible body of flesh until the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete when the last one to be eternally saved has been born again through the Spirit of Christ in them. But when Stephen's body died, his spirit returned to God in heaven a living soul. Because the life Christians receive through the Spirit of Christ within is ETERNAL LIFE. Stephen knowing this, as he was dying cried out to God "saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." Death may claim believers' mortal body of flesh, but physical death cannot take away the ETERNAL LIFE Stephen, or any other Christians spiritually possess when they have been born again of Christ's Spirit within them.

 

[rwb]

Because he died bodily as a man and was taken up bodily as a man to reunite with the glory he had with the Father before he came a man.

It wasn't only the physical body of Christ that went up to heaven three days after His death. Christ is not only the firstfruits bodily, but He is also the firstfruits or the first SPIRITUAL body to ascend to heaven a living soul after He breathed His last. Christ would not be whole again with both body + spirit complete living soul until first descending down into that part of the grave called of Old the bosom of Abraham. Christ rescued the spiritual body of these Old Covenant faithful saints, taking them with Him to heaven before He physically ascended to heaven, where He only is once again complete living soul through both body + spirit.

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

The Lord Jesus never ever died Spiritually.....only physically to break the power of death for Man. Therefore he is the firstfruits of them born again of his Spirit who have died physically, yet in the future will have a body like his glorified resurrected physical body that ascended to the Father to prepare a place for us....the redemption of the Body.

Romans 8:23
And not only this, but we too, who have the first fruits of the Spirit [a joyful indication of the blessings to come], even we groan inwardly, as we wait eagerly for [the sign of] our adoption as sons—the redemption and transformation of our body [at the resurrection]

No believer experiences spiritual death! That is indeed how Christ is the firstfruits both of spiritual body and physical body for all who have been born again. Believers possess eternal spiritual life from the moment we have been born again through the Spirit of Christ within us. Since every man who has been born again, having the firstfruits of the Spirit of Christ don't have to wait until our mortal body is resurrected immortal to possess ETERNAL LIFE. We HAVE ETERNAL LIFE through the Spirit of Christ within when we have been born again. Now, in both life and after death we wait in faith knowing that because we HAVE eternal spiritual life, we shall also experience redemption of our flesh to immortal & incorruptible life again and we will forever be complete living souls with Christ upon the new earth.

 

[ScottA]

All,

What do the scriptures say about the flesh, that many of you would cling to it for eternity with aspirations of the flesh being glorified? Is it not clear to you that the flesh is not transformed, but dissolved with fire as are all the physical elements of this world?

Do you not also know that even within the scriptures, God has set before us both life and death, blessing and cursing?

Is God not spirit and perfect without flesh? Is the flesh not against the spirit, and thus against God?

Yet many of you carry on with interpretations that favor the flesh, as much as calling evil good. Therefore, examine yourself, your heart and your doctrine, that you not perish with the elements of this world--for the time is short.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No. It is written. You should know better.

Cop out response. If it was true you would be able to show us where it indicates as such. This response proves that you are just making things up...again.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Y

All,

What do the scriptures say about the flesh, that many of you would cling to it for eternity with aspirations of the flesh being glorified? Is it not clear to you that the flesh is not transformed, but dissolved with fire as are all the physical elements of this world?

Do you not also know that even within the scriptures, God has set before us both life and death, blessing and cursing?

Is God not spirit and perfect without flesh? Is the flesh not against the spirit, and thus against God?

Yet many of you carry on with interpretations that favor the flesh, as much as calling evil good. Therefore, examine yourself, your heart and your doctrine, that you not perish with the elements of this world--for the time is short.

You speak so much nonsense. Right now we have mortal flesh. That does not mean our immortal bodies can't be made of flesh. But it will be immortal flesh and not like the body we have now. After Jesus was resurrected, He still had flesh. Yet, He was able to appear in a locked home (seemingly) out of nowhere. What do you have against flesh, anyway? Yes, we have a spirit, also, but Paul said our bodies will be changed and you say they will be dissolved. I side with Paul on this.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus (the first) entered into the Spirit in His own order, then Stephen entered into the Spirit (as "one" person also), then Paul clarified the many resurrection passages to alleviate any
confusion, saying "but each 'one' in his own order."

Is that not enough clarification "by the mouth of two or three witnesses"...that everyone should alternatively believe--"oh but no it must be some mass future event instead?"

The order Paul gave was of resurrections unto bodily immortality. He said Christ's resurrection was first and then next in order are those who belong to Christ at His second coming. All of the dead in Christ will be bodily resurrected at the same time when Jesus returns. Your inability to understand even the simplest of concepts in scripture makes me feel sorry for you. You have no spiritual discernment whatsoever. Ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How is He the firstfruit(s) of them that slept?

I already explained this. He was the first to rise from the dead unto bodily immortality. Do you understand that? Agree? So, because of His first resurrection (having part in the first resurrection is to have part in His resurrection), the dead in Christ who belong to Him are guaranteed to also be resurrected unto bodily immortality when He comes again.

That is not true!

Yes, it is! Very clearly! Your lack of discernment regarding this topic matches your level of lack of discernment of salvation and of Satan his angels (demons/devils).

The beloved Epenetus was the firstfruits of Achais unto Christ SPIRITUALLY, not physically. Christ Himself being the firstfruits of them that had died SPIRITUALLY, not physically because Epaenetus had not died but is still among the firstfruits through Christ's Spirit.

Nonsense! The topic in 1 Corinthians 15:20-23 is in relation to bodily resurrections! It couldn't be more clear. Paul continues to write about the body in the verses which follow all the way up to 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 where he talks about the fact that our bodies will be changed at the last trumpet when Jesus comes again.

Romans 16:5 (KJV) Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

This has no relation to 1 Corinthians 15:20-23! You, as Premils often do, are trying to relate unrelated scriptures. Paul said that Christ Himself is the firstfruits and you try to change the text! Sad! Why would you want to sometimes interpret scripture the way Premils do by blatantly twisting the text to fit your beliefs?

 

[ScottA]

Cop out response. If it was true you would be able to show us where it indicates as such. This response proves that you are just making things up...again.

If what I have said is true--and it is--I don't have to show you anything.

As it is, I have quoted plenty, and the reason I have limited it...is I am traveling. Meanwhile, you can man-up and look it up yourself...if you don't already know what is written.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If what I have said is true--and it is--I don't have to show you anything.

Wrong. If you want to be taken seriously on this forum, then you need to back up your claims with scripture. Your words alone are not equivalent to scripture no matter how much you wish that was the case. The fact that you can't show any scripture to back up your claims shows that you can't be taken seriously. Your words and your claims mean nothing without being able to back them up with scripture.

 

[ScottA]

Wrong. If you want to be taken seriously on this forum, then you need to back up your claims with scripture. Your words alone are not equivalent to scripture no matter how much you wish that was the case. The fact that you can't show any scripture to back up your claims shows that you can't be taken seriously. Your words and your claims mean nothing without being able to back them up with scripture.

You don't even understand this.

Biblically speaking, after I say what is given to me from God--after that it's on YOU.