Can the infernalists here explain the purpose of Jesus's forever torture chamber?
- Thread starter RepentingChristian
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Paul wrote that Jesus came to UNITE ALL THINGS TO HIMSELF. Jesus said that the "Gates of Hell" would NOT prevail. But some of you say that Jesus is an incompetent idiot and a loser and that the "Gates of Hell" DO prevail and so Jesus burns his creation alive in unrelenting, torturous, pain, forever and ever. So, why does Jesus inflict merciless suffering on his creation forever? And why do you believe that Jesus is an incompetent idiot and loser?
Ephesians 1:7-10
7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[c] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
Ephesians 1:7-10
7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[c] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
And why do you believe that Jesus was lying when he described people never giving up on the lost?
Luke 15 esv
The Parable of the Lost Sheep
15 Now the tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to hear him. 2 And the Pharisees and the scribes grumbled, saying, “This man receives sinners and eats with them.”
3 So he told them this parable: 4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost.’ 7 Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.
The Parable of the Lost Coin
8 “Or what woman, having ten silver coins, if she loses one coin, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and seek diligently until she finds it? 9 And when she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin that I had lost.’ 10 Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Luke 15 esv
The Parable of the Lost Sheep
15 Now the tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to hear him. 2 And the Pharisees and the scribes grumbled, saying, “This man receives sinners and eats with them.”
3 So he told them this parable: 4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost.’ 7 Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.
The Parable of the Lost Coin
8 “Or what woman, having ten silver coins, if she loses one coin, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and seek diligently until she finds it? 9 And when she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin that I had lost.’ 10 Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
ScottA
Well-Known Member
God Himself has explained from the beginning, well before anyone mocked Him for it:
And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Behold
Well-Known Member
1.) Before Adam was created, "Hell was created for The Devil and His Angels".
2.) After the fall of Adam, the entirety of Humanity became "fallen", and "you are of YOUR FATHER, THE DEVIL".
3.) So, if a person remains a spiritual child of The Devil, and dies, then they initially end up in the place designed for the Devil.
4.) If instead the person trusts in Christ before they die.....then they are "birthed" (Born Again) by a New Spiritual Father, = GOD.. and Heaven becomes their Eternal Home.
A.) So, the simple answer is......whomever is your spiritual Father when you die....... you will go to them.
= If God is your spiritual Father, then you are born again and you go to Heaven when you die........ Whereas, if you still remain.....>"of your faither The Devil", as Jesus explains, then you are not born again and you are not a "Christian" and you died in your sins, unforgiven. Therefore you will remain a child of the Devil after you die and your eternal life then begins in Hell, immediately after you die.
And there is no way out, no 2nd chance, and no way back.
Multiplied thousands who didnt believe in Hell and proudly liked to say so, died and went directly to Hell already today, and now they believe in it.... every single one of them.
Last edited:
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
It beats me how anyone could relish this idea, almost eager to send anyone who disagrees with them to this awful destiny.....and still think of God as loving?
Who but a sadistic fiend would do such a thing?
The Bible never says that he does....all reference to “Gehenna” (erroneously translated as “hell”) is metaphorical.....and his Jewish audience knew exactly what he meant as “Gehenna” featured strongly in their past as a place of fire and torture...but not from God. This is the place where apostate Israel sacrificed their children to the god Molech by putting them into the fire.
God stopped the practice as something abhorrent to him. (Jer 7:30-31)
God commanded that the Valley of Hinnom be converted to the city’s garbage dump, where the fires were kept burning day and night to consume the refuse.
How did this place get mixed up with Christendom’s “hellfire”? Jesus’ reference to Gehenna to a Jew, meant that whatever was cast into Gehenna was never seen again. It was a place where the bodies of those not considered worthy of a resurrection, were cast for disposal....along with the rest of the garbage....it was metaphorical for everlasting death....as Jews did not believe in immortality of the soul, this meant no resurrection, and hence no prospect of ever living again.
When the church adopted the pagan concept of an immortal soul, Gehenna was morphed into the place where the wicked souls would go....”the lake of fire”....but it’s called “the second death” not the second life.
It is not God’s desire to ever give up on anyone as those examples show.....every effort is made to rescue and restore the lost one, (2 Peter 3:9) often portrayed as a young one, as these are more vulnerable to attack by predators. Wolves love the take these precious lambs as they are so defenceless. Baby Christians are also vulnerable....and we all start life as babies...even spiritual babies...then we grow to maturity by being provided the right nourishment.
- Aug 10, 2012
- 6,565
- 7,936
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Gender
- Male
Proverbs 16:9
In their hearts humans plan their course,
but the Lord establishes their steps.
If someone's course leads to Hell, and they stay on it, that is where they will end up.
- Aug 10, 2012
- 6,565
- 7,936
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Gender
- Male
Forever or at least until the second death, which results in the destruction of the soul. There is no word on how quick or slow that second death will be. So I don't preclude it from taking an eternity.
So you don't believe the Parable of the Good Shepherd? You believe that Jesus is incapable of persuading all beings to follow him and that he gives up and throws them into a forever incinerator?
Considering that a majority of Christians believe that Jesus burns people alive forever, why was this moved to the "Unorthodox" forum? Jesus burning people alive forever is a pillar of worldly Christianity.
- Aug 10, 2012
- 6,565
- 7,936
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Gender
- Male
A swine will always return to wallowing. If someone was unwilling to repent in this life why would they repent in the next? Just to gain entry, then it's back to sinning as usual.
So you don't believe that Jesus will unite all things to himself as described in Ephesians 1:7-10. You don't believe that Jesus is like the Good Shepherd who NEVER stops seeking to save the lost.
Fair enough.
So why does Jesus force his creation to suffer forever? What is the purpose?
- Aug 10, 2012
- 6,565
- 7,936
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Gender
- Male
What about Satan and the other fallen angels? Are you saying they will be reunited too?
Those that experience the second death will not be reunited.
Brother, let me respond to your questions with one I asked you earlier. Do you believe that Jesus will be successful at uniting ALL THINGS as mentioned by Paul in Ephesians 1:7-10? I do. Or do you believe that Jesus will fail?
Didn't Jesus declare that the "Gates of Hell" will NOT prevail? Do you believe Jesus? Or do you believe that Jesus fails and that the "Gates of Hell" prevail?
Didn't Jesus say that he came to seek the lost? Didn't Jesus say that he is the "Good Shepherd" and that he NEVER stops searching for the lost?
Jesus is the Lord of ALL creation. Jesus WILL unite ALL THINGS to himself and then deliver the united Kingdom to God the Father as described in 1 Corinthians 15. Remember, EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father.
Infernalist theology is erroneous, unbiblical, illogical, and contradicts God's nature.
- Aug 10, 2012
- 6,565
- 7,936
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Gender
- Male
Satan and the fallen angels will not be reunited with God. They will suffer the second death, which is total destruction. So everything that remains afterwards will be reunited. But that which no longer exists can't be reunited.
- Aug 10, 2012
- 6,565
- 7,936
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Gender
- Male
Jesus succeeds in gathering His sheep. Others are at the mercy of their own masters.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
I do too....but what do you understand this passage to mean?
Eph 1:7-12...
“In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.” (NKJV)
Who is Paul talking to when he says “we” and “us”? It is to the brothers in the congregation of Ephesus....to fellow Christians...not to the world outside.
What do you think is “the mystery of his will”, connected to a “dispensation” which was to occur at a specific time?
Do you understand what that is all about? Who are those “predestined” to gain an “inheritance”?...and what is it that they inherit?
You see, the big picture is the whole picture.....unless we can see the big picture, many things will remain obscure, shrouded in a “mystery” that Christ would explain. We can understand it now because he taught us about the Kingdom in which he was to reign with the assistance of his “saints” or “chosen ones”.
What do you understand about that Kingdom and what its purpose is?
Actually it was “the gates of hades” which the Jews and the first Christians understood to be “the grave”.
So Jesus is saying that death will not defeat God’s purpose. No one who lost their life for defending the truth would miss out on the reward.
Yes, but the lost have to want to be found...humble enough to accept Christ on his terms, not just their own.
So many want to create God in their own image but he will not conform just to please them....we must conform to pease him.
I agree to a point....but the Bible clearly states what many do not wish to believe.
Jesus will rule the whole world of redeemed mankind by means of the Kingdom that God ordained after “the world” of mankind came into existence. Adam and Eve gave all their offspring a bad inheritance.....sin permeates our lives through no fault on our part....Jesus’ sacrifice canceled out sin and provided forgiveness for those who sought God and believed his truth. Not all will accept Jesus as their savior.
But at the same time, God has no purpose in prolonging the punishment to be delivered to those who have no faith or even belief in their Creator, and who therefore just want to do their own thing. These are not the citizens God wants in his Kingdom.....otherwise he might as well leave the world to itself....but we can all see where it’s going...hurtling towards oblivion if man’s rule continues under the devil’s influence. (1John 5:19)
By eliminating all rebels and saving only those who are motivated by love for God and his Son, a peaceful world is guaranteed.....the kind of world God purposed in the beginning, but which got sidetracked by a spirit being who thought too much of his own magnificence. That devil knows his own fate and so do the demon angels who followed him into rebellion, but they are determined to take as many down with them as they can......what better trophies can they have than those who are persuaded to follow a false Christ and a false “Christianity”....? (Matt 7:21-23)
Humans cannot rule themselves independently of their Creator. Haven’t we proven that beyond a shadow of doubt? By dealing with sin and it’s instigator, God can reintroduce his first purpose for the human race and give us back all that our first parents lost for us. (Isa 55:11) The mystery is solved.
Similar threads
